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Goodbye Jesus

things we can agree are right/wrong no matter our religions/beliefs what can we agree on?


Joefizz

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6 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

What if, as in my case, it is the parents doing the indoctrinating?

 

In that case, Prof, refer to rule #1. The ignorant get a pardon. :wacko:

 

Are they still around so you can thank them? <_<

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48 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

In that case, Prof, refer to rule #1. The ignorant get a pardon. :wacko:

 

Are they still around so you can thank them? <_<

In their case I'm willing to grant neither pardon not punishment.  I just hope they've learned their Fucking lesson.

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5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

What if, as in my case, it is the parents doing the indoctrinating?

 

I've long thought teaching kids the hell doctrine is child abuse. My parents taught me this and exposed me to this. I give them a pass because they did it out of ignorance and their own sense of love. It's truly an evil doctrine as it convinces the believers that it's their duty to spread the belief and those who most often fall victim are their own children. It is a mind virus. 

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@Vigile I would agree. Hell doctrine is a scare tactic.

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2 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

I've long thought teaching kids the hell doctrine is child abuse. My parents taught me this and exposed me to this. I give them a pass because they did it out of ignorance and their own sense of love. It's truly an evil doctrine as it convinces the believers that it's their duty to spread the belief and those who most often fall victim are their own children. It is a mind virus. 

A valid point,just to be clear on either only hell or only heaven,doctrine,both are incorrect doctrine for if said doctrine does not mention both then it contradicting the bible,so if you know of anyone being preached to that way or you yourself preached to that way,politely explain why their doctrine is false and that you know a Christian who can attest to this so that you have verification by witness and if you have a bible on hand point out how they conveniently didn't mention one of the places,so you also have verification by what was supposed to be their doctrine telling of one of the unsaid places,if they accept correction then they are a Christian and are open to criticism,if they won't even listen or try to send you out the door then are not Christians,and are just using their title of Christian and the bible as a front to do wrong and can't stand when they are caught in a lie.

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11 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

A valid point,just to be clear on either only hell or only heaven,doctrine,both are incorrect doctrine for if said doctrine does not mention both then it contradicting the bible,so if you know of anyone being preached to that way or you yourself preached to that way,politely explain why their doctrine is false and that you know a Christian who can attest to this so that you have verification by witness and if you have a bible on hand point out how they conveniently didn't mention one of the places,so you also have verification by what was supposed to be their doctrine telling of one of the unsaid places,if they accept correction then they are a Christian and are open to criticism,if they won't even listen or try to send you out the door then are not Christians,and are just using their title of Christian and the bible as a front to do wrong and can't stand when they are caught in a lie.

 

Not sure I understand what you are saying. My parents taught me that there was both a heaven and a hell. That doesn't make the hell doctrine any less evil IMO. Personally, I would never feel comfortable in heaven knowing that others were suffering in hell. If god erased my memory, he just brainwashed me, but there would still be people suffering, which means it's not ok. 

IMO, both places are fairy tales. Just fairy tales that cause people psychological trauma when they believe in them. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

Not sure I understand what you are saying. My parents taught me that there was both a heaven and a hell. That doesn't make the hell doctrine any less evil IMO. Personally, I would never feel comfortable in heaven knowing that others were suffering in hell. If god erased my memory, he just brainwashed me, but there would still be people suffering, which means it's not ok. 

IMO, both places are fairy tales. Just fairy tales that cause people psychological trauma when they believe in them. 

 

Well I wasn't sure what your circumstance was for bringing up "teaching hell is child abuse"in your view,so I was guessing some phony preacher may have railed on you but I made my post in general as well to anyone who has or knows someone who has been victimized by people preaching the bible,particularly only preaching on more commonly hell,so as that a person can retort such phony people,I get what you mean though,too quickly are kids preached to or taught about hell,particularly to scare them in to submission to God which is wrong,in my opinion "Intentions" are key concerning hell being taught or preached to kids,after all if a kid wants to learn a person should "Let" them learn about things in the bible not scare them intentionally,precisely why I preferred Veggie tales over learning the bible for a long time because people either made the bible sound more scary or flat out "Boring",seriously why not simply give a kid a little guidance,bring them to church perhaps,and let the kid do some asking about what they would like to learn about in the bible or in life,hell can be mentioned in due time no need to rush a kid to learn a bunch,that's one of the reasons I've been so emotionally devoid,unsociable,and confused,all that cramming my brain with stuff whether I wanted the knowledge or not,it's just ridiculous how people can be toward kids.

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8 hours ago, Joefizz said:

A valid point,just to be clear on either only hell or only heaven,doctrine,both are incorrect doctrine for if said doctrine does not mention both then it contradicting the bible,so if you know of anyone being preached to that way or you yourself preached to that way,politely explain why their doctrine is false and that you know a Christian who can attest to this so that you have verification by witness and if you have a bible on hand point out how they conveniently didn't mention one of the places,so you also have verification by what was supposed to be their doctrine telling of one of the unsaid places,if they accept correction then they are a Christian and are open to criticism,if they won't even listen or try to send you out the door then are not Christians,and are just using their title of Christian and the bible as a front to do wrong and can't stand when they are caught in a lie.

