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SeaJay

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The non-apologetic point of view, at least mine anyhow, is God is a colossal dick and not worthy of my praise. 

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As far as what the actual term 'evil' might mean, I don't think either point of view can be proven right or wrong (believer or nonbeliever) because there are so many meanings the Hebrew word can have (morally evil, disaster, etc). 

 

That said, the word evil is used in opposition to the word good ('well-being' in Hebrew). Well being doesn't really have connotations of moral evil, well being means things like hearty, hale, healthy, whole, robust, etc. So it seems to me that evil used in this context means disaster, calamity, misery, etc, and only to the person who is rebellious against God. I don't think it is about creating evil in a moral sense. It's more similar to 'Dis-ease' being in opposition to 'Ease' than evil being in opposition to good. At least that's what I think.

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7 hours ago, SeaJay said:

As far as what the actual term 'evil' might mean, I don't think either point of view can be proven right or wrong (believer or nonbeliever) because there are so many meanings the Hebrew word can have (morally evil, disaster, etc). 

 

That said, the word evil is used in opposition to the word good ('well-being' in Hebrew). Well being doesn't really have connotations of moral evil, well being means things like hearty, hale, healthy, whole, robust, etc. So it seems to me that evil used in this context means disaster, calamity, misery, etc, and only to the person who is rebellious against God. I don't think it is about creating evil in a moral sense. It's more similar to 'Dis-ease' being in opposition to 'Ease' than evil being in opposition to good. At least that's what I think.

What do you think is the god of the Bible's primary motivation with the universe?

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On 10/18/2017 at 4:39 PM, TrueScotsman said:

What do you think is the god of the Bible's primary motivation with the universe?

You mean the entire realm of matter, the space between and everything else? 

 

No idea. But if it were just the solar system I'd still say no idea, because I'd have nothing else to compare it to. I mean, if someone said why is it so big, I'd ask, in comparison to what? Same with, 'why is it so small?' My reply would be the same, small as compared to what? I'm only familiar with this universe (and an infinitesimally small part of it). I am reluctant to say 'It is what it is' because that sounds dismissive, but that's how I see things. 

 

That said, there is a part of me that thinks 'Wow! That's a whole lot of creation outside our world - what's it for?'

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Still here. 

 

Last month or so I've been doing pretty good. Still got the fear but it's much controlled now. I can get on with my life. That's the thing with all of this; when I'm frantic with anxiety I'm reading all sorts of non-religious material in an attempt to alleviate my fears, but when I'm feeling better, and might use that time to do some calm thinking and reading, and possibly coming to a final solution, I tend to just get on with my life and leave all thoughts of religion behind. 

 

Anyway, I hope you all have an awesome holiday period!

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15 minutes ago, SeaJay said:

Still here. 

 

Last month or so I've been doing pretty good. Still got the fear but it's much controlled now. I can get on with my life. That's the thing with all of this; when I'm frantic with anxiety I'm reading all sorts of non-religious material in an attempt to alleviate my fears, but when I'm feeling better, and might use that time to do some calm thinking and reading, and possibly coming to a final solution, I tend to just get on with my life and leave all thoughts of religion behind. 

 

Anyway, I hope you all have an awesome holiday period!

This is awesome to hear SJ! Keep posting. Keep reading. It really does get better and better every day. It's one foot forward and 2 back sometimes but it is worth all the pain and effort one has to deal with when deconverting!  Good to hear from you. So glad you are starting to heal a bit!

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Hi @SeaJay Good to hear from you. We hadn't heard in a while and I was getting worried.

 

Remember you are always welcome to pop in and ask question, or pop into our chat channel and talk... about anything really.

 

Have a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year. Stay safe.

 

LF

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Quite a bad day today. Old fears and all that

 

This is why I don't want to believe; why I try to ruin my faith. The anxiety and fear is debilitating 

 

Whenever I think I'm over it all, something sledges me and I'm back to square one

 

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2 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Quite a bad day today. Old fears and all that

 

This is why I don't want to believe; why I try to ruin my faith. The anxiety and fear is debilitating 

 

Whenever I think I'm over it all, something sledges me and I'm back to square one

 

 

SeaJay, hang in there my friend. Many people on this board go through what you are going through right now. When your logical brain kicks in and pushes out the fear you will feel better. I went through the exact same thing. Brainwashing go very deep. It will get better. Keep posting even if you feel emotional. We're right here for you.

