Narcissism and Christianity

[Guest Ann]

Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

I was raised by a Christian narcissistic mother. The same moment in my life when I was waking up to the fact that Christianity was BS, I also was waking up to narcissistic abuse. I believe now, that religions attract narcissistic people. I'm not saying non-religious people can't be narcissists, just that my experience is HOW MANY narcissists hide behind their religion. My experience with religion was Christianity (like the website's title) so I can only tell my experience concerning this religion, but am curious if other religions have a similar pattern. Also, when I waking up to narcissistic abuse, I had no idea a condition called Narcissism was even "a thing."

 

Narcissists gaslight. This is a tactic used by the abuser. She/he tells a lie and then makes YOU feel crazy for not believing their lie. Isn't Christianity one big gaslighting organization? For example. How many exchristians were told the stories at a young age about creation, or Noah's ark, Jesus walking on water, (take your pick) and thought this was impossible and not rational? And, when you as a child questioned these stories, YOU were made to feel like the crazy one!? Or maybe you would be shamed (another narcissistic tool) because you didn't have enough faith? Textbook narcissistic tactics.

 

There are many many more tactics narcissists use to control and abuse....but I won't write a book that has already been written.  I encourage every exchristian to really research what Narcissism is. I got help watching youtube clips on the subject.

 

I do want to write about how this abuse shielded in Christianity affected my life after I let go of the religion.

 

Because I was raised believing right can be wrong, up may be down, constantly challenged over inner gut feelings, and love was not free or unconditional.....love had to be earned...I have struggled in my personal life after leaving "the church." I would find a narcissist partner and because I thought they were not a Christian, I could/would not be controlled. Wrong. I had been conditioned and raised by the church and I believe this conditioning left me more vulnerable to others who have a desire to control. For me leaving "the faith" was a cake walk compared to having to reassert what I truly believe in, who I really am, and what is healthy in my life and relationships. The church raises people to accept lies and be controlled and this in turn had transferred to all areas of my life after leaving.

 

I am now totally awake and aware. I can smell BS a mile away and have the self confidence to stand up for my thoughts. It took a long time (10 years) but made it. I still have to do "gut checks" once in a while, but over all practicing healthy brings me closer to healthy.

 

Just wondering if other exchristians have had a similar struggle and maybe their source of personal struggle can be tracked back to Narcissism?

 

 

 

 

 

[MOHO]

@Ann,

 

I think anyone that truly believes that that there exists a single supreme being that has their personal interests in mind would have to be somewhat of a narcissists. 

 

Beyond that I have been noticing narcissist behavior in most of Mrs. MOHO's friends from her church. I am not a psychologist so this is purely my opinion - for what it's worth. I have noticed a correlation between the strength of the faith and the level of this self-infatuation.

 

Examples:

      1. Yes, of course we're going to start with Mrs. MOHO. She has been called out on her narcissism by her own family and I have illustrated on this site how over the top, even in the eyes of her fundy family members, her religious addiction is. Everyone in the world must think, act, look and worship who and like she does. A true religious fascist in my midst. Other family members have expressed how she places herself up on a very high pedestal as far as how much better and smarter she is than anyone else living. This is especially annoying when I note that she never completed high school.

 

2. Mrs. MOHO's shadow: I told her a lie that I was claustrophobic, rather than admit my atheism, when refusing to enter the sanctuary last Winter. She replied "I can fix that!" "I truly can!" "Would you like me to demonstrate?"

           What she meant here is that she was intending to prey for me, using the power bestowed on her in various scripture that gives Jesus's power to heal to true believers. The emphasis was very much on herself at this point.

 

3. Worship band leader: (there are 4 or 5 but I'm referring to the most accomplished one) is the most self-centered, condescending prick I have ever met. Speaks of how god have him musical ability beyond belief. He's good but not THAT good. Anyway he never gives pause to his relentless evangelizing. The man is condescending in all of his interactions with other human beings so much so that, when I see him coming, I head the other direction. So do many others.

 

I could go on but I think you get my point that the most "faithful" in my life also display very strong narcissistic behavior.

[buffettphan]

In my not-so-humble-opinion, anyone who believes s/he has a direct hotline to the almighty has to be a narcissist!    

[knightcore]

Personally I think that abusers gravitate towards religion because it gives them a way out. They can always pray it away or they can hide behind the church which protects them.

[sdelsolray]

Many sects of the Christian religion promote and enable grandiosity, narcissism and self-centeredness.  I suspect a tendency to be this way needs to be present in the believer in the first place for it to grow and become true DSM-5 personality disorders.

