florduh

Southern Pride

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Statues. The cause of all America's problems. :)

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Well ofcourse @midniterider, the statues are America's idolatry. We've stopped worshipping God and are now worshipping historical statues! REPENT! AND BE SAVED! 

 

Lmao

 

DB

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     As a sort of devil's advocate (to get a feel for things), what if they did take the lion's share of these Confederate monuments down?  Would people get over it or would they hang onto it (like a lot of folks seem to hang onto the war itself)?  What would the general attitude be?  How long would it be that way?  That sort of thing.

 

          mwc

 

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2 hours ago, mwc said:

     As a sort of devil's advocate (to get a feel for things), what if they did take the lion's share of these Confederate monuments down?  Would people get over it or would they hang onto it (like a lot of folks seem to hang onto the war itself)?  What would the general attitude be?  How long would it be that way?  That sort of thing.

 

          mwc

 

 

It's a good question for the southerners. I have the impression there are a lot of people down there who would take it as a northern intervention on their way of life. This was true with overturning of Jim Crow, and fuck them for that, they had to get over that one as no one should have a right to oppress their neighbors, but this one doesn't seem to be worth the antagonization as it's only about symbolism. 

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37 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

It's a good question for the southerners. I have the impression there are a lot of people down there who would take it as a northern intervention on their way of life. This was true with overturning of Jim Crow, and fuck them for that, they had to get over that one as no one should have a right to oppress their neighbors,

     Right.  Lots of questions.  I'm curious as to the answers.

 

37 minutes ago, Vigile said:

but this one doesn't seem to be worth the antagonization as it's only about symbolism. 

     I see this cropping up here a lot.  I'm not sure I understand it.  I understand symbolism.  I'm not sure I understand this answer.

 

          mwc

 

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41 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Right.  Lots of questions.  I'm curious as to the answers.

 

     I see this cropping up here a lot.  I'm not sure I understand it.  I understand symbolism.  I'm not sure I understand this answer.

 

          mwc

 

 

The people who want the statues taken down are offended by the symbolism they represent, right? My point here is that no one is actually being hurt by their existence. Offended, maybe, but not hurt in any objective, measurable way. The same is true of those who want to keep them. They represent something to them symbolically and taking them down would also represent something symbolic to them. Hence, the issue is one of symbolism. 

 

Did I clear that up or just further muddy the waters? 

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17 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

The people who want the statues taken down are offended by the symbolism they represent, right? My point here is that no one is actually being hurt by their existence. Offended, maybe, but not hurt in any objective, measurable way. The same is true of those who want to keep them. They represent something to them symbolically and taking them down would also represent something symbolic to them. Hence, the issue is one of symbolism. 

 

Did I clear that up or just further muddy the waters? 

     So how are we sure no one is actually being hurt by their existence? (I can concede physical harm unless one falls or something)  What should they be hurt about?

 

     In the same vein how do we know people are hurt by their removal?  What should they be hurt about?

 

     Why should one be preferred over the other?

 

     You mentioned "antagonization" earlier.  Isn't this really the same offense as well?  Only by the removal of the monuments.  So it seems that this is really more a matter of convenience who to antagonize.

 

          mwc

 

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4 hours ago, mwc said:

     As a sort of devil's advocate (to get a feel for things), what if they did take the lion's share of these Confederate monuments down?  Would people get over it or would they hang onto it (like a lot of folks seem to hang onto the war itself)?  What would the general attitude be?  How long would it be that way?  That sort of thing.

 

          mwc

 

     I wouldn't live long enough to see the south get over it if we were forced to take all the statues down. It would only increase the divide and make the issues worse. Like I said before. It seems to me that (in my local area anyway) that racism wasn't an issue with 80s and 90s kids. But since everyone made a big deal about the flags, now the statues, and they are even talking about erasing the memorial off stone Mountain. Racism has spread again because the white southern population feels like their culture is being attacked. The confederacy was a huge part of our history and has shaped our culture. We don't think that should be erased. It represents so much. But I don't think anyone agrees with slavery any longer. No one alive today was a slave, no one wants to take away designated civil war memorials.... (yet) but they do want to single out the confederate memorials. Those men that died and the families that suffered should be remembered. Even if they did fight for bad reasons. Everyone needs to realise that in that time and before that time it was a very different way of life and represented a fundamental change in the dynamics of the south. The war could have been avoided. On both sides they fought because they felt they had to. Remember in some cases it was brothers fighting brothers, cousins fighting cousins, friends fighting friends, and Americans fighting fellow americans. It was more than just slavery. 