 

(hug)

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12 minutes ago, Margee said:

 

SeaJay, hang in there my friend. Many people on this board go through what you are going through right now. When your logical brain kicks in and pushes out the fear you will feel better. I went through the exact same thing. Brainwashing go very deep. It will get better. Keep posting even if you feel emotional. We're right here for you.

 

(hug)

Thank you Margee

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12 minutes ago, SeaJay said:

Thank you Margee

As florduh used to say to me all the time, ''Go do something fun today'' so I pass that along to you. Get your mind off things for awhile.

 

(hug)

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On 9/2/2017 at 9:31 AM, SeaJay said:

I just can't fathom how ex Christians get over the fear of being wrong and the prospect of hell. I feel trapped. Sometimes I feel like screaming my lungs out 

 

 

A just and merciful God would understand human frailty and forgive you. And if not, do you want to worship an unjust God?

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I'm sorry for my unfeeling words the other day.  I felt bad about myself and took it out on others.  I forgot about your pain and anxiety.  

Once you're out of the Christian indoctrination sphere things can be seen with much greater clarity.  Years after I left Christianity behind me a realized all the more how ridiculous it is.  It is a cult.  Hell is just a way of scaring the shit out of any who do not want to tango.  It is a human method and you see how well it works.  

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14 minutes ago, SerenelyBlue said:

I'm sorry for my unfeeling words the other day.  I felt bad about myself and took it out on others.  I forgot about your pain and anxiety.  

Once you're out of the Christian indoctrination sphere things can be seen with much greater clarity.  Years after I left Christianity behind me a realized all the more how ridiculous it is.  It is a cult.  Hell is just a way of scaring the shit out of any who do not want to tango.  It is a human method and you see how well it works.  

Thanks SB, and no worries. We all get bad days and say things we don't mean. 

 

The problem with my belief system, is that the hell part does an unbelievably good job of scaring the life out of me. It lessens, and I keep researching. But, because of my mental health (long story short), this is going to take a long time, and I'm not even sure of the outcome. 

 

Day by day as they say. 

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One of the things that is becoming clearer to me as I read and think more is just how the whole religious system depends upon self-sabotage. In that way, Christianity sabotages itself, since Jesus commands that we be compassionate and caring towards others, yet in order to convince people that they need a savior, they must be convinced that they are sinful and weak, unable to exist without one. How caring and compassionate can one be towards others when they must constantly admit that they are miserable, weak wretches? Conversely, if they are able to transcend, somehow, this self-loathing position, then how likely is it that they will view others as miserable wretches? Then, what? At best, this likely leads to dehumanizing pity towards those who "don't know the good news," at worst, self-righteous superiority and condemnation towards those they are told to love as they love themselves.

 

And, this system is set up to convince us we need saving from a fate so awful that we can't even imagine!

 

SeaJay, I'm a new poster here, but I've read many of your posts. I may not know you personally, but I know you well enough from here to know that you don't deserve hell. You are a human being!

 

The thing I have been telling myself lately, is, "I didn't ask for a savior, and I don't deserve hell." And neither do you! 

 

Peace.

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On 1/13/2018 at 7:01 AM, SeaJay said:

Quite a bad day today. Old fears and all that

 

This is why I don't want to believe; why I try to ruin my faith. The anxiety and fear is debilitating 

 

Whenever I think I'm over it all, something sledges me and I'm back to square one

 

 

You'd love to be where I'm at with all of this. I realize that technically I can't claim that there's zero percent chance that the bible god (gods!) exist, but intuitively I'm there. I myself have no question whatsoever in my own mind that it's 100% not literal, not possible, not plausible, and not true at all. No god(s), no heavens, no hell, and more than likely no afterlife that any human made mythology has described in any of the worlds thoughts or texts. 

 

And it's peaceful, dam peaceful to eventually come to a place where I understand and completely accept the above with open arms, no second guessing or hold backs. 

 

There's zero anxiety. 

 

I'm 100% ok with the natural process and cycle of springing into life and experience and then flowing through into death and it's mystery. I don't expect any rewards, punishments, or anything for that matter accept an ending to my egocentric based (looking out from a centralized perspective) experience of human consciousness. Everything's going according to the natural processes and cycles. 