[MOHO]

38 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Many sects of the Christian religion promote and enable grandiosity, narcissism and self-centeredness.  I suspect a tendency to be this way need to be present in the believer in the first place for it to grow and become true DSM-5 personality disorders.

 

OK.

THAT'S why I was never really an "on-fire for jebus" chritty. Because I'm not full of myself.

 

And THAT'S not a narcissistic attitude at all! 

 

[Geezer]

Most narcissist don't realize that they are narcissist. I didn't realize until later in life that I was displaying narcissistic tendencies. I knew I wanted to be in charge of pretty much everything all the time. I also recognized I had a my way or the highway attitude too. An incident happened that caused me to lose a lot of friends and no one had to tell me that it was my fault, because I knew it was. 

 

That was a watershed moment in my life. I knew something was wrong with me and I decided I had to find out what it was. As it turns out I'm not a full blown narcissist but I do possess narcissistic tendencies. I started putting two and two together and realized my mother was a narcissists. I've come to believe this is a genetic problem that is passed on to offspring. 

 

My daughter, daughter in law, and grandson all exhibit narcissistic tendencies. My DIL is the worst. Unfortunately, there is no cure or therapy or anything else to fix this problem.It basically comes down to self awareness and a personal resolve to control those tendencies. If a person cannot accept the reality that they have narcissistic tendencies that is a strong indication they are over the top narcissistic and there isn't much of anything that can be done to fix them. Those folks end up spending a lot of time alone because other people can't stand to be around them. 

 

The positive side of narcissism is that narcissist generally make great leaders specifically because of their over abundant self confidence and take charge attitude. I think every president in recent times has been an over the top narcissists especially our current president. If you have a major company you probably want a strong narcissist to run it for you, but you wouldn't want to work for him/her. Most really successful people have strong narcissists traits, and that is a big reason they are so successful. 

 

As for religion Ministers and church leaders often display narcissistic traits. A narcissists craves the spot light and does not like to be told they are wrong about much of anything. A really strong narcissist will explode in rage if challenged about their leadership skills or if someone corrects a mistake they make. I'm certain my narcissistic  tendencies had a lot to do with me being an Elder in the Church of Christ. That was a big spot light in the c of c. The Elders ran the show, so being asked to be an Elder was a really big deal. Elders in the c of c were like Jesus personal buddies. We were inspired servants of the Lord Jesus don't ya know. The fact the other Elders never gave me the secret handshake should have been a clue.  (Just kidding, there was no secret handshake, or at least I don't think there was.)

 

On the positive side for me, I was self employed and ran a successful small business for 38 years. I had several long time employees so I apparently wasn't a monster to work for. In fact, for some reason correcting the mistakes of others was never a problem for me. I could do that with gentleness and an understanding attitude. Something along the lines of....this is a problem but we can fix it, was easy for me to do. 

 

The reverse of that unfortunately wasn't true. Don't get in my face and tell me I'm wrong because I would likely go off like a bomb. When I became aware of my narcissists traits dealing with my anger issues took center stage. I'm very happy and proud to say I haven't lost it in a very, very, long time now. I've learned to smile and walk away when I'm challenged now. The fact I'm retired now helps too. I definitely do my best to stay out of the spot light in social situations. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Geezer]

2 hours ago, knightcore said:

Personally I think that abusers gravitate towards religion because it gives them a way out. They can always pray it away or they can hide behind the church which protects them.

 

A true narcissist will gravitate towards anything that puts them in the spotlight. They absolutely crave authority, attention, and the admiration of others. Kind of like everybody in Hollywood, huh? 

[MOHO]

Hey, @Geezer,

 

It takes a lot of guts, integrity, and introspection to admit our flaws and correct them - especially narcissism. I figure that one is the toughest of all potential personality disorders.

 

Now, don't let that go to your head!

[Guest Ann]

I really appreciate you all for responding to this post. It is my first and I am grateful for the feedback.

 

What I have learned....so far concerning Narcissism is a narcissist will NEVER admit they were or are wrong. "I was wrong" does not exist. If Christianity were a person then a narcissist they would be. "The word or god" is never wrong only the people who don't believe are wrong and one can never question "the word." The affect for me personally was always believing I was wrong. What a mind fuck for a child that eventually zapped my self esteem and confidence while teaching me to accept lies as the truth. Gaslighting 101. And the whole forgiveness BS. I can do whatever I want to whomever I want (pedo Catholics anyone?) and god will forgive and I accept that god forgave because it says so in the bible.  The mental gymnastics of it all! And again I'm the crazy one for not believing!? Yuck. Every part of this religion is dripping with narcissist abuse.