 

DB

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9 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

     I wouldn't live long enough to see the south get over it if we were forced to take all the statues down. It would only increase the divide and make the issues worse. Like I said before. It seems to me that (in my local area anyway) that racism wasn't an issue with 80s and 90s kids. But since everyone made a big deal about the flags, now the statues, and they are even talking about erasing the memorial off stone Mountain. Racism has spread again because the white southern population feels like their culture is being attacked. The confederacy was a huge part of our history and has shaped our culture. We don't think that should be erased. It represents so much. But I don't think anyone agrees with slavery any longer. No one alive today was a slave, no one wants to take away designated civil war memorials.... (yet) but they do want to single out the confederate memorials. Those men that died and the families that suffered should be remembered. Even if they did fight for bad reasons. Everyone needs to realise that in that time and before that time it was a very different way of life and represented a fundamental change in the dynamics of the south. The war could have been avoided. On both sides they fought because they felt they had to. Remember in some cases it was brothers fighting brothers, cousins fighting cousins, friends fighting friends, and Americans fighting fellow americans. It was more than just slavery.

     This is a good answer.

 

     You brought up the ties to history, culture and all but discount slavery quite a bit.  I see the references to the white southern history and all in there.  Fair enough.

 

     But what do you do if your family member was a slave?  The argument that it wasn't about slavery for everyone seems hollow.  It was for them.  There's simply no getting around it.  For every slave it was about slavery.  Your life was slavery.  Maybe slavery would have ended decades later of its own accord, a lifetime for most, but that's not the point and is little comfort.

 

     This isn't about some people who happened to own slaves that went to war.  These are people who went to war with slavery being a primary issue.  I imagine had they seceded over issues entirely unrelated to slavery, a war occurred, and slaves were freed some time later that things would be seen in a different light.  That's not the case however.

 

     I know that it seems like things come out of the blue but remember it took awhile for the South the secede in the first place.  They got all riled up then Lincoln wins so they finally left.  People at the top and from the pulpits telling people at the bottom they have to fight.  Not for slavery but because they put the fear saying things like the slaves might become their masters if freed.  People knew what that meant even if they didn't own slaves.  So it seems reasonable that people can take some time to get riled up over these statues.  They get on a slow burn.  It starts with their elders and gets passed down a few generations then *boom* there goes the powder keg.  Maybe great-grandpa hated those things but had to stay in-line so he grumbled to his kids.  They continued the burn and on down the line.  These folks got educated and started educating.  They made sure people knew about those statues.  You mention the flags, so let's be inclusive and just say those are kind of like Lincoln winning to simplify things.  So here we are waging this war.

 

          mwc

 

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1 hour ago, mwc said:

     So how are we sure no one is actually being hurt by their existence? (I can concede physical harm unless one falls or something)  What should they be hurt about?

 

     In the same vein how do we know people are hurt by their removal?  What should they be hurt about?

 

     Why should one be preferred over the other?

 

     You mentioned "antagonization" earlier.  Isn't this really the same offense as well?  Only by the removal of the monuments.  So it seems that this is really more a matter of convenience who to antagonize.

 

          mwc

 

 

I've personally always thought that no one has a "Right" (big R) not to be offended. But yes, people can potentially be offended on both sides of the issue. The question is, which action or inaction now will cause the least amount of division in an already too divided nation. I honestly don't know. I'm happy you asked people like DarkBishop, who are from there, to give their opinion as they are much closer to the issue and can give us a better read on things.

 

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58 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

     I wouldn't live long enough to see the south get over it if we were forced to take all the statues down. It would only increase the divide and make the issues worse. Like I said before. It seems to me that (in my local area anyway) that racism wasn't an issue with 80s and 90s kids. But since everyone made a big deal about the flags, now the statues, and they are even talking about erasing the memorial off stone Mountain. Racism has spread again because the white southern population feels like their culture is being attacked. The confederacy was a huge part of our history and has shaped our culture. We don't think that should be erased. It represents so much. But I don't think anyone agrees with slavery any longer. No one alive today was a slave, no one wants to take away designated civil war memorials.... (yet) but they do want to single out the confederate memorials. Those men that died and the families that suffered should be remembered. Even if they did fight for bad reasons. Everyone needs to realise that in that time and before that time it was a very different way of life and represented a fundamental change in the dynamics of the south. The war could have been avoided. On both sides they fought because they felt they had to. Remember in some cases it was brothers fighting brothers, cousins fighting cousins, friends fighting friends, and Americans fighting fellow americans. It was more than just slavery. 