 

How to relate this sort of non-anxiety, lack of religious belief, contentment with the natural order, and one's place within the scheme of nature and the totality of existence, I just don't know. Everyone would have to get there on their own in some way. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. I suppose that enough study, enough engagement with these debates, for a long number of years until it all sinks in well, is the key factor in building up the sort of confidence that I'm talking about. And it's there. This confidence is there for the taking if you choose to be intellectually honest with yourself and follow your better judgement to the bitter end. 

 

Maybe seeing the raw unwavering confidence in others might help you in some way, Sea Jay. I suppose that's what hooks a lot of people with religion. They seem so confident in the existence of the their gods, their concepts of heaven and hell, the bible or some other ancient man made texts as divine, etc. And people lean on, and feed off that confidence. Even fear that confidence, in some cases.

 

But I'm willing to bet that I'm more confident that they're all wrong, than they really are confident in their own minds that they are right. I think they have more doubt about their positions than I have about mine. Again, I know I'm parting with technical philosophical standards by being this confident, but it is what it is. I'm right there at 100%  confidence in my own mind. And I'm willing to bet eternity on it!

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Mornings are the worst. Ugh :(

 

I am convinced that my mental state is what's keeping me from saying "That's it." I have a rational (logical) mind and I have an irrational (mental issues) mind. The irrational mind is controlled in part by o.c.d, part severe anxiety, and part obsessive personality. When I consider that I've also been diagnosed as having a Borderline Personality Disorder and suffering from C PTSD; it starts to make sense that I can't come to a decision.  

 

That said, when I think about all of this, it's really only recently I've seriously started to question my faith by researching non-biblical text. What I mean is, whilst I have had doubts for years, it's only recently I've really started questioning things. 

 

One thing I have no doubt about though, my anxiety is what drives me to ruin my faith. It's terrible at times and the only way I can see out of it all is to stop believing. But choosing not to believe (is that even possible?) or coming to the point where I no longer believe is not as easy as flicking off a switch. 

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It's probably a time thing, then. I wasn't this confident until I had years and years under my belt. There was much more room for doubt, say a decade ago. Although any doubt would have been very minor. 10 years later, it's non-existent. I have just over 20 years from when I stopped believing. Five to ten years into non-belief I took another look at everything. I reread the bible cover to cover. But that only solidified my non-belief even further and added much greater depth to it. That's when I deconstructed christian origins, learned about comparative mythology and religion, minimalist biblical archaeology, and textual criticism. That's why I'm so much more confident now than ever. 

 

So there's a summary of some of the time lines that can be involved in this sort of deconversion process. 

 

PS. After learning of BAA's passing at the end of November, I'll point out that he was exactly like me when it comes to death. He had zero anxiety about it. He was 100% alright with the natural order of things. And he took that attitude to the grave as it turns out. As will I.

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Thanks for posting Josh. 

 

Who is BAA?

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Day 3, and I can't shake this :( This is what's worrying me:

 

Years ago, I and a couple of friends would meet up and discuss things about Christianity. We'd do this regularly and during the discussions, one of the friends would usually say something like “I know this is true because the Holy Spirit has revealed it to me.” I have to say that some of his views were sometimes, strange and I didn't agree with him (don't think my other friend did, either). Anyway, I would say that it’s a “show stopper.” What I meant was, if my friend says the Holy Spirit has revealed the truth of something to him, then that’s it, the discussion is over because you cannot falsify it. 

 

The worrying part is at one time I said to my friend something like “Well the Holy Spirit has told me you are wrong”. I said this even when I knew the Holy Spirit had not revealed anything to me. I am worried because I used the Holy Spirit to deceive. The only thing I have in my defence is that my sole intention was to show my friend, by way of example, how what he says, stops a conversation dead. I never had any intention of using the Holy Spirit to deceive, but I did so inadvertently. 

 

Normally this would pacify me (because I genuinely had no intent to deceive but to show by way of example), but the verse about blasphemy/speaking against the Holy Spirit says there will be no forgiveness, not in this age or the age to come. I'm not sure if this constitutes blasphemy, but I think it does. 

 

Day 3 of this and I'm still feeling bad. I know you are no longer believers, but this is where I come for insight and comfort. I don't really have anyone from a church I can turn to because I've been so long out of any church. 

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1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

The worrying part is at one time I said to my friend something like “Well the Holy Spirit has told me you are wrong”. I said this even when I knew the Holy Spirit had not revealed anything to me. I am worried because I used the Holy Spirit to deceive. The only thing I have in my defence is that my sole intention was to show my friend, by way of example, how what he says, stops a conversation dead. I never had any intention of using the Holy Spirit to deceive, but I did so inadvertently.

