things we can agree are right/wrong no matter our religions/beliefs what can we agree on?

[MOHO]

1 hour ago, Joefizz said:

Well considering how many people  "Fear" or at least dread hell with or without proof that is proof to me of it's existence.

 

The only thing this is proof of is the real damage that xtian indoctrination and brain-washing can do.

[bornagainathiest]

  1 hour ago, buffettphan said:

 

Prove it -- without using the bible, which is not real evidence.

 

JoeFizz wrote...

Well considering how many people  "Fear" or at least dread hell with or without proof that is proof to me of it's existence.

 

Joe,

 

Your logic is faulty.

sdelsolray has already pointed out that your argument is flawed because you are using a formal logical fallacy known as the argument from popularity.  https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity  You are saying that because a great many people fear/dread hell, it must be real.  Here is a worked example of that argument from popularity, where you can easily see the flaw.  

 

Before Columbus every mariner believed that the Earth was flat and that you could sail right off the edge of the world.

If you had lived in those times and used the same reasoning as you did in your reply to buffetphan, then you would have concluded that because every mariner believed in a flat Earth, the Earth was flat.  That because everyone believes it, it must be true.  However, we know that the Earth isn't flat.  It's a sphere, no matter how many people think otherwise.  Do you see the difference?  Belief doesn't make something true.  Nor does something become true, just because a lot of people believe it.  Nor does something become true for you, because a lot of people believe it.  Things are true for everyone if they apply to everyone.  Since the Earth is a sphere for everyone, then that is true for everyone.  

 

So, the important thing for you to now realize is that belief is no real guide as to what is true.

It doesn't matter if a lot of people believe something or if you believe it.  What makes something true is the evidence for it.  Which is why buffetphan asked you to prove your assertion that hell is real, using facts and not using your faith in the truth of the Bible.

 

There's also something else you should know when it comes to facts and faith in this forum, but before I share that with you, please tell me if you understand this message, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

[Joefizz]

16 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

  1 hour ago, buffettphan said:

 

Prove it -- without using the bible, which is not real evidence.

 

JoeFizz wrote...

Well considering how many people  "Fear" or at least dread hell with or without proof that is proof to me of it's existence.

 

Joe,

 

Your logic is faulty.

sdelsolray has already pointed out that your argument is flawed because you are using a formal logical fallacy known as the argument from popularity.  https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity  You are saying that because a great many people fear/dread hell, it must be real.  Here is a worked example of that argument from popularity, where you can easily see the flaw.  

 

Before Columbus every mariner believed that the Earth was flat and that you could sail right off the edge of the world.

If you had lived in those times and used the same reasoning as you did in your reply to buffetphan, then you would have concluded that because every mariner believed in a flat Earth, the Earth was flat.  That because everyone believes it, it must be true.  However, we know that the Earth isn't flat.  It's a sphere, no matter how many people think otherwise.  Do you see the difference?  Belief doesn't make something true.  Nor does something become true, just because a lot of people believe it.  Nor does something become true for you, because a lot of people believe it.  Things are true for everyone if they apply to everyone.  Since the Earth is a sphere for everyone, then that is true for everyone.  

 

So, the important thing for you to now realize is that belief is no real guide as to what is true.

It doesn't matter if a lot of people believe something or if you believe it.  What makes something true is the evidence for it.  Which is why buffetphan asked you to prove your assertion that hell is real, using facts and not using your faith in the truth of the Bible.

 

There's also something else you should know when it comes to facts and faith in this forum, but before I share that with you, please tell me if you understand this message, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Precisely why I said "to me" indicating that this is one of my personal beliefs on the matter of hell whether biblically or not.

[Joefizz]

22 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

The only thing this is proof of is the real damage that xtian indoctrination and brain-washing can do.

Well "Anything" can be taught wrong by being harassive or forceful,that's particular where brainwashing can occur not by simply teaching or preaching a subject without force.

[MOHO]

8 minutes ago, Joefizz said:

Well "Anything" can be taught wrong by being harassive or forceful,that's particular where brainwashing can occur not by simply teaching or preaching a subject without force.

 

@Joefizz,

 

I, and the entire psychological community disagree with this assertion.

 

Wrong things, or anything for that matter, can be "taught" via repetition. Regardless of how the material is presented.

And the fuckheads behind the pulpit know and count on this fact!

 

EDIT: I am NOT part of the psychological community and cannot speak for them. This is my opinion  based on years of reading.

[Joefizz]

32 minutes ago, MOHO said:

 

@Joefizz,

 

I, and the entire psychological community disagree with this assertion.

 

Wrong things, or anything for that matter, can be "taught" via repetition. Regardless of how the material is presented.

And the fuckheads behind the pulpit know and count on this fact!

 

EDIT: I am NOT part of the psychological community and cannot speak for them. This is my opinion  based on years of reading.

