Opinions on transgender

[Wertbag]

There has been a lot of talk about transgender issues, from the various bathroom bills, to Trump's ban on transgenders in the military, to Catlyn Jenner receiving an award for bravery.

I'm interested in hearing what everyone's thoughts are on this hotly debated issue.  Should transgender people be given special rights and special protection under law?

 

From what I can see it does appear to be a mental illness.  Body dismorphia can appear in several forms, from anorexia to self harm, but while the other cases are categorised as a mental illness, transgender seems to be held in a special category.  Voicing an opinion will often get the speaker yelled at for being a bigot, so often intelligent discussion and free speech is crushed in favour of protecting feelings. 

I have sympathy for anyone suffering mental illness and believe they should get help with professionals to overcome their problems and live a happy life.  Sex change surgery doesn't achieve this.  You are making some cosmetic changes but you can't change someone's sex.  From reports I've read it appears suicide rates are very high but pre and post op the rates remain unchanged, which shows this is not a working solution.  One report said that 80% of teenagers who believe they have body dismorphia, turn out to be confused by life, hormones, puberty and the information coming at them from every angle, and they will drop the idea as they get older.  I would hate for kids to get surgery to later regret it.

 

One other concerning trend are sporting associations allowing transgender people to compete with the sex they feel like and not what they are.  This has lead to men competing in women's events, which is not an even playing field.  But it gets worse, in that one man competed in women's MMA, beating 3 woman fighters before it was revealed he was a man, post-op.  What you feel doesn't change the fact of what you physically are, and as every Olympic record shows men are the physically the stronger of the sexes.

 

I think the big thing that I can't understand is someone saying "I feel like a woman".  What does a woman feel like?  I'm a man, but if someone asked "what does being a man feel like?" I couldn't answer.  I only have my personal experience, so I can say I feel like me, but whether what I feel is somehow enough manly quota to be considered the same as other men...  You see some of the teenage transgenders (especially the "gender fluid" or "non-binary" types) saying "I like short hair, wearing jeans, watching sports and tinkering with engines, so I'm a man" but are clothing choices, hair cut and hobbies really what defines a gender? 

 

So far my views seem to lean to the conservative idea of biology matters above all else.  Where do you stand on these issues?

 

[Thurisaz]

I'm not sure we can say that transgenders have "special" rights medically. In other ways maybe but not necessarily in the medical field.

 

People suffering from an illness, whether mental or physical, have a right to treatment. In the case of body dysmorphia that treatment happens to be the surgery.

 

I do agree though that the entire topic is treated quite irrationally on all sides. Let alone that, sadly, I guess there indeed are people who are basically "talked into thinking they're trans" by parts/groups of our societies. Which is especially devastating if these people should still be kids.

 

It's not a topic that can be dealt with easily. Whoever claims to have an easy solution for it is a liar, if you ask me.

 

As for suicide rates, I think what you posted up there isn't sufficiently rich in detail. Assuming that the study itself is legitimate (not all studies are...), is that high rate due to massive discrimination against post-op transgenders? Is it because, if the surgery took place post-puberty, there's only so much it can change, thus the bodies easily betraying their "origin" by, for example, still-broad shoulders and such for post-op trans women? Methinks there's many questions around that topic that need to be dealt with.

[Wertbag]

Finding the details on transgender suicide is challenging, as once a person has died there is no physical way to know their sexual orientation.  The studies seem to focus on pre and post op people, as they are the easiest group to confirm.

The study I found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662085/ is very heavy in its links to many other studies, so to digest all of this data would be quite a task.

I saw these notes:

"Another international review of studies that followed over 2,000 persons in 13 countries who had undergone gender reassignment surgery identified 16 possible suicide deaths (Pfäfflin & Junge, 1998). If confirmed as actual suicides, these figures would translate to an alarmingly high rate of 800 suicides for every 100,000 post-surgery transsexuals. By contrast, the current suicide rate for the overall U.S. population is 11.5 suicides per 100,000 people"

While anywhere up to 30% had claimed to have attempted suicide.

