The Gifts of the Spirit

[bornagainathiest]

On 11/27/2017 at 5:22 PM, bornagainathiest said:

Posted Saturday at 05:39 PM

  On 11/25/2017 at 4:38 PM, ironhorse said:

“For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:12 

The “now” is my present time. I can see only through a glass darkly now. I see and understand parts, but not everything.

The “then” is when I meets “face to face” with Christ.

 

Exactly.

If you see imperfectly NOW, then according to Paul you do not have perfect knowledge and perfect understanding - which are the signs of the post-Apostolic Age.

Therefore, we still must be in the Apostolic Age.

Which you say finished two thousand years ago, when John died.

So now, to keep to your word, you must reject Jesus and your Christian faith.

.

.

.

Bumped for Ironhorse's attention!

 

Re-bumped for Ironhorse's attention!

[ironhorse]

2 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

Re-bumped for Ironhorse's attention!

 

The Apostolic Age is the time in which the Apostles of Christ lived and preached. It accounts for approximately 70 years and extended from the foundation of the Church on the day of Pentecost on 30 AD to the departure of John the Apostle, 100 AD.

 

The following are three examples of commentary on 1 Corinthian 13:12. There are many other commentaries, notes, books, sermons to support the view that the Gifts as practiced by the Apostles have ended. A prayerful and careful reading of the scriptures confirms this view as correct.  

 

The apostle pursues his former theme, comparing the imperfect state of believers, as to knowledge in this life, with what shall be in the life that is to come. In this life it is as in a looking glass, (where we only see the images and imperfect representations of things), and darkly, in a riddle; it is but a little knowledge that we have, and what we have we get with a great deal of difficulty; but in heaven we shall have such knowledge as two men have who see one another face to face, and shall know God fully, in some measure, though not in the same degree, of the fulness and perfections wherein God knoweth us.

~ Matthew Poole’s Commetary

 

In the present age, God’s people are not perfect, and their relationship with God is not yet complete. They desire to know God and to see him. Paul expressed that desire again in Philippians 3:8-11.

Of course, God has already done many wonderful things in the lives of his people (6:11). He has saved them and he has changed their lives completely (2 Corinthians 5:17). He has given his Holy Spirit to them. By his Spirit, they know about the future plans that God has for them (2:9-12).

So Christians know that, in the future age, they really will see God’s face (Revelation 22:4). It is interesting to compare that verse with Exodus 33:18-23. God did not allow even such a holy man as Moses to see his (God’s) face. However, in the future age, God’s people will see his face. Nothing will separate them from God.

~ Keith Simons

 

Hence, it means, as here, obscurely, darkly, imperfectly. Little is known; much is left to conjecture; a very accurate account of most of that which passes for knowledge. Compared with heaven, our knowledge here much resembles the obscure intimations in an enigma compared with clear statement and manifest truth.

But then - In the fuller revelations in heaven.

Face to face - As when one looks upon an object openly, and not through an obscure and dark medium. It here means, therefore, "clearly, without obscurity."

~ Barnes Notes on the Bible

 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

On ‎21‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:21 AM, ironhorse said:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18 KJV

 

Almost all New Testament scholars call Mark 16:17-18 a later addition to Mark. Most Bibles add this footnote on this. It does not appear in the earliest manuscripts and the writing style is different. 

 

At which point in the Bible does God declare that the time for gifts and signs are over?

 

“Now as for the prophetic gifts, they will not last; unknown languages will become silent, and the gift of knowledge will no longer be needed.”

~ 1 Corinthians 13:8  (The Voice)

 

And how do you respond to your Pentecostal brothers and sisters who sincerely believe they have gifts of the spirit?

 

I treat them as fellow believers. If I am asked, I will tell them the viewpoint I think the scriptures speak and if they wish, we discuss.  

 

@ironhorse In response to my question about Mark 16:17-18 you said it was an interpolation therefore not valid.