 

Don't say, Holy Spirit. 

 

Replace "Holy Spirit" with the word "Boogie Man" and re-evaluate the paragraph. 

 

Because that's the truth of it. What you did was manipulate some one during a game of make believe going between the three of you. And used terminology from a book of fairy tales during this game of make believe. That's as absolute a summary of what really happened as you'll ever get. I'm telling you that there's zero chance that the biblical Holy Spirit is real, absolutely zero. 

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4 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Thanks for posting Josh. 

 

Who is BAA?

 

He's a long-time member whom we all just learned passed away. 

 

If you're still worried about things like the holy spirit, it seems to me you would benefit from reading books on logic and science. From what I've read of your posts, it seems you are trying to convince yourself that you're right by focusing on the bible and reading/listening to those who debunk the bible. The bible is a big book of rabbit holes. It's so easy to keep going down trails and getting yourself lost. If you had a stronger logical foundation and understood observable reality better you'd see that the bible is really a silly little book, no more credible than a children's book that tells the story of Santa, and you'd laugh at yourself for ever taking it seriously. 

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SeaJay, not only did god supposedly give us the holy spirit (which is supposed to lead us and guide us into all truth) but set loose through satan, a million spirits that we would have to be careful of in order to protect the holy spirit??  Thousands of Demons we would have to fight. Every. damn. fucking. day. How were we supposed to remain pure fighting all the 'demon spirits' he allowed Satan to use on us? I would have to say that 99% of christians have blasphemed this holy spirit after fighting all these other demonic spirits, wouldn't you?  Why would a good, kind, loving father to this to us, his children? Is it like he wanted to trick us? Of course most of us blasphemed. Read the list. 

 

 

Demon Groupings  taken from a christian site.