 

[ToHellWithMe]

12 hours ago, Wertbag said:

From reports I've read it appears suicide rates are very high but pre and post op the rates remain unchanged, which shows this is not a working solution.

This sounds dubious to me. I checked that " Suicide and Suicide Risk in Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Populations: Review and Recommendations" one but it didn't seem to support that claim.

 

it did say the following:

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Generalizable information is lacking about suicidal behavior and suicide risk among transgender populations, and thus there is currently little empirical basis for specific recommendations for practices involving transgender individuals.

 

Later the article recommends the following:

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Revise DSM-V diagnoses related to transgender people to ... establish the medical necessity of transition treatments for those who perceive biological characteristics to be incongruent with their gender identity.

which wouldn't make sense if they had in any way determined that transition treatments aren't helpful.

[midniterider]

I'd say there is a wide world of human activity for which transgender people can enjoy life. While, like other sub groups of humanity, there probably are areas of life where transgenders may cause issues and those issues will have to be ironed out.

 

I don't think it's a mental illness, but if it is then discrimination against transgenders is also a mental illness. Speaking of mental illness, I often wonder why wanting to beat the shit out of someone in any of our wonderful violent sports is NOT classified as a mental illness. Sports certainly seem more destructive to humanity than being transgender. But I guess that's another thread.

 

But, for normal everyday life, transgenders only need special laws and protections if people treat them like crap, discrimination, etc. Just add transgender to the civil rights list that includes non-discrimination on the basis of race, religion, ethnic background, sexual orientation, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lydie]

If you understand that XX chromosome people are female, and XY chromosome are male, when the fact is presented that there are some other presentations/mutations e.g. XXY you will see it less as a moral or mental health issue and recognise the biological issues.

 

There is a place in Costa Rica (I think) where some children are thought to be girls at birth but then apparently 'change gender' at puberty. This is quite a dramatic illustration so why not more subtle manifestations of this?

[Wertbag]

7 hours ago, Lydie said:

If you understand that XX chromosome people are female, and XY chromosome are male, when the fact is presented that there are some other presentations/mutations e.g. XXY you will see it less as a moral or mental health issue and recognise the biological issues.

 

There is a place in Costa Rica (I think) where some children are thought to be girls at birth but then apparently 'change gender' at puberty. This is quite a dramatic illustration so why not more subtle manifestations of this?

 

I didn't think it was possible to get three chromosomes?  Certainly with transgender people they (at least the majority) have the correct XX or XY of the sex of their birth.  Mutations could have an effect but that would be the exception not the norm.

 

I don't understand how Costa Rica can have that confusion?  Surely the child's genitals make it perfectly clear at birth as to what they are?  At puberty there is no change to their sex, so I'm not sure what is going on there?  Perhaps it is something cultural? 

[Thurisaz]

There are also people who have the chromosome set of one gender but the body of another. I can't tell how many of them are turning out to be transgender, but I suppose at least some will. Things won't be as clear in these cases will they?

Also, there are people who get born with... ambiguous genitals. It's not always a clear thing.

 

Damn this real world with its complexity

 

[ConsiderTheSource]

Wertbag and others, I spent months counseling, encouraging, seeking out resourses for Chloe, transgendering from male to female, desperately trying to keep her from killing herself.  

 

My recommendation, my insistance, for all if you is to actually got out and talk with actual Transgender citizens and listen to them. They understand themselves better than you or any study.   But, if you insist on not making this basic effort I can tell you that for Chloe the mental angish and stress came directly from others, society, and most of all the church making it darn well clear how disgusting and awful she was simply for existing and living her life as she saw fit.  And, you know, despite my efforts to redirect her cognitive processes elsewhere, she was right. She, and 99% of the transgender population are gentle people are/were gentle people who darn well know they are different.  There biggest wish, the one thing that would greatly reduce the suicide rate, is to be simply left alone, unfettered, and not bashed or labeled for simply being themselves.  They do not harm you or negatively impact you or anyone else in any way.  So, please just stay out of their lives.