A valid point which is what I meant by being harassive,reciting things in a constant manner such as chanting is rather an insisting way of brainwashing people,but what I am getting at is that brainwashing requires forcing a new mind set,as you said in repetition often which I see as harassive behavior if the individual is forced to hear something over and over in a deliberate attempt to warp someone's mind to an individual's liking,as well as that an unhinging of one's mind occurs to where the person follows an individual's orders upon the basis that they have been abused so much that their mind sees doing what the individual wants after forms of abuse have occurred,that is contradictory to "Teaching".

Teaching is when you give knowledge to people that they could use or not use,in their lives,without afflicting an individual.

Brainwashing is when an individual is subjected to cruelty to the point that they do what a person wants,because they can't fathom another way to keep from further abuse,so they submit to the person's way of thinking,serving them obediently not of their own actual free will but because their mind has been distorted,from such abuse.

They are two entirely different practices.

[sdelsolray]

2 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

  1 hour ago, buffettphan said:

 

Prove it -- without using the bible, which is not real evidence.

 

JoeFizz wrote...

Well considering how many people  "Fear" or at least dread hell with or without proof that is proof to me of it's existence.

 

Joe,

 

Your logic is faulty.

sdelsolray has already pointed out that your argument is flawed because you are using a formal logical fallacy known as the argument from popularity.  https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity  You are saying that because a great many people fear/dread hell, it must be real.  Here is a worked example of that argument from popularity, where you can easily see the flaw.  

 

Before Columbus every mariner believed that the Earth was flat and that you could sail right off the edge of the world.

If you had lived in those times and used the same reasoning as you did in your reply to buffetphan, then you would have concluded that because every mariner believed in a flat Earth, the Earth was flat.  That because everyone believes it, it must be true.  However, we know that the Earth isn't flat.  It's a sphere, no matter how many people think otherwise.  Do you see the difference?  Belief doesn't make something true.  Nor does something become true, just because a lot of people believe it.  Nor does something become true for you, because a lot of people believe it.  Things are true for everyone if they apply to everyone.  Since the Earth is a sphere for everyone, then that is true for everyone.  

 

So, the important thing for you to now realize is that belief is no real guide as to what is true.

It doesn't matter if a lot of people believe something or if you believe it.  What makes something true is the evidence for it.  Which is why buffetphan asked you to prove your assertion that hell is real, using facts and not using your faith in the truth of the Bible.

 

There's also something else you should know when it comes to facts and faith in this forum, but before I share that with you, please tell me if you understand this message, ok?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Excellent book.  More than excellent...superb.

[midniterider]

Christianity is a more subtle manipulation of your mind. Churchies reel you in with the Loving God....then later on program you with guilt, shame, fear.

[Joefizz]

27 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Christianity is a more subtle manipulation of your mind. Churchies reel you in with the Loving God....then later on program you with guilt, shame, fear.

Well that is rather accurate,since the focus is on realization of that one is a sinner,but my point is that depending on what people do with Christianity doctrine and beliefs,knowledge of Christianity can be used in a correct and orderly and decent way or it can become a freaky cult or contradicting ministry like snake churches or Catholic Churches,both twisting the bible to their liking whether on purpose or unintentionally,just like any religion what is done with the religion is according to the people that make up the religion or section of that religion,naturally personal beliefs play a factor too,no church or place of worship is ever going to function in a civil and docile manner for too long after it's been established,because of all the many people that make it up and also the many people that may come with contrary beliefs,all is always a working progress until things are totally established then the church or place of worship finds some primary beliefs they can agree on and see how things function,typically it's the "Personal Beliefs" that can send any place of worship or religion spiralling into chaos or even just one or two foolish people taking on themselves to do something they shouldn't,to get a place of worship or religion a bad reputation.

Religion can be functional without unnecessary conflict toward others but unfortunately the longer a religion lasts the more people are going to most likely start doing what they want not worrying about consequences,but that's why "Faith" is important in any religion because people start practicing what they believe instead of just talking as if they believe it,chaos can end up in any group of people,if people start not caring who they hurt with words or otherwise.

[Joefizz]

Time to get this thread back on track...

A person must work to earn money,we can agree this is "Right" to do as opposed to being lazy and unproductive.

[buffettphan]

On 9/1/2017 at 10:09 PM, Joefizz said:

Time to get this thread back on track...

A person must work to earn money,we can agree this is "Right" to do as opposed to being lazy and unproductive.

 

 

Can't totally agree with this ^.    There are people who do important work but don't get paid.  They are neither lazy nor unproductive.   Some people collect a salary but are lazy and unproductive and make their co-workers' lives miserable.   Some people are physically or mentally unable to work.   

 

Try again.

[Joefizz]

14 minutes ago, buffettphan said:

 

 

Can't totally agree with this ^.    There are people who do important work but don't get paid.  They are neither lazy nor unproductive.   Some people collect a salary but are lazy and unproductive and make their co-workers' lives miserable.   Some people are physically or mentally unable to work.   

 

Try again.

Great point,ok I'll try again.

[Joefizz]

It is "Wrong" to not consider the outlook of a person whom you are discussing with because neither person learns from the discussion making it into an argument if both act in this mind set.

[LogicalFallacy]

6 hours ago, buffettphan said:

 

And I have a cute little pink unicorn in my back yard.   

