Sign in to follow this  
Kris

Veil Rending

Recommended Posts

I was reading on a Christian Forum on the topic of the rending of the veil and what sorts of proofs there were of it. One person's answer really confused me, and I tried to look up his information to see if it was valid, but couldn't find anything. He said:

Basically, the curtain that was torn was not the curtain between the holy of holies and the holy place... it was the curtain on the outer doors of the temple. How were the people on the hill able to see this curtain being torn if it was the curtain to the holy place?!?! As well, there is a prophecy in Isaiah where one asked, "If a man were to lose his son he would rend his clothes. But what would G-d do if he lost his son? He would rend the curtain on the gates of the temple." (his paraphase)

1. Was there some sort of prophecy in Isiaiah regarding god rending the temple curtain due to the loss of his son? I couldn't find it.
2. If there is this prophecy, why isn't is mentioned anytime the veil is discussed?
3. Is there some other text that this guy is getting mixed up with Isaiah?
4. Has ANYONE heard of this so called prophecy?

Just curious. The forum was rather old. I did try to contact the gentleman who wrote this, but he hasn't gotten back to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


PLEASE EXCUSE THE ANNOYING COMMERCIAL BREAKS IN THE CONVERSATION:

As with everything these days, the cost of keeping the Ex-C forum up and running has been rising. Inflation? In part, but the primary reason is this: As participation in the forums grows, costs increase. The Ex-C forums will remain free of charge to everyone, but if you believe this little corner of the Internet provides value to you or others, and you feel inclined to help keep us online, please consider making a one-time donation or becoming a regular contributor. Contribution options appear under the "Upgrade" link above, and can be accessed by clicking here.

Oh, and as an incentive (no, you won't be given any bogus promises of eternal bliss), if you do become a regular contributor by signing up for any monthly or yearly patron package, this annoying ADVO will disappear.

And now, back to the regularly scheduled conversation...



My advice would be to stop reading Christian apologist & visiting Christian sites. History provides a significant amount of evidence that reveals Christianity & the Bible has human origins. The Bible simply is not true literally or historically. The Bible prophecies that came  true have been shown to have been written after the event predicted occurred. The accuracy rate for predicting things that have already happen is 100%.

 

Robert M Price, Bart Ehrman, David Fitzgerald, & Richard Carrier are historians that have written some excellent books on the history of the Bible & Christianity,  and if you'd rather listen than read then they have lots of good information on YouTube.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kris,

 

Wouldn't a better question from a skeptic be... 'Are there any references to a tearing of the temple veil from any Jewish or pagan sources?' ...?

 

If not, shouldn't that start alarm bells ringing in your skeptical mind?

 

After all, the starting position of skepticism isn't acceptance and belief, is it?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have to look up the reference, but I remember reading about Philo or Josephus discussing the veil as embroidered with jewels to represent the constellations. The veil representing the visible universe of the time of place, apparently. Ripping from the top down making some reference to the universe being torn from the top down. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a friend who is a very knowable Jew & she indicates the Jews have no historical record of this alleged event & she assures me an event like that would have been recorded in Jewish history. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I looked up every verse in the Bible that had "son" in it--- I used biblehub and scanned the verses quickly-- but couldn't find anything related to what this person said.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Notice that the believer made a vague reference from memory and settled on it as fact. It wasn't and isn't fact. Even if there were a "prophecy" about it, all we have in the gospel story is a story. The writer could not have known about it, even if it did happen, unless someone else told him. The believers will often say that the gospels are bona fide eyewitness accounts that give credibility to the miracles, but then circle back around and claim that they knew to write about these things because of miraculous knowledge given to them by Jesus since they clearly couldn't know about them otherwise.

 

Since we have no credible evidence, and no writings from 3rd parties about such an event (nor anyone describing the many dead people that allegedly walked out of the cemetery and into Jerusalem after the resurrection), there is no reason to believe it happened at all, but is simply a story written "so that you might believe". No one else wrote about the events in Acts either, like Pentecost when all the foreigners exclaimed that these Jews were praising god in their languages, blah blah.

 

Matthew 27

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fuego said:

Notice that the believer made a vague reference from memory and settled on it as fact. It wasn't and isn't fact.

