Opinions on transgender

[mwc]

1 hour ago, knightcore said:

 

A lot of people have said lack of exposure is probably it and I would agree. I don't really understand the sentiment myself because when I found out gay and trans people existed all I felt was intense relief but did not know why. But I do think it's important, along with anything that's uncomfortable, to try and put your finger on it and figure out why. A lot of the time our prejudices and misgivings are still leftover from Christian upbringing and indoctrination.

I'm not gonna force you too of course, just think it's important to think as critically of yourself as it is for you to be critical of other people. Either way, since you live and let live I hope we can still get along! 

     I see no reason why we can't get along.

 

     Seems you think I have something against you.

 

          mwc

 

[midniterider]

Girls in their 20s seem creeped out when I leer at them. I wish they'd get over it and just accept the fact that I'm a horny old fart lusting after their nubile body.

 

Yes, I said 'nubile' !

 

My point? I guess the point is that people get creeped out for different reasons and its ok. Lots of people , even trans people probably will get creeped out over someone picking his nose. Then 30 years from now, after being sufficiently programmed to be anti-nose picking, there will be a nose picking civil rights movement and non-nose pickers will need to force themselves to accept it...or put on a show of acceptance, at least.

 

I'm certainly not equating trans people to disgusting nose pickers because , of course nose picking is unacceptable...for the moment. haha. But you just wait!

 

MidniteRider signing off.

[knightcore]

5 hours ago, mwc said:

     I see no reason why we can't get along.

 

     Seems you think I have something against you.

 

          mwc

 

 

Oh no not at all? I just know for some people once they realize I'm trans they act different? That's all I was referring to. Text is hard to get points across with!

[mwc]

10 hours ago, knightcore said:

 

Oh no not at all? I just know for some people once they realize I'm trans they act different? That's all I was referring to. Text is hard to get points across with!

     Fair enough.  I can't say that I wouldn't act different though.  I don't really know how I'd do.  It's not like I'd cross the street or leave a restaurant though.  All sorts of people here in SoCal.  I've probably encountered a little of everyone.  I don't really think about it.  It's more on the order of thinking about your parents having sex.  It's that sort of creepy.

 

          mwc

 

[MikeT]

 

I grew up not far from a family whose teenage daughter wanted to be a boy. She was the nicest kid, but the area was kind of deprived and it seemed obvious that part of the reason for her turning out that way was that her mother had taken hard drugs over the years and was a bad role model. I never seen her dad as her parents were not together. It was her mother who told me that she was now a "he" and that the condition was gender dysmorphia. She told me the girl was going to get hormone treatment at that time. To my memory she was about 12 or 13.

 

Instinctively I am weary of terms like "mental illness" as they can equally apply to issues of sexual shame, which many of us brought up in religious backgrounds will be familiar with. Is it not possible that there are a multitude of issues behind someone wanting to be a different gender and that in some cases bad parenting and negative beliefs the child has picked up from interacting with their parents will be the cause of that person wanting to change sex as they get older?

 

I suppose there may be mental health issues, and the worst thing is that some people can grow up in a dysfunctional family but not fully realise what effect that has had on them until they are in their twenties. I don't think transgender campaigning should write off mental health issues as a possible cause. It would seem to be irresponsible to campaign in that way if they are doing so.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

23 hours ago, Margee said:

I would also say that there are a lot more 'gay' and transgender people in the world that cannot come out of the closet because they would be shunned by friends or family and religious groups.

 

I know a LOT of gay, lesbian, queer, and trans people, and it seems to me that the only reason any of us fret over the differences are societal conditioning. I didn't realize how much conditioning I had until I started looking back at my younger years where I wouldn't even listen to music if it came from a gay man (Neil Sedaka, Elton John), and would remind my cousins "You know he's gay, right?" though I might have used the term fag at the time. It was like I could catch being gay from listening to the music. I was very impressionable by my brother's attitudes and he is far more black and white than I am, so I copied his behaviors until I learned firsthand that I really had nothing to fear from these people and that there are tons of variations in humankind (as there are in the other animals). One trans friend is part of a Native American group, and he says that they are far more welcoming as a group because they historically have always recognized an "other" gender rather than shunned it. It is the societal shaming based on a sense of "normal" that causes all of the negative reactions we have. And when that "normal" is backed by a god who created everything perfectly, there is no wiggle room for being different and being okay.