Joefizz, you are probably a nice guy but you write in 'word salad'. Do you know what word salad is? It's when you write in circles and do not answer questions in an honest, direct form. It's an avoidance tactic because you can't answer. I'm sorry sweetie but nothing you are saying makes any sense? Where in the heck did you get this so called 'doctrine'? Did you make it up yourself? 

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3 hours ago, Margee said:

Joefizz, you are probably a nice guy but you write in 'word salad'. Do you know what word salad is? It's when you write in circles and do not answer questions in an honest, direct form. It's an avoidance tactic because you can't answer. I'm sorry sweetie but nothing you are saying makes any sense? Where in the heck did you get this so called 'doctrine'? Did you make it up yourself? 

Well my last two posts I made right after being tired from a double shift,so I tried telling about that preaching or teaching any form of hell or heaven only doctrine is not in accordance with The Bible.

I originally posted to Vigile because I thought Vigile was upset over kids being taught hell,because of him being taught or preached some form of hell only doctrine, he explained that this wasn't the case simply talking on that he felt kids shouldn't be taught hell early in life seeing it as child abuse and I agreed with him.

No I don't really know what "word salad" is though I can guess that it's when a person posts something and it seems to make no logical sense.

I also posted about how that a person that claims to be a Christian but is not in actuality, can be found out by if they preach or teach only heaven or only hell, I was telling everyone here in general that such a thing is a dead giveaway that such people are either liars or they simply haven't thought about what they have been preaching or teaching and could stand some correction.

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Not just "only hell" doctrines.

Anyone teaching kids about hell and telling them that they or their loved ones could end up in there are child abusers, and wrong.

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1 hour ago, yunea said:

Not just "only hell" doctrines.

Anyone teaching kids about hell and telling them that they or their loved ones could end up in there are child abusers, and wrong.

well it is rather "Pointless" because a child according to the bible aren't aware of sin so thereby they can't end up in hell anyways heaven is the only place they can end up,until a child as a reasonable grasp on what sin is they cannot end up in hell,so yes it wrong to a degree because alot of overbearing and foolish Christians tell toddlers about hell which is ridiculous,the person should worry about themselves,because The bible is crystal clear on such things being punishable by God,like I've quoted before Jesus speaking about children...

"If any shall offend these it it would be better that a mill stone be cast about their neck and thrown into the sea" as in if someone is foolish enough to declare unto a child that is unaware of sin that they are bound for hell or worse yet try to get them to do wrong then God will punish them severely to where they shall wish for death,So yeah adults really ought to leave kids be to be well, "Kids",no need to scare them to "Supposedly" teach a child something because depending on the circumstance an adult could be putting themselves into a dangerous situation,many children are "innocent" so they "should" be allowed to be "innocent".

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@Joefizz So in your doctrine what is appropriate to share with children?

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Is the bible the infallible and perfect word of god in your version of christianity?

 

Is every word true?

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14 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well I wasn't sure what your circumstance was for bringing up "teaching hell is child abuse"in your view,so I was guessing some phony preacher may have railed on you but I made my post in general as well to anyone who has or knows someone who has been victimized by people preaching the bible,particularly only preaching on more commonly hell,so as that a person can retort such phony people,I get what you mean though,too quickly are kids preached to or taught about hell,particularly to scare them in to submission to God which is wrong,in my opinion "Intentions" are key concerning hell being taught or preached to kids,after all if a kid wants to learn a person should "Let" them learn about things in the bible not scare them intentionally,precisely why I preferred Veggie tales over learning the bible for a long time because people either made the bible sound more scary or flat out "Boring",seriously why not simply give a kid a little guidance,bring them to church perhaps,and let the kid do some asking about what they would like to learn about in the bible or in life,hell can be mentioned in due time no need to rush a kid to learn a bunch,that's one of the reasons I've been so emotionally devoid,unsociable,and confused,all that cramming my brain with stuff whether I wanted the knowledge or not,it's just ridiculous how people can be toward kids.

 

Real supreme beings dont have places of eternal torture. Eternal torture isn't even fair. Why is God's creation more compassionate than he is? I would never send anyone to eternal torture. Certain people I might singe their butts for a second or two but forever and ever? Why do people think that's justified? That's crap. 

 

A simple minded angry or deranged human being is what the bible God is like.

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57 minutes ago, knightcore said:

@Joefizz So in your doctrine what is appropriate to share with children?

 

Big Bang Theory and Evolution!

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1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

well it is rather "Pointless" because a child according to the bible aren't aware of sin so thereby they can't end up in hell anyways heaven is the only place they can end up,until a child as a reasonable grasp on what sin is they cannot end up in hell,so yes it wrong to a degree because alot of overbearing and foolish Christians tell toddlers about hell which is ridiculous,the person should worry about themselves,because The bible is crystal clear on such things being punishable by God,like I've quoted before Jesus speaking about children...