 

Consider the verse below - John 14:12, Jesus speaking:

 

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

Whoever believes Ironhorse. Not "only the apolstles" but whoever. Jesus words himself. And not only do the works he did, but greater things!

 

Is this also an interpolation Ironhorse or do you deny your saviours words? Do you put precedence of man (Paul) above Jesus?

[ironhorse]

19 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

@ironhorse In response to my question about Mark 16:17-18 you said it was an interpolation therefore not valid.

 

Consider the verse below - John 14:12, Jesus speaking:

 

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

Whoever believes Ironhorse. Not "only the apolstles" but whoever. Jesus words himself. And not only do the works he did, but greater things!

 

Is this also an interpolation Ironhorse or do you deny your saviours words? Do you put precedence of man (Paul) above Jesus?

 

 

Charismatic teachers look to the above verse to validate their teaching. They see it as a proof text for the notion that present-day believers can perform miraculous signs and wonders—even more spectacular than Jesus Himself. It is one of their most popular verses to quote.

 Are they correct or did Jesus mean something else by greater works?

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

When some fictional  character like Jesus declares that we can do all the fictional miracles like he did...and even more... but then we find out we can't really do those things..and even less, we can do a few things. Here's a couple possibilities:

 

1. Decide that Jesus was an idiot. Or fictional. Which would maybe end your faith if you were Christian.

 

 

2. We could 'interpret' what Jesus said to make it fall in line with reality. Just water down scripture like John MacArthur did in that  video. He dis-empowers his own savior's words and empowers his listeners with epic sounding , yet mundane works... 

 

But one doesn't need the holy spirit in their heart or 'possess the truth' to go door to door peddling Christianity. Any idiot can do that.

John 14:12 is a dangerous scripture for pastors because Jesus' own words could lead one away from the church. Churches want you to be dependent on them (and give them money). If you can do works greater than Jesus, why bother going to church? Why bother being a Christian? That's church busting thought there. Then it comes to mind that you can't really do any of these supernatural things anyway. More church busting.

 

John MacArthur wants you to depend on his words ... and give him money. So he has to make up some palatable baloney for those believers who might be starting to think a little too much.

 

At 00:50 on the video MacArthur further disempowers his own savior by saying that Jesus area of recruitment was limited to one geographical area.  Jesus, limited?

 

First IH denies John 14:12 by saying all that works stuff ended with the apostolic age by like 100 AD. Now he's saying , "Ok ok, works are still a thing, but the only power you get is the power of salesmanship" .... that's not what John 14:12 says, IH ... and Mr MacArthur.

[sdelsolray]

On 11/29/2017 at 6:24 AM, ironhorse said:

 

I have questioned charismatic teachings on the Gifts of the Spirit. I have watched hours of so called miracle services, I’ve read their books, I attended an Ernest Angley healing service. I have discussed this issue face to face with Pentecostals and online.

I also studied the other view before making a final decision.

...

 

Ironhorse the Scholar™ demonstrates the depth of his research.  Note how questioning whether the miracle stories from the first century CE actually occurred is not included in his investigation.  He just assumes they occurred and is only concerned with whether they occur now.  Having concluded they do not occur now should raise the question of whether they ever occurred.  But it doesn't, at least not with Ironhorse.  This is yet another example of how religious indoctrination atrophies the believer's brain.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

Charismatic teachers look to the above verse to validate their teaching. They see it as a proof text for the notion that present-day believers can perform miraculous signs and wonders—even more spectacular than Jesus Himself. It is one of their most popular verses to quote.

 Are they correct or did Jesus mean something else by greater works?

 

 

How are they any different than you when you look at the exact same scriptures to validate the beliefs you have?

 

 

@ironhorse

[midniterider]

Real people do much more spectacular things than Jesus did...cuz Jesus aint real. LoL. So I suppose part of that scripture is correct.

[LogicalFallacy]

On 12/2/2017 at 4:56 AM, ironhorse said:

 

 Are they correct or did Jesus mean something else by greater works?