 

Growing up, I was very quiet and shy. That was like painting a big red target symbol on me as far as jocks were concerned. Every damn day I was treated like shit for not being a loud crude sports fan. They mocked my clothes, my quiet, my non-sports persona, my acne, jumped on me, and more all because I was different than them. I've seen ducks attack other ducks that were odd-looking to them (one duck was a variety from China and looked odd compared to our ducks). And once there was a bit of blood showing from the pecking, BOOM the others joined in and started pecking the same spot. I had to chase off the "normal" ducks to protect the Chinese one. It seems that this behavior is ingrained as a group survival sort of thing, at least to some degree.

 

The nuances of this issue are many. Humans abstract things better than other creatures, so we should be able to see past the differences more easily. I think once we take the time to know those who are different, we lose the conditioning that paints different=bad. Not all differences are good or healthful, but this is dealing more with the subject at hand.

 

[Lilith666]

People have begun to think entirely too much about gender, and I don't want to join them. So I take a "meh" attitude for the most part.

 

I feel uncomfortable with people being trans, as I find it (particularly hormone treatment and surgery) creepy. But it's not my body, so not my business.

 

Probably we should all be using the same bathrooms and locker rooms. No one is going to die of changing in the same room with someone of the opposite gender, and no woman is going to suffer sexual assault just because a man is in the next stall. I think the bigger deal we make out of gender, the bigger of a deal it becomes. We can acknowledge there are biological differences between men and women without hysterically painting men as predators and women as prey. I think that in cultures where a wedge is driven between men and women by putting so much emphasis on gender, there is a tendency of femaleness and maleness to be mystified and "otherized" from each other, so that members of each see members of the other as a gender more than as individuals, and there is thus a greater risk of sexual assault.

 

Why should trans people be barred from serving in the military? If we are going to be truly united as a nation, then identity is less important than national security. I've heard the argument that trans people will take a toll on expenses by demanding hormones and surgery, but some defer physical changes or forego them altogether. We could be losing otherwise able serving members by indiscriminately barring an entire group.

 

I'm not a sports fan, so I have no solution to the sports issue.

[JadedAtheist]

For me I think it's a pretty shitty situation to be in. There's currently not a way (that I am aware of) that'll help them be comfortable with their bodies (as in, removing their dysphoria) nor are the surgeries or hormone treatments used by them make them indistinguishable from "real" men/women (yes, some of them can "pass" but this isn't the norm) which causes them much grief as well. I feel bad for them and the situation they're in.

 

I don't have much of an opinion when it comes to bathroom use. I don't think there's necessarily a need for gender based bathrooms anyway. When it comes to sports, MTF based athletes are shown to have an advantage. If they're allowed to compete as women, all top positions will no doubt be dominated by transgendered people. Whether this is really a problem, that's up to people who care more about sports than I do. With regards to military service, whoever meets all the criteria the military requires should be able to join so I don't see the need for discrimination there.

 

Lastly, the issue of dating comes up. While I consider myself fairly liberal, I would not date some who is transgendered.

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 8/14/2017 at 0:54 AM, Wertbag said:

From what I can see it does appear to be a mental illness.

 

As the father of a transgender child, I strongly disagree. My transgender son is not bonkers by any stretch of the imagination. He's a normal guy with better-than-average reasoning abilities. He simply doesn't have any female thoughts or feelings, just like me and possibly you. Most of us are born with physical anatomy that matches our gender identity, but he simply wasn't as fortunate. That's all there is to it. You and I could just as easily have been born with female parts and have society telling us that we need to look, act, and talk like women and be attracted to men. I don't know about you, but my mind couldn't do that. That's not a mental illness; it's simply reality. Having a gender identity that doesn't match one's physical anatomy is not an illness; it's being trapped in the wrong body.

