The Gifts of the Spirit

[Ellinas]

This is utterly bizarre.

 

A christian is trying to discuss the validity or otherwise of charismatic ideas with a bunch of apostates.

 

Try and persuade us that christ is the eternal son of the eternal god - that I could understand.  It would be annoyingly predictable behaviour.  But airing an internal christian dispute about whether there is a supernatural capacity to gabble in mediaeval French seems... pointless...  All it does is highlight that Christians can't make up their minds.

[duderonomy]

Ironhorse:

"Gifts of the spirit are not open to personal opinions by teachers, pastors, or believers.

"The scriptures admonish us to "test the spirits" and to rightly divide" the word.

"The scriptures also warn that false teachers will appear and deceive many.

"I do not want to imply that all people involved in these gifts today are evil. No doubt many have been mislead..."

 

Ironhorse, are you sure that you aren't one of the "many" that are being misled about this stuff? You seem to rely on your teachers, pastors, and other believers. Have you ever thought about reading the Bible, without the footnotes and reference and commentary, and making up your own mind?

 

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. You seem to think that God's power petered out when Peter petered out.  

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ironhorse is clearly deceived.  Prophecy, tongues, healing, and divine prosperity are just as real today as god has ever been.

[LogicalFallacy]

5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Ironhorse is clearly deceived.  Prophecy, tongues, healing, and divine prosperity are just as real today as god has ever been.

 

One line and TRP knocks the topic out of the park!

[LogicalFallacy]

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:21 AM, ironhorse said:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18 KJV

 

Almost all New Testament scholars call Mark 16:17-18 a later addition to Mark. Most Bibles add this footnote on this. It does not appear in the earliest manuscripts and the writing style is different. 

 

Are you sure you want to go down the path of bible reliability? Really? Why stop at Mark? We can go right back to Genesis and show how they are merely altered stories from older cultures with the same motifs. How do you know what part of the bible is inspired at what part is merely mans interpolations or ideas?

 

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:21 AM, ironhorse said:

At which point in the Bible does God declare that the time for gifts and signs are over?

 

“Now as for the prophetic gifts, they will not last; unknown languages will become silent, and the gift of knowledge will no longer be needed.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:8  (The Voice)

 

 

IH, my question was when did the bible declare the signs were over - the scripture above is at best future tense and open to interpretation... which is why your Pentecostal brothers think you are wrong.

 

So I ask again, where it the bible does God declare that gifts and signs ended?

 

 

[ironhorse]

I realize I am constantly accused in this forum of “cherry picking” scripture or “twisting” it top fit my opinion. I don’t. I really don’t. You and others are free to accept my word or not.

 “…the scripture above is at best future tense and open to interpretation... which is why your Pentecostal brothers think you are wrong.”

I do not think this subject is open to interpretation. Those today who believe these same gifts as practiced in the early church can be applied now are wrong.  I have discussed this face to face with people who are Pentecostals. It is not an issue of salvation, but it is an issue of what we should be practicing and what practices are harmful to believers and to others viewing the Christian faith.

 

“So I ask again, where it the bible does God declare that gifts and signs ended?”

The scriptures do not give a specific date. The scriptures do say they will cease. They ceased with end of the apostolic age. The time period in history of the Twelve Apostles and ended with the death of John.

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@ironhorse,

 

By not recognizing the power of spiritual gifts, you are committing blasphemy of the holy spirit, which is the unpardonable sin.  This will land you in hell along with the rest of us.  I'm sure your Pentecostal friends explained this to you.  If you didn't listen to them, or accept the truth of the holy spirit's conviction upon you, then it is because you intentionally hardened your heart so you could live in sin and anger at god.

 

This is not open to interpretation or interpolation.  jesus plainly stated, in red letters and the king's own English, that blasphemy against the son of man would be forgiven; but whosoever blasphemes the holy spirit will not be forgiven.  It is bad enough that you encourage others to drink beer and listen to Bob Dylan; that is what a carnal christian does, a worldly, lukewarm "believer" who will be spewed from god's mouth.

 

But to persist in your blasphemy against the holy spirit, to continue committing the unpardonable sin, even after being warned by Pentecostals, who are the keepers and guardians of the only true christianity... this demonstrates your deep-seeded hatred for god.  And puppies.