 

Well we don't know because we can't ask him can we... or perhaps you can talk to Jesus for us?

 

We have to take the words at their face value and the given context and not apply our own ad hoc interpretations in order to satisfy some belief issue.

 

You are essentially trying to double guess Jesus words and using other men's interpretations.

 

Ask a dozen denominations their interpretation and you'll get 13 different answers. The fact is Jesus said you'll do these works - he is talking about the miracles he did in his life.

[ironhorse]

On ‎12‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 12:30 PM, midniterider said:

When some fictional  character like Jesus declares that we can do all the fictional miracles like he did...and even more... but then we find out we can't really do those things..and even less, we can do a few things. Here's a couple possibilities:

 

1. Decide that Jesus was an idiot. Or fictional. Which would maybe end your faith if you were Christian.

 

 

2. We could 'interpret' what Jesus said to make it fall in line with reality. Just water down scripture like John MacArthur did in that  video. He dis-empowers his own savior's words and empowers his listeners with epic sounding , yet mundane works... 

 

But one doesn't need the holy spirit in their heart or 'possess the truth' to go door to door peddling Christianity. Any idiot can do that.

John 14:12 is a dangerous scripture for pastors because Jesus' own words could lead one away from the church. Churches want you to be dependent on them (and give them money). If you can do works greater than Jesus, why bother going to church? Why bother being a Christian? That's church busting thought there. Then it comes to mind that you can't really do any of these supernatural things anyway. More church busting.

 

John MacArthur wants you to depend on his words ... and give him money. So he has to make up some palatable baloney for those believers who might be starting to think a little too much.

 

At 00:50 on the video MacArthur further disempowers his own savior by saying that Jesus area of recruitment was limited to one geographical area.  Jesus, limited?

 

First IH denies John 14:12 by saying all that works stuff ended with the apostolic age by like 100 AD. Now he's saying , "Ok ok, works are still a thing, but the only power you get is the power of salesmanship" .... that's not what John 14:12 says, IH ... and Mr MacArthur.

 

 

"John MacArthur wants you to depend on his words ... and give him money. So he has to make up some palatable baloney for those believers who might be starting to think a little too much."

Accusing John MacArthur of being a slick snake oil salesman out to fleece people of their money is as far stretch. If you can find a video or quote where he is begging for a donation, please post it. And as far as him “making up stuff”, if he is giving you his opinion, he will say so, but if he is speaking of what the scriptures say, he will give you the scripture. His teaching methods are good examples for believers or seekers who do think, ask questions, and study the scriptures.

 

At 00:50 on the video MacArthur further disempowers his own savior by saying that Jesus area of recruitment was limited to one geographical area.  Jesus, limited?

Jesus was limited to one geographical area. As the promised Messiah of the Jewish people his ministry was to be given to them first.  

 

First IH denies John 14:12 by saying all that works stuff ended with the apostolic age by like 100 AD. Now he's saying , "Ok ok, works are still a thing, but the only power you get is the power of salesmanship" .... that's not what John 14:12 says, IH ... and Mr MacArthur.

 

We all decide what we will believe.  My purpose here is to present another viewpoint, which I view as scriptural. If some want to continue to think that all the teachers and the Reverends of “the Give me all Your Money and Receive a Miracle” is scriptural, that is their decision.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

16 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

Accusing John MacArthur of being a slick snake oil salesman out to fleece people of their money is as far stretch. If you can find a video or quote where he is begging for a donation, please post it. And as far as him “making up stuff”, if he is giving you his opinion, he will say so, but if he is speaking of what the scriptures say, he will give you the scripture. His teaching methods are good examples for believers or seekers who do think, ask questions, and study the scriptures.

 

 

 

He is a pastor (which means he sells imaginary BS purporting it to be real), has a web radio ministry, website and sells religious books.