 

In the end it was all too much for her.  She began demanding all of her friends denounce their church relationshipa if they were true friends.  She cut off communication from me when I tried to help her understand that this demand was not very practical given the religious nature of our society.  Three week later, she was dead of a self inflicted gunshot to her head.  She had a good job and a good future ahead of her.  It is sad, and make me questioned if there was more I could of done for her personality.

Please folks, quit trying to segregate anyone, of any group, that does nothing to harm you or negatively impact.  Just leave them be.

[Wertbag]

8 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

Wertbag and others, I spent months counseling, encouraging, seeking out resourses for Chloe, transgendering from male to female, desperately trying to keep her from killing herself.  

 

That's terrible, and the studies agree that the suicide rate is far too high.  I think we all want to help and to make sure they get all the support they can, I guess the question is how best to do that?  Personally I've asked these questions out of a lack of understanding of the issues and a hope that these discussions will help shed some light on these complex issues.

Especially in cases of bullying and abuse like you describe, we need people to be a lot more understanding.  It doesn't matter if it is a mental illness or a physical issue, we still need to offer support and care in the same amounts.

Not sure I agree with the idea of "just leave them alone", as surely they are feeling a lack of friendship and a lack of support?  To leave them alone would mean you aren't showing care and offering to help.  When I was suffering with depression I would have much rather had friends than space, but perhaps that is an individual choice?  My depression was not due to bullying, so maybe there is a difference there?

 

[Lydie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

 

Sorry, it's Dominican Republic and they are called guevadoces.

 

My simplified understanding is that biologically, in a physical sense, all foetuses begin as female in structure for a few weeks, then testosterone acts to develop the male elements. As with any process this can and does not alway happen in the usual way.

[Wertbag]

6 hours ago, Lydie said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

 

Sorry, it's Dominican Republic and they are called guevadoces.

 

My simplified understanding is that biologically, in a physical sense, all foetuses begin as female in structure for a few weeks, then testosterone acts to develop the male elements. As with any process this can and does not alway happen in the usual way.

 

That's really interesting, a local mutation that slows the development till puberty.  Amazing.  One of those awkward situations where you want to see photos of their genitals to understand what they are talking about but realise that asking for it is wanting photos of children...  "but officer it was for research!"

[Blamtasticful]

It all comes down to what portion of stereotypical masculine and feminine traits in men and women are directly linked to biology (sex) and what portion are due to socialization to societal norms (gender.) Definitions really matter in this discussion for any meaningful progress. What complicates this more is that these are generalities and there are plenty of exceptions to the rule and a good society allows freedom for the sexes to choose whatever line of work fits individual skills even if the job doesn't conform to average or standard job placement for that sex. People should also have some freedom to express themselves as they wish. I think Eddie Izzard is a good example of this.

 

The problem Is that there isn't consensus on these issues including some identity expressions that could be self-harming. As it comes to legislation I am a strong free speech advocate so if legislation could cause legal penalties for not using an individuals invented pronoun I will denounce it for what it is a blasphemy law. Marriage can be same or opposite sex so that shouldn't be an issue. As long as discrimination doesn't take place in the marketplace and workforce toward capable and skilled transgender workers I don't see what other laws one might need. I honestly think bathroom and locker room issues have to do with leftover remnants of religious shame towards sexual organs. Just have qualified adult oversight for locker rooms and I don't see any other problems from multi-sex facilities. 

[ConsiderTheSource]

14 hours ago, Wertbag said:

 

Not sure I agree with the idea of "just leave them alone", as surely they are feeling a lack of friendship and a lack of support? 

 

Once again, I will strongly plead to go talk with these folks.  They know themselves best.  It is really quite silly and disingenuous to want to help a broad group of people by throwing out what ifs, suggestions without even know even one person of the group.

 

She wanted to be left alone.  Others I have spoken with say the same thing. The folks I have spoken with are done with being analyzed, gossiped about, intimidated, being considered "less than" by both well meaning folks, and those who unrationally hate them.  They are being smothered by people/society who are much more interested in either dehumanizing them or disecting them as opposed to treating them like, you know, people.  They live this everyday.  The folks I got to know would be very very happy if they were just left alone and allowed to live unfettered lives where they can have the space to process their lives on their own.