 

On 8/30/2017 at 0:19 AM, Thurisaz said:

I wouldn't say it creeps me out but it can surely make me feel weird to be around a trans person.

 

Most of us have probably been around transgender people at times without even realizing it.

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 8/15/2017 at 9:37 AM, ConsiderTheSource said:

Wertbag and others, I spent months counseling, encouraging, seeking out resourses for Chloe, transgendering from male to female, desperately trying to keep her from killing herself.  

 

My recommendation, my insistance, for all if you is to actually got out and talk with actual Transgender citizens and listen to them. They understand themselves better than you or any study.   But, if you insist on not making this basic effort I can tell you that for Chloe the mental angish and stress came directly from others, society, and most of all the church making it darn well clear how disgusting and awful she was simply for existing and living her life as she saw fit.  And, you know, despite my efforts to redirect her cognitive processes elsewhere, she was right. She, and 99% of the transgender population are gentle people are/were gentle people who darn well know they are different.  There biggest wish, the one thing that would greatly reduce the suicide rate, is to be simply left alone, unfettered, and not bashed or labeled for simply being themselves.  They do not harm you or negatively impact you or anyone else in any way.  So, please just stay out of their lives.

 

In the end it was all too much for her.  She began demanding all of her friends denounce their church relationshipa if they were true friends.  She cut off communication from me when I tried to help her understand that this demand was not very practical given the religious nature of our society.  Three week later, she was dead of a self inflicted gunshot to her head.  She had a good job and a good future ahead of her.  It is sad, and make me questioned if there was more I could of done for her personality.

Please folks, quit trying to segregate anyone, of any group, that does nothing to harm you or negatively impact.  Just leave them be.

 

On 8/16/2017 at 9:34 AM, ConsiderTheSource said:

Once again, I will strongly plead to go talk with these folks.  They know themselves best.  It is really quite silly and disingenuous to want to help a broad group of people by throwing out what ifs, suggestions without even know even one person of the group.

 

She wanted to be left alone.  Others I have spoken with say the same thing. The folks I have spoken with are done with being analyzed, gossiped about, intimidated, being considered "less than" by both well meaning folks, and those who unrationally hate them.  They are being smothered by people/society who are much more interested in either dehumanizing them or disecting them as opposed to treating them like, you know, people.  They live this everyday.  The folks I got to know would be very very happy if they were just left alone and allowed to live unfettered lives where they can have the space to process their lives on their own.

 

On 8/25/2017 at 0:37 PM, knightcore said:

You know you're a man right? You don't have the full vocabulary or understanding, but you know that's what you are? It's the same for me. I feel like me and I know that I am a man. It all really does boil down to personal experience, you are not going to experience manhood the same as every other man on the planet. Neither am I.

 

I don't really have any stats right now, just personal experiences. Many of my friends are transgender, or nonconforming. I see their struggle and I see things like hormone therapy help them feel more at ease with themselves, much in the same way a lot of people take prescription drugs or work out to feel ease with themselves. There is always going to be societal pressure for you to be a certain way, it's much the same for us when we start our transition and want to pass.

 

In terms of wanting to be left alone, that doesn't necessarily always mean by peers and it doesn't mean you don't want support. It means that you want people to stop othering you so much. Every time someone at work says "That can't be your real name. What name did your parents give you?" or "Well that's a strange name for a girl." I want them to leave me alone. When my friend who just tries to use the bathroom is followed around target and stalked and called a tranny and fag, he wants to be left alone. Every time we go out and are squinted at, pointed at or laughed at, we just want to be left alone. We want people with harmful intentions to leave us alone and sometimes we can't tell who is going to hurt us, so we isolate.

 

Suicide is so common, even after transitioning, because we feel like despite all that we have done we will never be accepted. It's not that it doesn't make us feel better about ourselves. I do agree that it's very hard when it comes to kids. You want to affirm them but at the same time they're figuring themselves out still a lot of the time. Sometimes they know, but sometimes their mind changes. All I can say about that is you can do your best to help the child feel safe enough to fully explore. I didn't have that luxury and I've been catching up. It's taken me around ten years to accept myself and I've gone through a few identities trying to land on what I knew but didn't want to admit because of internalized shit.