 

https://www.gty.org/store/products/books/none/1/40

 

You can set up automatic donations to John MacArthur with this link: https://www.gty.org/donate/automaticgiving

 

Here's another fun link. https://tictocministries.wordpress.com/2015/05/05/the-john-macarthur-exception/

 

 

 

 

[sdelsolray]

Follow the money.

[ironhorse]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

He is a pastor (which means he sells imaginary BS purporting it to be real), has a web radio ministry, website and sells religious books.

 

https://www.gty.org/store/products/books/none/1/40

 

You can set up automatic donations to John MacArthur with this link: https://www.gty.org/donate/automaticgiving

 

Here's another fun link. https://tictocministries.wordpress.com/2015/05/05/the-john-macarthur-exception/

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is your opinion he is selling imaginary bs, you are free to your opinion.

 

I disagree. 

 

Here's my reply on the "follow the money" idea and then I'm back to some other comments and questions.

 

“…where he is begging for a donation” was my point.

I have visited his site. Sure, he has books for sale, sure he has a place to donate, sure he is paid a salary. I suggest reading his article on the biblical teaching on giving. He is NOT in the camp of the MONEY GRABBERS seen on most religious television.

 

As far as how the money is spent.

From Charity Navigator ( a non-John John MacArthur site) 

 Grace to You

Financial Performance Metrics

 

Program Expenses

(Percent of the charity's total expenses spent on the programs

and services it delivers)

83.5%

 

Administrative Expenses

13.7%

 

Fundraising Expenses

2.6%

 

Fundraising Efficiency

$0.02

 

Working Capital Ratio (years)

0.87

 

Program Expenses Growth

4.5%

 

Liabilities to Assets

6.5%

 

https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=5877 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

On 12/1/2017 at 6:42 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

How are they any different than you when you look at the exact same scriptures to validate the beliefs you have?

 

 

@ironhorse

Answer the question, @ironhorse.

[ironhorse]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 7:06 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Answer the question, @ironhorse.

 

How are they any different than you when you look at the exact same scriptures to validate the beliefs you have?

Answer the question, @ironhorse.

 

First, I do not approach the scriptures with “my beliefs” and then try to validate them by cherry picking or reading into the text that which it does not say.

Some verses are difficult to understand. Other verses are more easily comprehended.

For example, what event is this scripture talking about?

 

"That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

~ Matthew 24:40-41 (NIV)

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

How are they any different than you when you look at the exact same scriptures to validate the beliefs you have?

Answer the question, @ironhorse.

 

First, I do not approach the scriptures with “my beliefs” and then try to validate them by cherry picking or reading into the text that which it does not say.

Some verses are difficult to understand. Other verses are more easily comprehended.

For example, what event is this scripture talking about?

 

"That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

~ Matthew 24:40-41 (NIV)

 

You still haven't answered the question.  THEY do exactly the same thing.  How are you different from them?

[sdelsolray]

8 hours ago, ironhorse said:

...

I do not approach the scriptures with “my beliefs” and then try to validate them by cherry picking or reading into the text that which it does not say.

...

 

This is funny.

[duderonomy]

6 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

 

6 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

14 hours ago, ironhorse said:

I do not approach the scriptures with “my beliefs” and then try to validate them by cherry picking or reading into the text that which it does not say.

...

 

This is funny.

 

I think it's true. Ironhorse doesn't approach the scriptures with his beliefs. He approaches them with the beliefs of others firmly in place.

 

I've said several times here over the years that I got tired of the footnotes, the books about the Bible, the tapes, the radio shows, the TV preachers and all of it, and bought myself a King James Bible that was text only. Not even cross references in the middle of the pages.

I read that thing a lot, and that's how I lost my faith. It was just me and the Bible. 

 

I wish Ironhorse had the guts to do that, whether he would have the same outcome or not.

[midniterider]

On 12/8/2017 at 5:32 AM, ironhorse said:

 

How are they any different than you when you look at the exact same scriptures to validate the beliefs you have?

Answer the question, @ironhorse.