[Rounin]

With regards to men "feeling like a woman" and vice versa, it's important to remember that people have a mental map of what they look like and how their body is connected, and that this map can be so specific that people can feel they still have limbs they've actually lost ("phantom limbs"), that limbs they do have don't belong to them, that their body is actually dead, and a variety of other things. The neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran has written about such illusions at great length.

 

It doesn't require much imagination to see that similar processes can affect one's perception of one's own gender. After all, the vast majority of people in every society I can think of grow up to be heterosexual, and to some extent they also seem to conform to predefined gender roles. This isn't because they all vote Republican, but because human nature drives a lot of us to behave that way.

 

Anyone marvelling at transsexuality, homosexuality and related phenomena, thinking it's all terribly complicated, need only look at cis-gendered heterosexuals to see the mechanisms at work. Sometimes a mechanism that drives most people in one direction gets reversed, and drives a person in the other direction. In some ways, a reversal is a very small change, and it's something we should expect from time to time.

[knightcore]

Hey guys, back from my hiatus and I happened to see this thread. I've tackled this topic in multiple other discussions on the forum, but I will say things again because I do think education is important and a lot of you guys are just trying to understand.

 

Quote

Personally I view my journey through gender as chapters. I didn't always know I was a boy, I didn't have the knowledge or capacity to understand that as a kid. Did I have conflicting feelings though? Of course, I wouldn't have started questioning otherwise. I really don't like comparing religion and being trans but honestly it's a good analogy. A lot of you all talk about the long path it took you to fully understand your disbelief, how sometimes you backslid into what you were brought up with, how sometimes emotion overrides reason and what you know to be true about yourself. It's not really that different. It's all a matter of identity. It's painful when people try to push Christianity on you, it's painful when people try to push my birth gender on me. It's hard for you to come out, it's hard for me to come out. 

 

I posted this a few months ago in another discussion about being trans and am going to repost for brevity. I think the easiest way to explain how I "feel" that I am a man, is to go back to something you said Wert.

 

On 8/13/2017 at 11:54 PM, Wertbag said:

I think the big thing that I can't understand is someone saying "I feel like a woman".  What does a woman feel like?  I'm a man, but if someone asked "what does being a man feel like?" I couldn't answer.  I only have my personal experience, so I can say I feel like me, but whether what I feel is somehow enough manly quota to be considered the same as other men...

 

You know you're a man right? You don't have the full vocabulary or understanding, but you know that's what you are? It's the same for me. I feel like me and I know that I am a man. It all really does boil down to personal experience, you are not going to experience manhood the same as every other man on the planet. Neither am I.

 

I don't really have any stats right now, just personal experiences. Many of my friends are transgender, or nonconforming. I see their struggle and I see things like hormone therapy help them feel more at ease with themselves, much in the same way a lot of people take prescription drugs or work out to feel ease with themselves. There is always going to be societal pressure for you to be a certain way, it's much the same for us when we start our transition and want to pass.

 

In terms of wanting to be left alone, that doesn't necessarily always mean by peers and it doesn't mean you don't want support. It means that you want people to stop othering you so much. Every time someone at work says "That can't be your real name. What name did your parents give you?" or "Well that's a strange name for a girl." I want them to leave me alone. When my friend who just tries to use the bathroom is followed around target and stalked and called a tranny and fag, he wants to be left alone. Every time we go out and are squinted at, pointed at or laughed at, we just want to be left alone. We want people with harmful intentions to leave us alone and sometimes we can't tell who is going to hurt us, so we isolate.

 

Suicide is so common, even after transitioning, because we feel like despite all that we have done we will never be accepted. It's not that it doesn't make us feel better about ourselves. I do agree that it's very hard when it comes to kids. You want to affirm them but at the same time they're figuring themselves out still a lot of the time. Sometimes they know, but sometimes their mind changes. All I can say about that is you can do your best to help the child feel safe enough to fully explore. I didn't have that luxury and I've been catching up. It's taken me around ten years to accept myself and I've gone through a few identities trying to land on what I knew but didn't want to admit because of internalized shit.