 

Sorry that this is long, sorry that it's mostly emotional, sorry that I don't have stats. But when you only look at stats and not people's stories it's very easy to brush them off and view it solely as data when this is a real thing that affects real humans.

 

I am also sorry for reviving a week old thread but here we are.

 

Thanks for these comments.

 

A while back I posted my son's story in another thread, and I'd like to post that story again for this thread. It originally followed questioning about parental influence on transgender children, so that's what the account starts off dealing with. Here it is again:

 

At the time that our transgender child came out to us, my wife was still opposed to it and resisted it for a while. Even though I had already changed my mind on the issue by that time, I had never talked about it with our child, nor with anyone in the family, for that matter. It hadn't come up and I didn't want to start any unnecessary controversy within the family. I also didn't want to put any ideas in our child's head. Even though in the back of my mind I had wondered for a long time if "she" would have rather been a boy, I figured that if that was the case, then it would come out on its own. I did not want to instigate with our child an issue that is severely stigmatized in our society.

 

There was a long process that led to his coming out when he was almost 14. Going back to the beginning, she (I'll use the terms "she" and "her" when referring to the time before coming out) had always been a tomboy. Of course, there are plenty of tomboys who aren't transgender, so that was of little significance by itself, but it is a piece that fits in this puzzle. Even as young as probably around 3 or 4 years old, she would refuse to go in the girls' toy aisle when we were in stores. It was too embarrassing for her. Whenever we'd get Happy Meals at McDonald's, she always had us order for a boy so that she would get a boy's toy instead of a girl's toy. When she got big enough for a gender specific bicycle, she insisted on getting a boy's bike. She refused to even get on a girl's bike. The tomboy in her continued, and we had no problem with it. It wasn't a big deal, but it also didn't automatically mean anything more than that she was a tomboy.

 

When she was probably around 11, she started going through a time of depression, and at one point my wife caught her getting into the medicine cabinet to try to find something to overdose on. I quickly bought a chain and a lock for it. She also started cutting a lot, but she would hide it by always wearing hoodies, even if it was really hot. At some point when she was 12, she told us that she liked girls. My wife wasn't thrilled about it but didn't press the issue, seemingly thinking that it would probably just be a phase. I just told our child that it was OK; it didn't matter to me whether she preferred boys or girls. I figured that that was what the depression had been about and that things would get better now that she'd gotten that off her chest. There was even a time when she said that she didn't want to ride a boy's bike anymore and even wore a dress or skirt a time or two, so at that point I thought that my unverbalized question about her wanting to be a boy had been answered.

 

However, the depression continued, and a little while later she became anorexic and started shedding weight quickly. It was confusing to me because she was such an intelligent child who excelled beyond most of her peers. I couldn't wrap my head around how someone that smart could fall into such a clearly irrational disorder, but it turns out that that's not uncommon. We tried to talk to her to find out what was really going on with her, but as with many children that age, she didn't want to open up to us. We did inform her, though, that if she kept losing weight, then we'd have to get her into therapy. Well, that's what ended up happening. After going to a couple counselors, we ended up having to admit her to a full-time eating disorder center a couple hours away. It was a very painful period, but we didn't want to lose our precious child. We got to see her once a week for about an hour, but otherwise it was just a phone call each night.

 

After a few months she was still struggling, but she'd made enough progress that they released her to an out-patient facility. There she had to go to their program five days a week and then she was off for the weekends (but still had to log what she was eating). Though this facility was closer than the other one, it was still a little over an hour away. During this time my wife and I (and often our other child) took turns staying with her through the week at the Ronald McDonald house close to the clinic, and then we'd all be together for the weekends.

 

After a couple months of that, she had improved a little more and they released her to go home as long as we continued other local therapy a couple days a week, which we did. It was still a struggle, but she made strides because she didn't want to have to go back into the eating disorder facilities.