1. Bitterness, resentment, hatred, disillusionment, rabies or violence, mood, anger, vengeance, murder. 
2. Rebellion, self-consolation, stubbornness, disobedience, subjection 
3. Trouble, controversy, scolding, scolding, arguing, quarreling, fighting 
4. Ruling, desire for possession, desire for extravagance, sorcery 
5. Shyness, destruction, malice, malice, hatred , Sadism, Insult, Cruelty 
6. Accusation, Judgment, Critique, Blame, Debugging 
7. Disobedience, Fear of Discard, Self-Discontent 
8. Insecurity, minority, self-pity, loneliness, sinister, shyness, unworthiness, inability. 
9. Irritation, jealousy, suspicion, mistrust, selfish 
10. Retreat, mourning, dreaming, fantasy, defiance, irreverence. 
11. Escape, Indifference, Stoicism, Passivity, Drowsiness, Alcohol, Drugs. 
12. Passivity, fear, indifference, mood, lethargy. 
13. Groups of depression: despair, dysfunction, defeat, depression, hopelessness, suicide, insomnia, illness. 
14. Drowsiness, sobering, burdensome, disgusted, worried, worried, fear, dread, bad anticipation. 
15. Nervousness, tension, headache, nervous habits, restlessness, agitation, insomnia, vagaries. 
16. Sensitivity, self-consciousness, fear of man, fear of rejection. 
17. Persecution, injustice, fear of judgment, fear of condemnation, fear of accusation, fear of reproach, sensitivity. 
18. Illness, insanity, rampage, mania, delay, delay, senility, hallucinations, hysteria 
19. Schizophrenia
20. Paranoia, envy, jealousy, suspicion, mistrust, persecution, fears, confrontation 
21. Confusion, distress, defiance, controversy, forgetfulness. 
22. Doubt, disbelief, skepticism 
23. Impartiality, delay, embarrassment, confusion, forgetfulness, indifference 24. Self-deception, self-deception, pride 
25. There was confusion, confusion, fear of man, fear of failure, occult and spiritistic spirits. 
26. Emotional idolatry, intellectualism, rationalism, pride, ego 
27. Fears, all kinds of phobias, hysteria. 
28. Fear of Being, Lying, Fraud , Pride, ego, egoism, self-righteousness, dullness, importance, affection, arrogance. 
30. Coloring, acting, craftiness, guess 
31. Greed, theft, kleptomania, material desire, greed, impotence. 
32. Perfection, pride, vanity, ego, egoism, corruption, critique, irritability, ineligibility, anger. 
33. Verse, Graduation, Argument, Pride, ego, egoism 
34. Impatience, restlessness, distress, insolence, resentment, criticism. 
35. False burden, false responsibility, false compassion 
36. Sadness, sorrow, heart disease, heart beat, crying, lethargy, bitterness, cruelty 
37. Tiredness, exhaustion, 
dementia , laziness 38. Insufficiency (here any disease may be) 
39. Death 
40. Intrinsic physical, emotional, intellectual; material curses. 
41. Overdrive (Hypersensitivity), Unrest, 
Depression 42. Curse, Swearing, Harassment, Rumor, Critique, Slander, Mockery, Scolding, Denial. 
43. Passions or compelling demons: nicotine, alcohol, drugs, medicines, caffeine, bruising 
44. Praise, nervousness, compulsive eating, resentment, disillusion, inaction, self-pity, self-revelation. 
45. Self-condemnation, self-hatred, self-condemnation 
46. Guilt, condemnation, shame, unhappiness , confusion. 
47. Sexual impurity: fornication, imaginary fornication, self-denial, homosexuality, lesbianism (female homosexuality), adultery, anger, incest, prostitution, rape, mutilation, frigidity, nudism. 
48. False Religions: Jehovah's Witnesses, "Christian Science," Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Unitarianism, Mormonism, in addition to the lodges (Freemasonry), and all societies and movements that use the Bible or the name of God but which exclude Jesus Christ blood donation - eg. New Age, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Islam, Sinti, Confucianism, etc. 
49. Occultism: Astrology, Penetration, Graphology, Media Writing, Express-Sensuality (ISP), Hypnosis, Astrology, Horoscope, Levitation, Fortune-telling, Water Wizard, Tarokk Card, Commuting, Black Magic, White Magic, fetishism, visibility, superstition, mortality, familial spirits, biorhythm. 
50. Religious Demons: Ritualism, Formalism, Legislation, Teaching Obsessions, Fraud, False Teaching, Fear of God, Fear of Hell, Fear of Loss of Salvation, etc. 
51. Spiritism: séance, ghosting 
52. Democratic denominations: Catholicism: Mass, weddings, altars, sculptures, images, crucifixes, objects, false teachings, cleansing fire, denial of Israel's restoration, denying rapture, denying the thousand-year-old kingdom, Maria-cult, mother-teaching, eternal virginity and immaculate conception, the ascension of Mary, the death of the cult, the death, the drawing, the cult of the dead saints, and worship. 
Protestantism: The denial of the Holy Spirit and its gifts, denial of faith, denial of demonization, praise and glorification, János Kálvin, Márton Luther's spirit. 

1, The spiritual forces behind the Christian faiths 
- clergy, priests, priests, - parties, local governments, social organizations (organized on religious grounds), their leaders 
- bigoted parents, relatives, neighbors 
Their activities are: - condemnation, accusation, false guilty, fear and threatening 
sensations - torment, torture, fatigue, neurological problems 
- spiritual / demonic prayers, spells, spells (bigoted members and defenders) 
- invasion, fever; Creation of mistrust, division, disagreement 
- Reporting, punishment, blame for tragic people - Hindrance, 
administrative means (lease, termination of contracts, prevention of the 
creation, flattery , communist, socialist and liberal forces 
- journalists, writers, reporters, artists , politicians, organizations 
Activities: - Creating langyeness, practical materialism, enlightenment - Stressing, 
indifference, passivity to the people of God, undermining of moral values, false tolerance 

3, Occult, False Cultures 
- Jevreists, Buddhists, Christians, Mormons, New Age, Witches, etc. 

4, Poverty 
- individuals, families, societies, organizations, the state 
Action: 
- laziness, unemployment, interference with other things, homelessness 

5, Sexual immorality 
- bars, sex shops, brothels, mafia, puppy clubs 
- moral, keep people 
- tv, cinema, theater, bars, shops, educational institutions, jobs 
6, Diseases 
- early death, cancer, mental and nerve diseases, suicide 

7, Lawsuits 
- crime, mafia, theft, robbery, 

 

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There's a load of them! I had no idea there were so many 

 

I think I'm going to start reading some Ehrman tonight, Hitchens, Dawkins et al. I have to. I can't keep falling into black holes like this all the time. I told myself I never want to feel like this again, but I have. 

 

Thank you all very much for the advice. 

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Do the initials BAA stand for anything or was that the username? It feels familiar 

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