 

DB

 

I read Howard Zinn's history book a few months back and he seems to argue the same thing you are pointing out here. Racism in its current form didn't exist in pre-colonial US and only really kicked in when the elite of that era fanned its flames in a number of ways pitting groups of poor white indentured servants against poor black African slaves. 

My tin foil hat tells me that this issue didn't just arise in a vacuum either, that it began not as a grass roots movement, but it was astroturfed. I've heard rumors that the DNC has seen a massive influx in fresh donations since Charlottesville. I'd need to confirm this, but it's interesting if true. 

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1 minute ago, Vigile said:

 

I've personally always thought that no one has a "Right" (big R) not to be offended. But yes, people can potentially be offended on both sides of the issue. The question is, which action or inaction now will cause the least amount of division in an already too divided nation. I honestly don't know. I'm happy you asked people like DarkBishop, who are from there, to give their opinion as they are much closer to the issue and can give us a better read on things.

 

     Yep.  I don't really know since I'm removed from it here in SoCal.  I figure if I poke and prod a little I can sort it out a little (at least in my mind).

 

          mwc

 

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1 minute ago, mwc said:

     Yep.  I don't really know since I'm removed from it here in SoCal.  I figure if I poke and prod a little I can sort it out a little (at least in my mind).

 

          mwc

 

 

I think it's smart to poke and prod. If I've learned anything living abroad, it's that you really need to live somewhere to have a full enough understanding to even scratch the surface of most issues. It's so easy to get the wrong impression, even if you're well-read. 

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Just now, Vigile said:

 

I think it's smart to poke and prod. If I've learned anything living abroad, it's that you really need to live somewhere to have a full enough understanding to even scratch the surface of most issues. It's so easy to get the wrong impression, even if you're well-read. 

     Problem is I usually don't tell people upfront and they just think I'm an asshole. ;)

 

          mwc

 

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3 hours ago, Vigile said:

it's only about symbolism. 

Everything is about the symbolism. Refusing to stand for the National Anthem, disrespecting the flag, wearing a swastika....... it's where America, at least, is at these days. Symbolism is all that matters, it seems.

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

Everything is about the symbolism. Refusing to stand for the National Anthem, disrespecting the flag, wearing a swastika....... it's where America, at least, is at these days. Symbolism is all that matters, it seems.

     It's never not been about symbolism.  It's just how you define it.  Just some random thoughts off the top of my head.  Why would ancients raise statues or monuments?  Symbols of religion and/or power.  What else?  Idols (images) were symbols of gods.  In the same sort of vein, Egyptians would destroy the image of the person to keep them from the afterlife.  Symbols have always been powerful.

 

          mwc

 

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2 hours ago, florduh said:

Everything is about the symbolism. Refusing to stand for the National Anthem, disrespecting the flag, wearing a swastika....... it's where America, at least, is at these days. Symbolism is all that matters, it seems.

 

That may be, but those are just distraction issues IMO. Where are these people when it comes to the wars, the lack of democracy and the fucked up justice system? Dead silent and home playing with their video games, that's where. :)

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35 minutes ago, mwc said:

     It's never not been about symbolism.  It's just how you define it.  Just some random thoughts off the top of my head.  Why would ancients raise statues or monuments?  Symbols of religion and/or power.  What else?  Idols (images) were symbols of gods.  In the same sort of vein, Egyptians would destroy the image of the person to keep them from the afterlife.  Symbols have always been powerful.

 

          mwc

 

 

I think I'm Sheldon when it comes to most symbolism. Symbols are powerful, but IMO, it's kind of dumb to get super excited over them like so many seem to do. Burn a flag, wave a flag, both are ultimately meaningless, but people go to blows over these things and people sign up for military duty over these things. It's crazy to me personally. Especially when things that aren't symbolic, but are meaningful get pushed to the side and ignored. 

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People respond and react to symbols before they even recognize reality. I get your point, Vig, but people like and live by their fucking symbols. What to do?