 

The more I learn about Narcissism the more "ah-ha" moments I have concerning my Christian upbringing, my past behaviors and relationships, and my mother.... of course.

 

On another note, when learning to free myself from narcissistic abuse there is a solution. No contact with the abuser. For me with religion I no longer had contact from the place of abuse (church and the people who participate). I ran like my hair was on fire so far as moving to another continent and at the time, having no idea what narcissistic abuse was. Fight or flight I guess.

 

@Geezer To admit you were wrong is quintessentially not a narcissistic trait. You may have behaviors you want to change (don't we all) and if you felt remorse and can admit fault does not fit NPD. Unless you did it for self gain and what you wrote did not feel (to me) like you had anything to gain other than insight. Good on you.

 

@MOHO I am new to this site, so still figuring out how to sort through the overwhelming amount of posts. I would like to read your past posts about Mrs. MOHO if that is ok with you. Just let me know where to find them. I find it interesting how you walk the tightrope of family vs your non-belief. I have been there and to some respect every year or two, when I visit my hometown still balance a mother who still "believes" and my knowledge of the truth.

[MOHO]

5 hours ago, Ann said:

I really appreciate you all for responding to this post. It is my first and I am grateful for the feedback.

 

What I have learned....so far concerning Narcissism is a narcissist will NEVER admit they were or are wrong. "I was wrong" does not exist. If Christianity were a person then a narcissist they would be. "The word or god" is never wrong only the people who don't believe are wrong and one can never question "the word." The affect for me personally was always believing I was wrong. What a mind fuck for a child that eventually zapped my self esteem and confidence while teaching me to accept lies as the truth. Gaslighting 101. And the whole forgiveness BS. I can do whatever I want to whomever I want (pedo Catholics anyone?) and god will forgive and I accept that god forgave because it says so in the bible.  The mental gymnastics of it all! And again I'm the crazy one for not believing!? Yuck. Every part of this religion is dripping with narcissist abuse.

 

The more I learn about Narcissism the more "ah-ha" moments I have concerning my Christian upbringing, my past behaviors and relationships, and my mother.... of course.

 

On another note, when learning to free myself from narcissistic abuse there is a solution. No contact with the abuser. For me with religion I no longer had contact from the place of abuse (church and the people who participate). I ran like my hair was on fire so far as moving to another continent and at the time, having no idea what narcissistic abuse was. Fight or flight I guess.

 

@Geezer To admit you were wrong is quintessentially not a narcissistic trait. You may have behaviors you want to change (don't we all) and if you felt remorse and can admit fault does not fit NPD. Unless you did it for self gain and what you wrote did not feel (to me) like you had anything to gain other than insight. Good on you.

 

@MOHO I am new to this site, so still figuring out how to sort through the overwhelming amount of posts. I would like to read your past posts about Mrs. MOHO if that is ok with you. Just let me know where to find them. I find it interesting how you walk the tightrope of family vs your non-belief. I have been there and to some respect every year or two, when I visit my hometown still balance a mother who still "believes" and my knowledge of the truth.

 Hey @Ann,

 

Of course you can read all of my posts and I hope I don't come off as whining about my situation too much. You know what "they" say - whining simply tells others you are not in control of the situation.

 

My understanding of this site it that you can find all of someone's posts by clicking their "avatar" and navigating to posts from there. I'm sure someone will correct me if this is not completely accurate.

[ag_NO_stic]

On 9/18/2017 at 6:32 AM, Ann said:

Has anyone had a similar experience?

 

I was raised by a Christian narcissistic mother. The same moment in my life when I was waking up to the fact that Christianity was BS, I also was waking up to narcissistic abuse. I believe now, that religions attract narcissistic people. I'm not saying non-religious people can't be narcissists, just that my experience is HOW MANY narcissists hide behind their religion. My experience with religion was Christianity (like the website's title) so I can only tell my experience concerning this religion, but am curious if other religions have a similar pattern. Also, when I waking up to narcissistic abuse, I had no idea a condition called Narcissism was even "a thing."

 

Narcissists gaslight. This is a tactic used by the abuser. She/he tells a lie and then makes YOU feel crazy for not believing their lie. Isn't Christianity one big gaslighting organization? For example. How many exchristians were told the stories at a young age about creation, or Noah's ark, Jesus walking on water, (take your pick) and thought this was impossible and not rational? And, when you as a child questioned these stories, YOU were made to feel like the crazy one!? Or maybe you would be shamed (another narcissistic tool) because you didn't have enough faith? Textbook narcissistic tactics.

 

There are many many more tactics narcissists use to control and abuse....but I won't write a book that has already been written.  I encourage every exchristian to really research what Narcissism is. I got help watching youtube clips on the subject.