 

 

 

That's actually my unicorn. I have claimed it as my personal God that I speak too. - Check my "Still have any gods" answer. You are now trying to claim my god but your religion is false.

[LogicalFallacy]

On 8/31/2017 at 1:41 PM, Joefizz said:

Why instill fear into children who are already heaven bound?

It beats the bananas out of me why anyone does such,"Stupidity"!

 

The reason is simple. If offered a good thing for which there is no proof most people come to the realization that the good thing does not exist and carry on their merry way. Religions don't like people carrying on there merry way so they invent some incentive to want to have the good thing in order to keep people adhering to their religion. It's just a form of population control. Once you don't fear hell, and you realize heaven doesn't exist Christianity loses its hold on you.

 

On 8/31/2017 at 4:17 PM, Joefizz said:

Yes I believe we are born into sin but I also believe that we being born is not the sin of whom is born,but rather whom conceived the child whom bears the sin of the child being born into the world of sin.

 

That's convoluted.

 

So for you what is "Sin"

 

And how did this "Sin" come about?

 

Cheers

LF

[Blamtasticful]

Anyone else notice how Joe has both identified with the concerns of the harm that preaching hell to kids may bring while also arguing that it is no more harmful than watching the texas chainsaw massacre within the same thread? This is just evidence of trying to use whatever tactics seem to help one's position regardless of whether or not the argument is good or is contradictory. This seems quite troublesome Joe.

[Vigile]

10 hours ago, mwc said:

     Ironically heaven is no better.

 

     My friends and I would try to sort out the idea of a place where everyone was the best at everything and no sadness (it's sad to lose).  All that.  This would come up at recess.  And we'd often play basketball.  So we couldn't figure out a place where all games ended in a draw.  It just seemed so boring.  No matter the hype.  Take away any sort of fun and toss in eternal church and that's torture too.

 

     We just believed that it had to be better than we were being told or some sort of "magic" spell/lobotomy would fix our problems once we got there.

 

          mwc

 

 

The original Twilight Zone had an episode about this. A gangster was shot and walked through a door into a mansion where everything was perfect. At first he was thrilled, but later discovered how bad it was that everything worked out his own way. He couldn't play pool as his first shot would knock in every ball. Every woman he looked at was ready for him without any effort on his part. At the end of the episode he realized he wasn't in fact in heaven, but in hell. 

[Vigile]

8 hours ago, Joefizz said:

Well considering how many people  "Fear" or at least dread hell with or without proof that is proof to me of it's existence.

 

You need a course in critical thinking. 

[Vigile]

8 hours ago, florduh said:

Congratulations. that's the dumbest "argument" for Hell that I've ever seen, and I've seen plenty. 

 

I'm starting to think Poe.

 

I don't think Poe. You can see by his writing that his mind is unorganized and confused. He lacks education to put his thoughts in order. 

[SerenelyBlue]

14 hours ago, Joefizz said:

I wouldn't say any joke would be on God in that scenario,but rather satan because he'd have to listen to you not God after all in the bible it's made clear that heaven and hell are completely isolated,so with satan as technical ruler of hell he would be the annoyed one lol!

so are you thinking on that song in the scenario,burn baby burn disco inferno?hahaha hahaha hahaha.

Where does it say that satan is the ruler of the place of eternal punishment.  That is folklore, not scripture.  The dragon burns with everyone else.  Then again, Christianity is myth.

[SerenelyBlue]

Joefizz, do you realize that you are doing harm to the image of Christianity by displaying faulty reasoning and lack of knowledge?  Send us someone who can be an ambassador for Christ.  You are doing more harm than good.  This is not the right place to sow your seeds of evangelism.

[mwc]

5 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

The original Twilight Zone had an episode about this. A gangster was shot and walked through a door into a mansion where everything was perfect. At first he was thrilled, but later discovered how bad it was that everything worked out his own way. He couldn't play pool as his first shot would knock in every ball. Every woman he looked at was ready for him without any effort on his part. At the end of the episode he realized he wasn't in fact in heaven, but in hell. 

     Yeah, I think that I recall that ep now that you mention it.  That was a good show (sure it had plenty of duds in the mix but what can you do).  Too bad they can't seem to come up with anything like it these days.

 

          mwc

 

[♦ ficino ♦]

Wow, now I finally understand about heaven. It's a place where not everything is perfect, and whatever you get takes effort. Like, oh no, we have to sing Pass It On agAIN before we can get some peace and quiet?

[buffettphan]

13 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

That's actually my unicorn. I have claimed it as my personal God that I speak too. - Check my "Still have any gods" answer. You are now trying to claim my god but your religion is false.

 

I think our unicorns might be cousins.  You have the Southern Hemisphere variety and I have the Northern Hemisphere one.   Mine provides unlimited beer at my request (better than anything any god ever provided).  Yours?            

[Joefizz]

10 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

Where does it say that satan is the ruler of the place of eternal punishment.  That is folklore, not scripture.  The dragon burns with everyone else.  Then again, Christianity is myth.

It is "Implied" in the bible,and you are welcome to believe what you want.