 

Then one evening when I was painting our outside picture-window frame, our child came out and told me that we needed to talk. I agreed and asked what she wanted to talk about. After some hesitation, he finally came out and said, "Dad, I'm not a girl." This was just a few weeks before his 14th birthday, and it was the first time I'd heard a clear indication that he was in fact transgender. I really didn't want that to be the case because of how prejudiced much of society is, but I was very accepting and reaffirmed my love and support no matter what.

 

Eventually he explained to me that the time in which he had tried to be more feminine, it was because of an online Christian friend trying to get him to conform to his birth-gender, as well as what he was hearing at church (when he still went with my wife and daughter) and from some family members, including even my wife and our older daughter. As our child attempted to be feminine, it just didn't work for him. The whole bout of depression, suicidal thoughts, cutting, and anorexia all stemmed from trying to suppress who he is and grapple with issues pertaining to his gender, society's perception, and religion. It had all come to a head and it was just too much to bear.

 

Now that he's out as a guy and being accepted by us (my wife did eventually come around) and accepted or tolerated by others in the family, he's doing much better. Of course, breaking free from religion and getting some ferrets also helped his morale. It was so great once we finally, after a couple dismal years, started seeing him be more alive, chipper, happy, laughing and carrying on again. The difference between the depressed years and now are like night and day. It's great to have our child back, even if he's not the same child we thought we had for many years.

 

I can say with confidence, though, that if it hadn't been for the accepting environment that we created for him, there's a good chance we would've ended up having to bury him. I really think that he would've eventually ended it, and it's painful for me to think about that.

 

I tell you, I am so glad that I have a living son instead of a dead daughter.

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 8/14/2017 at 0:54 AM, Wertbag said:

From reports I've read it appears suicide rates are very high

 

What would you expect for people who are constantly belittled and marginalized by society? If you were constantly being harassed and mocked and told that you aren't supposed to be the very person you are, being bombarded with that over and over and over again, wouldn't you be a bit depressed, too? Who knows, under those conditions you may even consider suicide yourself.

 

Suicide and attempted suicide rates go down substantially among those who are in more supportive environments.

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

As far as related issues, here are my current thoughts.

 

Bathrooms - This is probably the most difficult one. Most of our public restrooms are gender-specific, so where transgender individuals go to the bathroom is an understandably sticky issue. Though I agree with what others have said about how we technically shouldn't be bothered by who's in the stall next to us, it is certainly understandable how some would feel uncomfortable by having it be a transgender person. Although I would hope that people could reach a point of seeing past that, as it stands I would say that their feelings on bathroom comfort are just as important as the transgenders' feelings. I don't see any easy solution to this, but my own transgender child tries to avoid gender-specific restrooms as much as possible. He prefers to find a single gender-neutral restroom or a port-a-potty, or holding it until getting home when he can. It would be great to have more gender-neutral public restroom options.

 

One thing, though, that often gets brought up with regard to the bathroom issue is the alleged potential for a pervert to pose as transgender in order to use bathroom access for sexual assault purposes. That is an understandable concern, but to me it also seems to be a misplaced concern. If a pervert is bent on attacking someone, then that pervert obviously doesn't care about the law, so bathroom laws will not be a deterrent. He'll find a way to do what he wants to do regardless of what laws are in place. Thus, that particular issue doesn't seem to me to be a warranted concern when grappling with bathroom laws.

 

Military Service - I don't see any reasonable grounds for discriminating against transgender people who want to serve their country. As long as they meet all the readiness requirements, they should be allowed in. On the other hand, I'm fine with not having the Pentagon pay for reassignment surgeries, because that's not what the military is there for.

 

Athletic Competitions - Though I'm not into sports, I can see the concern here. Some transgender people would undoubtedly have an unfair advantage in gender-specific competitions. As much as I don't like discrimination, perhaps it would be reasonable to have limitations here. Though I don't really like that option, I'm not sure what good options would be possible.

 

[Thurisaz]

10 hours ago, Citsonga said:

Most of us have probably been around transgender people at times without even realizing it.

 

True that. I admit I find it strange how I only just sometimes bother about (real or suspected) trans persons around me.