 

I do want to write about how this abuse shielded in Christianity affected my life after I let go of the religion.

 

Because I was raised believing right can be wrong, up may be down, constantly challenged over inner gut feelings, and love was not free or unconditional.....love had to be earned...I have struggled in my personal life after leaving "the church." I would find a narcissist partner and because I thought they were not a Christian, I could/would not be controlled. Wrong. I had been conditioned and raised by the church and I believe this conditioning left me more vulnerable to others who have a desire to control. For me leaving "the faith" was a cake walk compared to having to reassert what I truly believe in, who I really am, and what is healthy in my life and relationships. The church raises people to accept lies and be controlled and this in turn had transferred to all areas of my life after leaving.

 

I am now totally awake and aware. I can smell BS a mile away and have the self confidence to stand up for my thoughts. It took a long time (10 years) but made it. I still have to do "gut checks" once in a while, but over all practicing healthy brings me closer to healthy.

 

Just wondering if other exchristians have had a similar struggle and maybe their source of personal struggle can be tracked back to Narcissism?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Holy. Shit.

 

I just read this post, after our chatting on your other post, and I can't get over how similar we sound without me having seen this. I literally just commented about how I have issues because of having to earn love, my mind is so blown right now.

 

I have the hugest issue with fake people because of my fake, overly christiany mom. I am direct and wear my emotions pretty visibly (if I'm not putting up walls, it's complicated lol) because I can't stand having this "everything's peachy, I'm fine and my house is all clean" vibe if it's not true. At the same time, I am not about to tell people my life story and am very guarded about really personal shit (it's kinda funny all of this is coming out, I haven't posted anything like this on the site before.) It's not even just working to earn love for me, I struggle to not want to make it look like I've got everything together. Christianity hides the deep sins and celebrates the "vulnerable" minor ones as evidence of our need for god, it'z bizarre. "I cussed" or "I tell white lies" is met with a chuckle and shake of the head, but "I had premarital sex" is like....the worst thing ever.

 

I can't stand to hear christians bitching and gossiping like crazy about a fellow christian unless they find it out as part of someone's "testimony." You're a slutty druggie alcoholic harlot unless you stand before everyone and humiliate yourself with your deepest sins and profess your need for a savior. Then the whole congregation will defend your "prodigalness" and embrace you. It makes me sick.

 

Sorry for word diarrhea. Basically, my whole life revolved around how my mom was doing emotionally, at the expense of my own. I got scary good at reading her mood and adjusting accordingly even when I was borderline suicidal from hating my life under her roof. I think that narcissist's need for control (not that everyone who feels like they need control is a narcissist) comes out as "god says you shouldn't...." or whatever, which culminates in authoritarian tendencies. They're all connected. 

 

There are no words for how "in control" I feel of myself and my actions since I realized I am most certainly NOT a "captive" to my "sin" or "fleshly desires." Like, no your total depravity mindset keeps you a prisoner, not "sin." Wake up and own up to your own actions.

 

I have a lot more to say, we should probably pm lol.

 

 

[Guest Ann]

@ag_NO_stic What is pm? Do you mean time to sleep cause it's late? GenXer here (I'm 46) and am slow with techie lingo........god I'm lame.  And like reading about your experience and insights because I do believe we have the same mom. Ha!

[ag_NO_stic]

Just now, Ann said:

@ag_NO_stic What is pm? Do you mean time to sleep cause it's late? GenXer here (I'm 46) and am slow with techie lingo........god I'm lame.  And like reading about your experience and insights because I do believe we have the same mom. Ha!

 

It means "personal message" and I'll reach out. I'm interested in your feedback!

[God]

I mean....I am pretty much the token narcissist. Christians run around telling people they were created for my glory and cater their only life around my whims, it's actually hard to believe sometimes. And I know "hard to believe," trust me... what with the whole gospel shit.

[Guest Ann]

@God I knew it! Thanks god for finally admitting to years of suspicion.

[R. S. Martin]

On 9/19/2017 at 2:17 PM, Ann said:

@ag_NO_stic What is pm? Do you mean time to sleep cause it's late? GenXer here (I'm 46) and am slow with techie lingo........god I'm lame.  And like reading about your experience and insights because I do believe we have the same mom. Ha!

 

I'm another kid with the same mom. 

 

It's been so helpful reading this thread. Finally I understand stuff I never could put my finger on. My mother was nothing if not into shaming. If she accidentally slipped out of the spotlight, she stepped right back in. Passive-aggressive as all get-out. Two-faced as the moon. Right now I'm having a hard time with the idea that she lied but I'm sure she did and I put it down to me being too stupid to seeing the obvious--which seemed always to be the case. 