 

Sorry that this is long, sorry that it's mostly emotional, sorry that I don't have stats. But when you only look at stats and not people's stories it's very easy to brush them off and view it solely as data when this is a real thing that affects real humans.

 

I am also sorry for reviving a week old thread but here we are.

[mwc]

     We had someone who transitioned on this site many years ago.  I don't recall much about it except it went poorly and they left.

 

     From that point on I can't say I understand anything about it to this day.  I think it's best that I sort of live and let live.  I can't say I'm comfortable with the whole idea.  I'd be lying if I said it didn't creep me out a little.  I don't personally know anyone like this.  I'd probably have to ease into the whole friendship thing since life isn't like television or movies where you meet up and after a rough go you're best buddies and all that shit.   I figure just letting folks have a wide berth with their lives is about the best I can do at this point in my life.  Doesn't mean I might not have something to say about it now and again but no one's off-limits in a society not even the so-called "normal" folks.

 

          mwc

 

[knightcore]

19 hours ago, mwc said:

     We had someone who transitioned on this site many years ago.  I don't recall much about it except it went poorly and they left.

 

     From that point on I can't say I understand anything about it to this day.  I think it's best that I sort of live and let live.  I can't say I'm comfortable with the whole idea.  I'd be lying if I said it didn't creep me out a little.  I don't personally know anyone like this.  I'd probably have to ease into the whole friendship thing since life isn't like television or movies where you meet up and after a rough go you're best buddies and all that shit.   I figure just letting folks have a wide berth with their lives is about the best I can do at this point in my life.  Doesn't mean I might not have something to say about it now and again but no one's off-limits in a society not even the so-called "normal" folks.

 

          mwc

 

 

I really mean this in the least confrontational way possible, but what creeps you out about it?

[Thurisaz]

I wouldn't say it creeps me out but it can surely make me feel weird to be around a trans person. Brain says there's no reason for it but gut feeling can't really help it. I suppose it's about us all instinctively considering gender to be one of the foundational either-or facts about people that you can discern at one glance (well usually), but trans people crash and burn this "foundational certainty" by their existence. Whether or not you find them attractive, they find you attractive, or whatever.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

[knightcore]

13 minutes ago, Thurisaz said:

I wouldn't say it creeps me out but it can surely make me feel weird to be around a trans person. Brain says there's no reason for it but gut feeling can't really help it. I suppose it's about us all instinctively considering gender to be one of the foundational either-or facts about people that you can discern at one glance (well usually), but trans people crash and burn this "foundational certainty" by their existence. Whether or not you find them attractive, they find you attractive, or whatever.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

I think you're kinda on the right path with this line of thinking in a way? It IS hard to get over the conditioning of society. Also I think something worth noting is that trans people don't look at people and immediately gauge how fuckable they are most of the time. I'm assuming you don't go about your whole day being attracted to everyone though, which may be a false assumption  

[mwc]

1 hour ago, knightcore said:

 

I really mean this in the least confrontational way possible, but what creeps you out about it?

     I think Thurisaz gets it pretty close.  I don't really know a good way to put it into words.  Sort of that uncanny valley feeling maybe?  I'm sure it's lack of exposure like most things.  Maybe I'd get used to it and maybe not.  I don't know.  I just know it's there and I can't put my finger on it.

 

          mwc

 

[Vigile]

I understand the "creep out" feeling. I used to have it myself. I can't speak for others, but in my own experience, this went away quickly as I got to know people. I grew up in a conservative western town and gay people seemed like aliens when I was a kid. In my early 20s, I met a friend of a friend who was gay, ended up going to a gay club (which I was surprised even existed in my town) and found them all to be great. Most importantly, I didn't feel any sense that they would hit on me (which I think is probably one of the main factors that creeps out a straight white male who grew up in a conservative town like me). 