A few months ago I took 1st-aid-refresher course and found there was a trans woman among the other participants. Didn't make me feel weird at all, I just found it an interesting experience (and I found it cool how everyone else seemed totally okay with her too ).

Then, a few weeks ago, a trans woman started dropping in at a regular pub meeting I attend when I have time. This one did make me feel a bit weird.

 

My only idea of the "why" so far is: During that 1st-aid thing, there simply was no (realistic) option of anything romantic/sexual possibly happening between her and me. Can't say the same about that gal from the pub meeting... unlikely but possible in that case. If there's other differences they escape me at the moment. *shrugs*

 

9 hours ago, Citsonga said:

As far as related issues, here are my current thoughts.

[...]

Athletic Competitions - Though I'm not into sports, I can see the concern here. Some transgender people would undoubtedly have an unfair advantage in gender-specific competitions. As much as I don't like discrimination, perhaps it would be reasonable to have limitations here. Though I don't really like that option, I'm not sure what good options would be possible.

 

I guess one rather easy solution would be to introduce something like the weight classes in boxing... if, say, a trans woman is physically stronger than cis women in a sport where strength is an advantage, put her into heavy weight instead of cruiser weight (if she doesn't automatically qualify anyway? Guess that depends on the details...). Practical application of that idea, of course, would at least raise quite a few eyebrows. Oh well.

[knightcore]

@Citsonga I was waiting for you to weigh in honestly. Thank you for sharing your family's story again.

[Wertbag]

11 hours ago, Citsonga said:

My transgender son is not bonkers by any stretch of the imagination. He's a normal guy with better-than-average reasoning abilities.

That sentence caught my attention.  Mental illness does not mean you are "bonkers" and does not have to affect your reasoning abilities.  A person with depression has a mental illness, but is perfectly able to carry out their work/studies to a high degree.  This might not be what you meant, but I have certainly seen people link mental illness with insanity, like there is only two options and not a vast range of potentials.

I have a friend whose teenage daughter suffers from anorexia, to the point of having been hospitalised.  She is a perfectly reasonable, intelligent young woman whose mind is broken.  She has linked being beautiful with being thin, and without assistance would have starved herself to death.  It feels similar, this thought that your self image is incorrect.

 

As for the question of sports, they need to stick to pure biology regardless of gender.  Men and women are physically different and it cannot be a fair competition to compete against the other sex.  I believe some organisations were looking to base it on hormone levels, but that ignores the physical structural differences.  Every single Olympic record is at a higher level in the men's competition.  To have Usain Bolt change his mind and win the world record for woman's sprints, thereby holding records for both sexes would be ridiculous.

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 9/4/2017 at 0:18 AM, Wertbag said:

A person with depression has a mental illness

 

No, you're wrong. Depression is sometimes from mental illness, but sometimes it's purely situational and has nothing to do with mental illness. I went through depression as I was deconverting from Christianity, but it was all because of the situation I was in. It had nothing to do with chemical imbalances, and it went away as I came to grips with reality. My son went through depression as he was dealing with the transgender issue (and Christianity), but it was all situational. It had nothing to do with chemical imbalances, and it went away as he became more accepted by himself, his family and other acquaintances. People whose depression is a mental illness do not have their depression disappear just because circumstances change.

[mwc]

     I certainly don't agree that this is a mental illness.  Declaring things as "mental illness" is one of the ways people take away other peoples rights (I'm not saying this is the intention in this thread but simply how the world has worked in general).  They're atypical, as are a great many people including myself, but that's different than a mental illness.

 

          mwc

 

[JadedAtheist]

12 hours ago, Thurisaz said:

I guess one rather easy solution would be to introduce something like the weight classes in boxing... if, say, a trans woman is physically stronger than cis women in a sport where strength is an advantage, put her into heavy weight instead of cruiser weight (if she doesn't automatically qualify anyway? Guess that depends on the details...). Practical application of that idea, of course, would at least raise quite a few eyebrows. Oh well.