 

Repent thou therefore this day of the evilness of sin; and turn thou from the wickedness of thy ways.  For the kingdom of heaven is near.  

 

Have a good day,

TheRedneckProfessor

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse wrote...

“So I ask again, where it the bible does God declare that gifts and signs ended?”

The scriptures do not give a specific date. The scriptures do say they will cease. They ceased with end of the apostolic age. The time period in history of the Twelve Apostles and ended with the death of John.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 

If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.  

It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 

For we know in part and we prophesy in part,  

but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

Ironhorse writes four sentences, but only two of them are correct.

He writes that the scriptures do not give a specific date for the cessation of spiritual gifts.  That is correct.  He also writes that the scriptures say that they will cease.  That is also correct.  See verse 8.   He claims that they ceased with the end of the apostolic age.  That is not correct.   He claims that the gifts ceased upon the death of the apostle John.  That is also incorrect.

 

The key to understanding when the scriptures say that the gifts cease can be found in verse 12.

But please read the three preceding verses to see the full picture.  In verse 9 Paul says that the gifts of are incomplete and in verse 10 he explains that this incompleteness will end once completeness arrives.  In verse 11 he explains further.  This incompleteness comes from believers thinking and reasoning  like children.  But this childish thinking gives way to mature thinking and reasoning when their childhood comes to an end.   

 

Paul then explains WHEN this happens.

Childhood ends and maturity begins for each believer when they cease to know in part and come to know fully.  When they see things as they really are, as if they were seeing them face to face, rather than reflected in a mirror.  So, the childhood of each believer - when they know in part, understand in part and prophesy in part - comes to an end when each believer sees God, face to face and knows Him fully.  Just as He knows them fully.   For each believer, that day is when they die.  They do not know God fully and do not see His face before that moment.

 

Scripture confirms this.

1 Timothy 6 : 16.    God alone is immortal and He lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

John 1 : 18.    No one has ever seen God, but Jesus, who is Himself God, has made God known.

1 John 4 : 12   No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us.

 

This is where Ironhorse is tripping up.

Yes, the scriptures don't give a specific date for when the gifts will cease, but they also say that they will cease.  Ironhorse resolves this conundrum by adding a specific date to scripture, when none is given.  He adds in what isn't there.  Scripture itself doesn't give him the answer he wants - so he imposes one on the text.   The death of the apostle John.  That is Ironhorse's answer.  But that isn't scripture's answer.  The answer is within 1 Corinthians 13, but he cannot see it or perhaps he even denies it.

 

Each believers' usage of the gifts of the spirit comes to an end when they no longer need them.

That time is when they come to know God fully, when they see Him face to face.  When they change from thinking like children and start thinking like mature adults.  Prophecy, tongues and gifts of knowledge aren't needed in God's presence.  THAT is why the gifts will pass away.  The gifts are for this world, not for heaven.  THIS explains why scripture says that the gifts will cease, but gives no specific date for when that happens.   The gifts cease individually, for each believer, when their individual need for them comes to an end.  For them, the gifts pass away when they pass away.  This is the proper, scriptural resolution of that conundrum.  

 

Incompleteness = this life.

Completeness = the next life.

The gifts of the spirit are for this life.

The gifts are not for the next life.

Childhood = this life.

Adulthood = the next life.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

8 hours ago, ironhorse said:

I realize I am constantly accused in this forum of “cherry picking” scripture or “twisting” it top fit my opinion. I don’t. I really don’t. You and others are free to accept my word or not.

 

That's your response to dealing with bible inaccuracies and unreliability? Ok.

 

I rest my case. I have nothing further to add your honour.

 

8 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 “…the scripture above is at best future tense and open to interpretation... which is why your Pentecostal brothers think you are wrong.”

I do not think this subject is open to interpretation. Those today who believe these same gifts as practiced in the early church can be applied now are wrong.  I have discussed this face to face with people who are Pentecostals. It is not an issue of salvation, but it is an issue of what we should be practicing and what practices are harmful to believers and to others viewing the Christian faith.

 

The fact that you are thinking that and others think that it is shows its open to interpretation  

 

8 hours ago, ironhorse said:

“So I ask again, where it the bible does God declare that gifts and signs ended?”

The scriptures do not give a specific date. The scriptures do say they will cease. They ceased with end of the apostolic age. The time period in history of the Twelve Apostles and ended with the death of John.