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Another thing to consider. Especially in ga. Is that general Sherman committed what would be considered in today's standards, a war crime, against the southern population. In effect during that era when he cut a swath through ga burning towns and cities as he went, he broke the Spirit of the confederate soldier hastening the end of the war. Sherman is still a dirty word in the GA. It isnt covered in the history books but a lot of people said there was rape going on from Union soldiers etc. I'm not saying Sherman sanctioned it but that goes on in all wars I imagine. 

 

There were a lot of hard fillings in the south at the time and in light of the history you might understand why the men and generals that fought were considered hero's. Even tho they lost. 

 

DB

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4 hours ago, florduh said:

Everything is about the symbolism. Refusing to stand for the National Anthem, disrespecting the flag, wearing a swastika....... it's where America, at least, is at these days. Symbolism is all that matters, it seems.

 

Dont forget, "Under God" must be included in the Pledge of Allegiance, according to numerous Facebook posters who havent been in grade school nor recited the Pledge for 60 years. :)

 

 

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Perhaps the South is a religion of its own. I'm from the West but there is no "West" romance like there is in the South. The South is Dixieland and it means something (that I don't really understand cuz I'm not from there). We have the Pacific Northwest but it will not rise again ... or have any initial rise either. :) It's just a region and nobody cares that much. If someone tears down a statue here it probably isn't a big deal. More people come out to watch the City implode an old building than to protest it.

 

I do have some state loyalty though and it bothers me when people have flag stickers from other states or other countries on their vehicles yet have my state license plate as well.

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4 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

I think I'm Sheldon when it comes to most symbolism. Symbols are powerful, but IMO, it's kind of dumb to get super excited over them like so many seem to do. Burn a flag, wave a flag, both are ultimately meaningless, but people go to blows over these things and people sign up for military duty over these things. It's crazy to me personally. Especially when things that aren't symbolic, but are meaningful get pushed to the side and ignored. 

I'm with you on this @Vigile

there are bazillions of things we can choose to do with our time, but precious little time.  Fighting over old rocks is not worth my time.  But I might make time to help a person from getting torn down.  You know, a real live human being.

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6 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Another thing to consider. Especially in ga. Is that general Sherman committed what would be considered in today's standards, a war crime, against the southern population. In effect during that era when he cut a swath through ga burning towns and cities as he went, he broke the Spirit of the confederate soldier hastening the end of the war. Sherman is still a dirty word in the GA. It isnt covered in the history books but a lot of people said there was rape going on from Union soldiers etc. I'm not saying Sherman sanctioned it but that goes on in all wars I imagine. 

 

There were a lot of hard fillings in the south at the time and in light of the history you might understand why the men and generals that fought were considered hero's. Even tho they lost.

     So, I'm curious, do you see (descendants of) slaves as Union?  Or do they simply not factor in at all?  Because I can see it any number of ways.  But my take on it places them as Union or non-participants.  Either one takes away their place at the table.

 

          mwc

 

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5 hours ago, mwc said:

     So, I'm curious, do you see (descendants of) slaves as Union?  Or do they simply not factor in at all?  Because I can see it any number of ways.  But my take on it places them as Union or non-participants.  Either one takes away their place at the table.

 

          mwc

 

 

I see descendants of slaves and the end of slavery as the only good outcome of a war that ended hundreds of thousands of lives. And the end result was a lengthy animosity toward northern states, the federal govt, and the African American race. 

 

I know at this point it is all a hypothetical situation that myself and a couple of others have mentioned already. But if slavery had been allowed to die out on its on. If the federal govt had offered some type of subsidy so that slave owners could liberate their slaves, pay them, and not have a crippling effect on their profits then maybe and most likely the resulting war, deaths, animosity, and racism that has endured for 150 years would never have happened.

 

Also in many cases (as I've always heard but can't prove) a lot of slave owners treated their slaves like family. Some slaves even after the end of slavery chose to stay where they were. I like to think this is true because there are many African Americans that took on their former master's last name. I can't imagine a slave taking a former master's last name if he was the brutal, slave lashing, slave raping, heretic that was portrayed by the federal govt at the time and what first comes to mind in today's emotionally charged climate. 

 

No one has focused on any story's of good slave owners. Only the bad. And this is another piece of history that the media won't bring up. Because it won't induce good ratings. No one wants to hear the good anymore only the bad.

 

DB

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