 

First, I do not approach the scriptures with “my beliefs” and then try to validate them by cherry picking or reading into the text that which it does not say.

 

John 14:12 - Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

Jesus raised the dead so believing Christians should be able to raise the dead. Without reading into the text that which it does not say, why can't Christians 'really' raise the dead?

[midniterider]

21 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

I think it's true. Ironhorse doesn't approach the scriptures with his beliefs. He approaches them with the beliefs of others firmly in place.

 

I've said several times here over the years that I got tired of the footnotes, the books about the Bible, the tapes, the radio shows, the TV preachers and all of it, and bought myself a King James Bible that was text only. Not even cross references in the middle of the pages.

I read that thing a lot, and that's how I lost my faith. It was just me and the Bible. 

 

I wish Ironhorse had the guts to do that, whether he would have the same outcome or not.

 

The fact that so much apologetic commentary exists is an indicator that the Bible doesnt really make look God look like a very nice feller.

[sdelsolray]

22 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

 

I think it's true. Ironhorse doesn't approach the scriptures with his beliefs. He approaches them with the beliefs of others firmly in place.

 

I've said several times here over the years that I got tired of the footnotes, the books about the Bible, the tapes, the radio shows, the TV preachers and all of it, and bought myself a King James Bible that was text only. Not even cross references in the middle of the pages.

I read that thing a lot, and that's how I lost my faith. It was just me and the Bible. 

 

I wish Ironhorse had the guts to do that, whether he would have the same outcome or not.

Good point.  IH's frequent, "Hey look at this Christian's opinion...I agree with it" demonstrates, as his other posts have demonstrated, a blend of his decades of indoctrination and his inability and refusal to think for himself.

 

Still, his post was funny.  He pretends.

[ironhorse]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 2:34 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You still haven't answered the question.  THEY do exactly the same thing.  How are you different from them?

 

I was answering your question. One way was to have you answer a question. You may have even answered correctly.

Here it is again:

For example, what event is this scripture talking about?

  "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."

~ Matthew 24:40-41 (NIV)

 

I do not know how you would have answered the question.

So, I will give the answer I had for this verse years ago. It’s about the rapture. This is what the Larry Norman song said, it was the “Late Great Planet Earth” years, and the Christian movies like “A thief in the Night” were being shown in churches. I heard this verse used many times as being the rapture of the believers.

But several years later I came across this verse in Luke: 

 

I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

“Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

~ Luke 17:34-37 (NIV)

 

Reading that in Luke started me asking a lot more questions about what I thought I knew about the return of Christ.

My point is: You cannot always base understanding  on just one verse, but to reference it with other verses. This is one of the essential methods one must use for to correctly understand scriptures.

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, ironhorse said:

{Gibberish}

My point is: You cannot always base understanding  on just one verse, but to reference it with other verses. This is one of the essential methods one must use for to correctly understand scriptures.

 

 

So, you reference other scriptures to better understand what you already believe.  Which means you do "approach the scriptures with 'my beliefs' and then try to validate them".  Which is EXACTLY what those other guys (who are wrong) also do.  So, again, I must pose the question, what makes you any different from them?  Please try to answer the question this time.

[duderonomy]

23 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

The fact that so much apologetic commentary exists is an indicator that the Bible doesnt really make look God look like a very nice feller.

 

It also makes it obvious that one can make the Bible say anything and fit anyone's idea of what Biblegod should be like. I can't wait to see IH's response to the Prof's question.

I'm sure Ironhorse is searching the internet right now to find someone's answer.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

27 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

It also makes it obvious that one can make the Bible say anything and fit anyone's idea of what Biblegod should be like. I can't wait to see IH's response to the Prof's question.

I'm sure Ironhorse is searching the internet right now to find someone's answer.  

And I'm sure that "someone" probably came up with the answer by approaching the scripture with his/her beliefs and then trying to validate them.  Which means the answer is wrong.  Unless Ironhorse agrees with it.