The problem is that when it comes to sports, women aren't even in the same ball park when it comes to performance. If you compare top male high school runner's with female world champions, the male high schoolers either beat, or closely match them. Serena and Venus Williams couldn't beat a rank 200 tennis player in the men's division, even despite the fact he drunk a few glasses of alcohol prior to their match. Any sort of handicap system you'd want to impose would need to be drastic enough to the point you might as well get them competing separately. The mitigating factor here is that the hormone therapy they undertake would limit a lot of the benefits they bring, but does not do so entirely, as shown by the fact some transgender athletes (like weight lifters) are still way ahead of the curve.

 

The "issue" then becomes whether or not this is in fact even an issue. By that I mean, should we as a society see a difference between those who are born as woman vs those who transition to being a woman? In other words, should we consider the differences between these two kinds of women the same as the kinds of differences we may think of when we compare marathon runners from Kenya vs say Germany? Yes, a lot of marathon runners are from Kenya, and the African continent, but if that isn't a problem, why should it be for those who transition and go on to dominate women's sports?

[Vigile]

2 hours ago, JadedAtheist said:

Yes, a lot of marathon runners are from Kenya, and the African continent, but if that isn't a problem, why should it be for those who transition and go on to dominate women's sports?

 

I think it might be incredibly demoralizing for women and would discourage many from even participating in sports. As you point out, the divide between men and women here is huge. Not like the divide between Kenyans and the rest of us where long distance running is considered. 

[♦ nivek ♦]

Well hell...

 

In our lives we enjoy company of a young Lady whom we've helped since her early teens go from her dark spots in life to where she is "somebody".  Life for her started when funniMental Dad learned his youngest was no longer a believer or a boy anymore.. "DaDEBBILE!!!!!!"

 

Long story short, Sanctuary offered, taken, beatings stopped, physical healing began; our real honest to some Goddess red headed queer militant lezzie MD Doc fixed up and helped those immediate problems.

When Dad found where his BOY went, a few choice brothers ended up on my front door. 
Funny when MeesterFunni meets Ms FN-FAL and several rotties at door along with many of like minded folks asked him to get his ass back to my property line and not step over it again. (One may argue effectiveness of Men and Arms  in other places. In this case attitudes and proper use worked to save a life or two)

Now some many years later our Lady is an ARNP, world traveler, well adjusted in career path and mind for future with a family of her own.

 

Is a damn fine woman, good friend, fine lover, and enjoys to pursue things she wants.
Dominant in bed, fun to play with, and "intact that way". She is carefully content with discussing her life with those who have honest questions. 

She's earned her positions by hard work, lack of peer pity, quit her casual dope uses, worked hard on her inner self as well as obvious external changes she wanted. Tough road to walk alone when few if any WANT to try and understand. Been proud of her life, bit we at haciendaFatman have been able to contribute. 

Just like any other "born Whatever" every fucking day is a new one. She's learned to be whatever she wants to, in turn chase her passions and goals. 

I'm one of her biggest fans. Thinking that her future at 29 is more than being a "chick with a dick" in niche pr0n movies...

 

kL

[JadedAtheist]

On 9/5/2017 at 3:13 AM, Vigile said:

 

I think it might be incredibly demoralizing for women and would discourage many from even participating in sports. As you point out, the divide between men and women here is huge. Not like the divide between Kenyans and the rest of us where long distance running is considered. 

I think an argument could be made that it shouldn't. There's a big divide between male and female athletes, but that doesn't prevent women from competing in sports. You could argue that there's a difference between indirect and direct competition (with which I'd agree) but it's dependent I suppose on how "other" MTF are perceived. If people look at them as just another woman, perhaps it wouldn't be so much of an issue.

 

Like I said, I'm not really into sports so I have no dog in this fight but I think doing what is "fair" here will at some point be seen more to be discrimination than anything else and will eventually become a reality for future female athletes to deal with. 

[padgemi]

On 9/4/2017 at 9:26 AM, mwc said:

     I certainly don't agree that this is a mental illness.  Declaring things as "mental illness" is one of the ways people take away other peoples rights (I'm not saying this is the intention in this thread but simply how the world has worked in general).  They're atypical, as are a great many people including myself, but that's different than a mental illness.