"If any shall offend these it it would be better that a mill stone be cast about their neck and thrown into the sea" as in if someone is foolish enough to declare unto a child that is unaware of sin that they are bound for hell or worse yet try to get them to do wrong then God will punish them severely to where they shall wish for death,So yeah adults really ought to leave kids be to be well, "Kids",no need to scare them to "Supposedly" teach a child something because depending on the circumstance an adult could be putting themselves into a dangerous situation,many children are "innocent" so they "should" be allowed to be "innocent".

What exactly is the point of sunday school then? So sunday school up until that magical age of accountability is a place where children go to learn only about all the wonderful Jesus love stuff, and the reality of Christianity isn't introduced to kids until after that age of accountability? In my church the understanding was that until the age of accountability, anyone who died automatically went to heaven. Regardless of that doctrine, we were introduced to the concept of hell around age 4 and I vividly recall having nightmares about if I would go to heaven if I was to die at night, with all the sinning I had done.

Regardless of all this, I agree with Yunea, anyone teaching kids about hell and telling them that their loved ones might go there is abusing them. I'd really like to know why as  a sunday school teacher I was expected to teach and even better instill the fear of hell in kids, when there was no reason to. Oh, perhaps it had something to do with the expectation that children are to be brainwashed from a young age, lest that fear doesn't become great enough and they somehow stray from the right path later on in life.

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2 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

What exactly is the point of sunday school then? So sunday school up until that magical age of accountability is a place where children go to learn only about all the wonderful Jesus love stuff, and the reality of Christianity isn't introduced to kids until after that age of accountability? In my church the understanding was that until the age of accountability, anyone who died automatically went to heaven. Regardless of that doctrine, we were introduced to the concept of hell around age 4 and I vividly recall having nightmares about if I would go to heaven if I was to die at night, with all the sinning I had done.

Regardless of all this, I agree with Yunea, anyone teaching kids about hell and telling them that their loved ones might go there is abusing them. I'd really like to know why as  a sunday school teacher I was expected to teach and even better instill the fear of hell in kids, when there was no reason to. Oh, perhaps it had something to do with the expectation that children are to be brainwashed from a young age, lest that fear doesn't become great enough and they somehow stray from the right path later on in life.

Why instill fear into children who are already heaven bound?

It beats the bananas out of me why anyone does such,"Stupidity"!

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4 hours ago, knightcore said:

@Joefizz So in your doctrine what is appropriate to share with children?

Well it all depends first on what you mean by asking about "my doctrine" I don't have a doctrine,ifand you are referring to the bible,then my answer is that everything in the bible is "Appropriate" to "Teach" at   an "Appropriate" Time to children,and "should not" be forced,as for when that "Appropriate" time is,that "should" be a matter of "common sense" but unfortunately people jump the gun so to speak,telling of a bunch of information that a child most likely isn't even thinking about.

It's almost as if people forget that "They" were once "Kids",I still remember my childhood,what was I thinking about,"having fun" no matter how silly the activity was and not thinking of consequences,somehow Gasp,no thoughts of doing any evil,it wasn't until "After" I was "told" of evil things that I starting having a fare few evil thoughts,telling a kid that's already heaven bound about hell to supposedly "help them" is as dumb and hurtful if not more so than,putting only one nail into building an entire house and having it collapse on you while building it,because both hurt the individual that does so as well as the receiver and benefits noone.

 

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So a follow up question then, do you not believe that we were born into sin?

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11 minutes ago, knightcore said:

So a follow up question then, do you not believe that we were born into sin?

Yes I believe we are born into sin but I also believe that we being born is not the sin of whom is born,but rather whom conceived the child whom bears the sin of the child being born into the world of sin.

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So... the parents are committing sin by bringing the child into the world? I'm not trying to be dense I'm just trying to parse your point of view here.

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3 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Why instill fear into children who are already heaven bound?

It beats the bananas out of me why anyone does such,"Stupidity"!

 

Why tell kids a story about a guy who was nailed to a cross and stabbed in the side? It's so violent.

Why tell kids to drink the blood of Christ and eat his body? Sounds like a horror movie? Seems like vampirism to me. Symbolically, anyway.

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1 hour ago, knightcore said:

So... the parents are committing sin by bringing the child into the world? I'm not trying to be dense I'm just trying to parse your point of view here.

Yeah I get that you are trying to gain understanding toward ourlooks speaking of which this reminded me that I haven't viewed the site,a person shared,and I promised I'd look into it,I would give you a like for your post but I still can't like anyone's posts after posting nearly 100 times,good talking with you.

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11 hours ago, Jeff said:

Is the bible the infallible and perfect word of god in your version of christianity?

 

Is every word true?

^^^

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7 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Yeah I get that you are trying to gain understanding toward ourlooks speaking of which this reminded me that I haven't viewed the site,a person shared,and I promised I'd look into it,I would give you a like for your post but I still can't like anyone's posts after posting nearly 100 times,good talking with you.

 

Good talking to you too but you didn't answer my question still.

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