 

BAA has done an excellent job with this one, far better than I can.

 

But show me your authority as to how you get from "they will cease" to specifically "They ceased with the apostle John".

 

Show me in the scriptures where it says that gifts and signs ceased with John. Or perhaps this is your interpretation?

[sdelsolray]

Of course, there's always the "interpretation" that no gifts of the sprit ever occurred as is always the case with fictional writing.

[bornagainathiest]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

Of course, there's always the "interpretation" that no gifts of the sprit ever occurred as is always the case with fictional writing.

 

Agreed.  The Bible is fiction.

 

However, I'm playing devil's advocate in this thread.

Specifically, by using the internal logic of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians to demonstrate that Ironhorse's understanding of scripture is wrong.  Even a work of fiction needs some internal logic to convey it's message.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

Of course, there's always the "interpretation" that no gifts of the sprit ever occurred as is always the case with fictional writing.

 

Oh I don't think we need to interpret that. We can reliably infer it by looking at case data that exists for current claims of religious gifts. Nothing has been discovered that would actually link anything any human does to an actual spirit.

 

Reminds me of what someone said: For 1600 years God interfered wildly in the affairs of man regarding ancient Israel and the early church. Signs galore. Man learns the ability to document stuff around 100 CE and BAM... God ceases signs for the next 1900 years. A bit convenient.

[sdelsolray]

I was placing a bit of reality into the discussion.  I get it, BAA, about playing along with the fiction.  And yes, LF, inserting reality is not an interpretation.

 

Humoring IH, who actually believes the fiction, or at least a certain interpretation of it, in an attempt to get him to rationally inspect and question that belief, is a waste of time.  Of course, lurkers will likely learn something from the exchange.

[bornagainathiest]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

I was placing a bit of reality into the discussion.  I get it, BAA, about playing along with the fiction.  And yes, LF, inserting reality is not an interpretation.

 

Humoring IH, who actually believes the fiction, or at least a certain interpretation of it, in an attempt to get him to rationally inspect and question that belief, is a waste of time.  Of course, lurkers will likely learn something from the exchange.

 

Indeed. 

 

I know that you get it, sdelsolray.  It just seemed to me to be the right and proper thing to do.  That is, to openly declare my hand and plainly state what I'm doing in this thread, lest there be any confusion.  

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[ironhorse]

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

6 hours ago, ironhorse said:

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

 

 

 

With all due respect Ironhorse, I'm skeptical of your claim that you'd have to reject the Christian faith.

 

You have a long, long history of deflection, dodging and avoiding any issue that you don't want to face up to.

 

I should know because I've relentlessly pressed you for direct and honest answers to simple questions - and you've done your utmost to avoid answering them.

 

So, tomorrow we will see if you really are a man of your word.

 

Or not.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Ironhorse,

 

It's really very simple to follow Paul's logic in chapter 13 of 1 Corinthians.  

 

13  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 

2  And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 

3  If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4  Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 

5  or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 

6  it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 

7  Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 

9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 

10  but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 

11  When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 

12  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.  Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13  So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

He describes two different times, without actually saying when (historically) they occur.

All he does say is that one follows on directly from the other,  with the second succeeding and doing away with the first.  The first is a time when the spiritual gifts are in use, albeit incompletely and imperfectly.  This is a time of childish immaturity, when things aren't seen, understood or known fully.   Paul describes three signs that mark the ending of this first time and which signal the beginning of the second.  God's spiritual gifts cease to be used, the earlier childish ways are given up and everything that was imperfectly known and understood is now fully and perfectly known and understood.  

  

Now, you claim that the spiritual gifts ceased two thousand years ago, with the death of the apostle John.

If that's so, then according to what Paul has clearly explained above, John's death marked the beginning of this second time.  The time when three things happen.  The time when the gifts of the spirit cease, when the ways of childhood are given up and when everything is perfectly known and understood.  

 

So, can we test to see if this is so? 

The answer is Yes, we can.  We can definitely and definitively know if you are right to claim that we are living in the post-Apostolic age.  Paul has given us an ironclad way of doing so.  Of the three signs he wrote about, two (the gifts of the spirit and the spiritual maturity of Christians) are open to debate and interpretation.  But the third is not open to doubt.  If we are indeed living this second time, then just as Paul describes, Christians will perfectly know and understand all things.  This is something that they cannot fake.  They either do or they don't.  There's no gray zone in the text that allows any fudging or equivocation.  It's either perfect or imperfect.