I too could not find any such prophetic verse. I did find a website where the writer said that the torn curtain was as God's tearing of his garment over the death of His son. So I think the guy on the forum where Kris visited was just a guy who had heard this image used in a sermon or found it on the website and was wrongly remembering it as a prophecy. Or else just lying for Jesus.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is some rabbinical stuff about a priest's being able to look from the Mt. of Olives to the temple and into the doorway. mwc and kris know those texts better than I. I don't think the Romans would have gone all the way to the upper parts of the Mt. of Olives to crucify anyone. It's a considerable schlep, and since it's not close to the city, the crosses with the bodies would not serve to deter very many. 

 

A Christian apologist can make up auxiliary assumptions, such as:

 

1. well, maybe the Romans feared the Passover crowds so they wanted to crucify Jesus in an out of the way place.

FAIL. If they were that afraid, they would not have crucified him then, with festival crowds present in Jerusalem. AND they would not do it far from their own reinforcements.

 

2. well, maybe they crucified Jesus on the Mt. of Olives because he claimed to be King of the Jews, he had ridden into Jerusalem from that direction on Palm Sunday and entered the temple as king, so they want to prove he is not king.

FAIL. Crucify him close to the gate where messiah is supposed to enter the temple, not way up the hill.

 

Away with these unsupported auxiliary assumptions!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30/08/2017 at 7:25 PM, ficino said:

There is some rabbinical stuff about a priest's being able to look from the Mt. of Olives to the temple and into the doorway. mwc and kris know those texts better than I. I don't think the Romans would have gone all the way to the upper parts of the Mt. of Olives to crucify anyone. It's a considerable schlep, and since it's not close to the city, the crosses with the bodies would not serve to deter very many. 

 

A Christian apologist can make up auxiliary assumptions, such as:

 

1. well, maybe the Romans feared the Passover crowds so they wanted to crucify Jesus in an out of the way place.

FAIL. If they were that afraid, they would not have crucified him then, with festival crowds present in Jerusalem. AND they would not do it far from their own reinforcements.

 

2. well, maybe they crucified Jesus on the Mt. of Olives because he claimed to be King of the Jews, he had ridden into Jerusalem from that direction on Palm Sunday and entered the temple as king, so they want to prove he is not king.

FAIL. Crucify him close to the gate where messiah is supposed to enter the temple, not way up the hill.

 

Away with these unsupported auxiliary assumptions!

 

Another auxiliary assumption a Christian apologist might be inclined to make is a kind of New Testament re-working of Old Testament Christian apologetic argument.

 

There is no mention of the plagues of Egypt, the departure of the Hebrew slaves or the destruction of an Egyptian army in the Red sea in any Egyptian histories.

Christian apologists might assume that such events DID happen, but were deliberately excluded or expunged from the records to save face. 'History is written by the victors' as the old saying goes, so if nothing is written about disastrous events, then a given society can pretend that they never happened.  Thus, their status appears undiminished and unblemished.

 

Now transfer that agenda to 1st century Israel.

To save face and to continue to show that the God of Israel still had to be separated from His people by a veil, what else would the Temple priests do but cover up and deny that the veil was torn apart?  

 

Away with this unsupported auxiliary assumption too!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couldn't say for sure, but I actually read Isaiah fairly recently, and don't remember a passage like that. Nor did I manage to find one by doing a quick search on Google. That's not to say that such a passage definitely isn't there — The Bible contains a huge amount of text, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/30/2017 at 9:28 AM, Fuego said:

Notice that the believer made a vague reference from memory and settled on it as fact. It wasn't and isn't fact. Even if there were a "prophecy" about it, all we have in the gospel story is a story. The writer could not have known about it, even if it did happen, unless someone else told him. The believers will often say that the gospels are bona fide eyewitness accounts that give credibility to the miracles, but then circle back around and claim that they knew to write about these things because of miraculous knowledge given to them by Jesus since they clearly couldn't know about them otherwise.

 

Since we have no credible evidence, and no writings from 3rd parties about such an event (nor anyone describing the many dead people that allegedly walked out of the cemetery and into Jerusalem after the resurrection), there is no reason to believe it happened at all, but is simply a story written "so that you might believe". No one else wrote about the events in Acts either, like Pentecost when all the foreigners exclaimed that these Jews were praising god in their languages, blah blah.

 

Matthew 27

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

I would think zombies coming out of tombs and appearing to people would be worthy of some Roman citizen crapping their pants and writing about it but nope. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this