 

          mwc

 

 

"Mental illness" gets thrown around so loosely it applies to anything from substance abusers to psychopaths to grumpy old obnoxious presidents.  Before long, we "mentally ill" will be the majority.

 

If a transgendered person is experiencing "mental illness" it is probably due to the societal and religious BS they have to deal with and not the sexuality.

[knightcore]

6 hours ago, padgemi said:

 

"Mental illness" gets thrown around so loosely it applies to anything from substance abusers to psychopaths to grumpy old obnoxious presidents.  Before long, we "mentally ill" will be the majority.

 

If a transgendered person is experiencing "mental illness" it is probably due to the societal and religious BS they have to deal with and not the sexuality.

 

Can confirm, honestly. Most of my inner conflict and struggle is because my dad told me it wasn't biblical to be trans and how disparaging most Christians are about it. Ever since I've been in a more accepting environment I've been able to solidify my identity and become much more stable.

[Thurisaz]

I suppose I'm kind of opening Pandora's Box here but oh well... I've steered my ship straight into the iceberg before

 

@knightcore

 

There are those who claim that quite a few people who see themselves as transgender are really just brainwashed by a cultural environment that glorifies one gender over the other so much that they get messed up in the head while growing up. I do not think this is a universal thing at all, so please do not misunderstand this as an attack on you... but I'd like to know your personal opinion on this. Do you think this happens rarely or maybe... not that rarely?

(I don't doubt there are cases like that simply because there's nothing that's too brainfucked for some people doing it... out of principle, knowing how moronic humans can be in general. Why would this be the one exception to a pretty reliable rule? )

[knightcore]

11 hours ago, Thurisaz said:

I suppose I'm kind of opening Pandora's Box here but oh well... I've steered my ship straight into the iceberg before

 

@knightcore

 

There are those who claim that quite a few people who see themselves as transgender are really just brainwashed by a cultural environment that glorifies one gender over the other so much that they get messed up in the head while growing up. I do not think this is a universal thing at all, so please do not misunderstand this as an attack on you... but I'd like to know your personal opinion on this. Do you think this happens rarely or maybe... not that rarely?

(I don't doubt there are cases like that simply because there's nothing that's too brainfucked for some people doing it... out of principle, knowing how moronic humans can be in general. Why would this be the one exception to a pretty reliable rule? )

 

Not misunderstood at all and point taken. I do think society influences a lot of things, especially when it comes to gay culture. I think that some people are shunted into a role they may not relate with because they behave a certain way, or because it's the only explanation they have at the time. For me personally I don't think that transitioning to male is because I wanted more power over the gender I was assigned or because I was ashamed of that gender. But of course I have also met some guys who have transitioned because they weren't "weak" like women are and didn't like pink or something so they must be a guy. 

 

There's a lot of nuances in the lesbian community, because many butch traits overlap with transmasc traits. There's even stone butch which is almost a gender in itself. But a lot of that is more survival in a society that expects a man to have some role in the relationship, and it doesn't undermine their femininity at all.

Please keep in mind that this is completely based on my personal experiences. But I do think it's a little more nuanced than you may think. I think that society is going to affect everyone in the head growing up, and I think that everyone here, both cisgender and transgender, have been fucked up by it. So yeah I do think there's a few cases where someone wants to transition to male because they are tired of being stepped on as a woman. But I think there are many more people who came to terms with their gender after fighting tooth and nail against people who told them that they couldn't be what they knew they were. 

 

I think that honestly and truly you can only take things case by case, and there isn't one overwhelming "trans experience" that we can all relate to. And I think that's part of the reason that people say "well I heard this one thing about trans people so that must be true about you too right?" (not that you are doing that, just in general). Because they're looking for that one experience that every single person has when that simply isn't realistic because humans all have a wide variety of reasons for becoming who they are at the end of the day.

 

... I may have bunnytrailed a bit from your original question so here's a tl;dr: I think that it can happen but I also think there's going to be multiple factors and that it's more deep than that.