 

Ok, now over to you, Ironhorse.

Do you have perfect knowledge and understanding of all things, just as God has perfect knowledge and understanding of you?

If you do, please confirm this by answering, Yes.  

 

If you don't, then by the logic of Paul's words to the Corinthians, you must accept that we are not living in the post-Apostolic age.   

That the gifts of the spirit (including healing) are still in use today.  That the death of the apostle John did not mark the cessation of the gifts.  That you were wrong to claim that the spiritual gifts are no longer given to Christians by God.  That your family and friends were not healed, even though God could have healed them.   That you must now make good on your own words.

 

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

 

I now leave this with you and patiently await your reply.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[ironhorse]

“For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:12 

The “now” is my present time. I can see only through a glass darkly now. I see and understand parts, but not everything.

The “then” is when I meets “face to face” with Christ.

[bornagainathiest]

2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

“For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:12 

The “now” is my present time. I can see only through a glass darkly now. I see and understand parts, but not everything.

The “then” is when I meets “face to face” with Christ.

 

Exactly.

 

If you see imperfectly NOW, then according to Paul you do not have perfect knowledge and perfect understanding - which are the signs of the post-Apostolic Age.

 

Therefore, we still must be in the Apostolic Age.

 

Which you say finished two thousand years ago, when John died.

 

So now, to keep to your word, you must reject Jesus and your Christian faith.

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

On 24/11/2017 at 4:37 PM, ironhorse said:

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

 

 

Ironhorse,

 

I know exactly why you didn't see the healing you genuinely prayed for.

 

It has nothing to do with which age we are living in.

 

Would you like to know the answer?

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted Saturday at 05:39 PM

  On 11/25/2017 at 4:38 PM, ironhorse said:

“For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:12 

The “now” is my present time. I can see only through a glass darkly now. I see and understand parts, but not everything.

The “then” is when I meets “face to face” with Christ.

 

Exactly.

If you see imperfectly NOW, then according to Paul you do not have perfect knowledge and perfect understanding - which are the signs of the post-Apostolic Age.

Therefore, we still must be in the Apostolic Age.

Which you say finished two thousand years ago, when John died.

So now, to keep to your word, you must reject Jesus and your Christian faith.

.

.

.

Bumped for Ironhorse's attention!

[Jeff]

On 11/24/2017 at 11:37 AM, ironhorse said:

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

...

I would be bitter and angry at God...

 

Bingo!!!

Except eventually you would no longer be angry with god once you realize the rest of the answer.  No need being angry at a myth. 

[LogicalFallacy]

On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:37 AM, ironhorse said:

If the scriptures taught that the Gift of Healing (as practiced by Jesus and the Apostles) were for all believers throughout history, I would have to reject the Christian faith.

Because I do not see it happening today.

I have family and friends who genuinely sought for and prayed for healing. They all died.

I would be bitter and angry at God, if I had placed all my faith and trust in Him for a miracles and the miracles never happened.

 

So essentially you rely on ad hoc reasoning and interpretation to justify your belief in God because you can tell, as can we all, that there is no sign of God doing anything anywhere at the request of anyone!

 

What's more you are relying on stories of apostles doing signs in a book transmitted through the church, known to be full of errors and interpolations.

 

 

[ironhorse]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 6:39 PM, sdelsolray said:

I was placing a bit of reality into the discussion.  I get it, BAA, about playing along with the fiction.  And yes, LF, inserting reality is not an interpretation.

 

Humoring IH, who actually believes the fiction, or at least a certain interpretation of it, in an attempt to get him to rationally inspect and question that belief, is a waste of time.  Of course, lurkers will likely learn something from the exchange.

 

I have questioned charismatic teachings on the Gifts of the Spirit. I have watched hours of so called miracle services, I’ve read their books, I attended an Ernest Angley healing service. I have discussed this issue face to face with Pentecostals and online.

I also studied the other view before making a final decision.

I hope we all learn something from this these posts and exchanges of viewpoints in this thread.

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

... I hope we all learn something from this these posts and exchanges of viewpoints in this thread.

Really?

what do you hope to learn from this?