Likewise, a few years ago, I spent 6 months in Thailand and got to know a few of the kathoeys (ladyboys) there. One in particular told me her life story. She said she knew from the age 5 or 6 and that her father tried to beat it out of her until she ran away from home at around 12-13. It was a heartbreaking story, but she was positive and seemed quite well adjusted. I can hang with her and those like her now and not feel any of my former sense of being creeped out by it. They are just people and I feel that on a visceral level now. 

Again, for me, it just took exposure and not really all that much of that to get over it. 

[Margee]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:37 AM, mwc said:

   Doesn't mean I might not have something to say about it now and again but no one's off-limits in a society not even the so-called "normal" folks.

 

          mwc

 

2

2

This is a good, honest statement mwc. 

 

When humans are released from the belief systems that they grew up in or got involved with (like I did at 20 years old) one would be free to form his or her own opinion of what is 'normal' for them.  For instance, we are taught that depression is not normal. Well, from my experience, yes it is....even in the church. Depression has to do with the struggle and survival of our species.  Most of the people that I have known over many years suffer from depression because of the struggle in life. I would say now at this age (my own opinion of course) that depression is a 'normal' part of life. Many wouldn't agree with me and that's OK.

 

I would also say that there are a lot more 'gay' and transgender people in the world that cannot come out of the closet because they would be shunned by friends or family and religious groups. There are a million different species in the animal kingdom and we humans are part of that.  Amongst the humans are also many different species as in gay, transgender and a wide range of behaviors. (some of them not good like greed, wanting power, etc..) But we have been taught and brainwashed that there are only two 'normals'. Man. Woman. And they are supposed to go together for procreation. (which is true of course or we wouldn't have more humans) But there are also groups within the human species that do not ever require to have sex, for example. They are very happy to never have sex and to some of them, it is repulsive. And many of these people have had what we would consider a 'normal' upbringing. And they are nice people. But doctors would probably label them with some mental disorder. Everything seems to be labeled as a mental disorder and it drives me crazy.

 

It seems as if you are one bit 'different' than the so called 'normal' woman or man...you are cast out and considered to have mental problems when the mental problems themselves probably come from not being accepted. It's a terrible thing to not be accepted. I know that now as a non-believer in god. Any of my religious friends who know that I don't believe do consider me to be different and it's not a good feeling although I could give a shit at this older age. But this would have bothered me 100% when I was younger because I needed the approval of people.

 

Many 'different' people stay in the closet because of rejection. As I said, we were taught what 'normal' was supposed to be and most people, even today try to live up to that and lead miserable lives. I only wish I knew when I was much younger....what I know now. My heart goes out to all the 'different' people in this world.

[knightcore]

8 hours ago, mwc said:

     I think Thurisaz gets it pretty close.  I don't really know a good way to put it into words.  Sort of that uncanny valley feeling maybe?  I'm sure it's lack of exposure like most things.  Maybe I'd get used to it and maybe not.  I don't know.  I just know it's there and I can't put my finger on it.

 

          mwc

 

 

A lot of people have said lack of exposure is probably it and I would agree. I don't really understand the sentiment myself because when I found out gay and trans people existed all I felt was intense relief but did not know why. But I do think it's important, along with anything that's uncomfortable, to try and put your finger on it and figure out why. A lot of the time our prejudices and misgivings are still leftover from Christian upbringing and indoctrination.

I'm not gonna force you too of course, just think it's important to think as critically of yourself as it is for you to be critical of other people. Either way, since you live and let live I hope we can still get along! 

[Tsathoggua9]

On 8/15/2017 at 5:55 PM, Lydie said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/12/the-astonishing-village-where-little-girls-turn-into-boys-aged-1/

 

Sorry, it's Dominican Republic and they are called guevadoces.

 

My simplified understanding is that biologically, in a physical sense, all foetuses begin as female in structure for a few weeks, then testosterone acts to develop the male elements. As with any process this can and does not alway happen in the usual way.

 

Wow! Fascinating!