 

She once told me, "A person who asks so many questions shows everyone how stupid they are." My much younger sister told me in adulthood that when she saw the way I was treated for asking questions she decided asking questions was not okay. 

 

If control is so extremely important, and if narcissists cannot tolerate being wrong, I can now see why my mother seemed to hate me. I could not help seeing flaws of logic. Nor could I help questioning authority. I was born this way. I can't tolerate internal intellectual dissonance. I think my intellect only got sharper the more she tried to manipulate me because her manipulation forced me to find that edge for leverage to protect myself--at least internally if I could not stop the external verbal abuse.

 

Another source of abuse came from the larger community. I was born into a horse and buggy community. Every Sunday we heard sermons on the evils of all other people outside our own community. One could go to hell for wearing the wrong colour, having the parting for one's hair off-centre, laying the pleats on one's dress the wrong way. The list goes on. That's where I started wriggling myself loose--the inconsistencies of these "rules." There were ways around the letter of the law of these rules and my mother made the mistake of being inconsistent in her "rulings." When I pointed out such inconsistencies, she would only sigh as in "Oh RS! You are so exasperating." She would NEVER admit to being wrong, having made a mistake.

[Guest Ann]

@R. S. Martin Welcome to the narc club.  

 

In all seriousness....I'm sorry. The abuse is painful and difficult to explain to others if they haven't experienced it. Learn all you can about Narcissist and their MO. Knowledge is power and doubly so concerning narcs. For me, the more I learn  (4 years of self guided "research") the more "ah ha" moments I have.

[R. S. Martin]

8 hours ago, Ann said:

@R. S. Martin Welcome to the narc club.  

 

In all seriousness....I'm sorry. The abuse is painful and difficult to explain to others if they haven't experienced it. Learn all you can about Narcissist and their MO. Knowledge is power and doubly so concerning narcs. For me, the more I learn  (4 years of self guided "research") the more "ah ha" moments I have.

 

I'm following your advice. Mom died ten years ago but her voice remains in my head and some of my siblings take after her quite strongly. Thus, I find myself still seeking answers on what happened to me. "Know thine enemy" seems to be good advice at times. Anyway, I found an article "11 Signs of Gaslighting in a Relationship." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-signs-gaslighting-in-relationship It's my mother every step of the way! 

 

Some of her favourite lines, when a child expressed a wish or desire or opinion, were a dismissive: 

• You're just imagining things!
• You don't know what you want! (if it differed with Mom's ideas)
• You don't know yourself! (meaning the child lacked self-knowledge)
• You must have forgotten what really happened.
• You just don't understand. (no explanation would be given to aid understanding differing views)

I remember a time in my life when I didn't trust my own perceptions--seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touch--because she contradicted whatever I said so often and inconsistently. Then ridiculed me for  not knowing such simple stuff. But denied it when I reminded her of "last time you said so and so." 

 

Anne, this is really helping me get some insight. Thanks so very, very much for posting this thread. It feels so good and liberating to find answers even yet, forty and fifty years later. 

[ag_NO_stic]

7 hours ago, R. S. Martin said:

 

I'm following your advice. Mom died ten years ago but her voice remains in my head and some of my siblings take after her quite strongly. Thus, I find myself still seeking answers on what happened to me. "Know thine enemy" seems to be good advice at times. Anyway, I found an article "11 Signs of Gaslighting in a Relationship." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-signs-gaslighting-in-relationship It's my mother every step of the way! 

 

Some of her favourite lines, when a child expressed a wish or desire or opinion, were a dismissive: 

• You're just imagining things!
• You don't know what you want! (if it differed with Mom's ideas)
• You don't know yourself! (meaning the child lacked self-knowledge)
• You must have forgotten what really happened.
• You just don't understand. (no explanation would be given to aid understanding differing views)

I remember a time in my life when I didn't trust my own perceptions--seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touch--because she contradicted whatever I said so often and inconsistently. Then ridiculed me for  not knowing such simple stuff. But denied it when I reminded her of "last time you said so and so." 

 

Anne, this is really helping me get some insight. Thanks so very, very much for posting this thread. It feels so good and liberating to find answers even yet, forty and fifty years later. 

 

Yes, welcome! I'm sorry to hear about the shit she said/did to you and it's not cool. Glanced at your article....numbers 3 and 4 were most like mom. She would project her false assumptions as the truth and it was bizarre. She knew it was important to me to have her approval, so she would withhold it and hold it over my head almost. She would make assessments about my character and assert them as fact, when I knew it wasn't true, and it confused the absolute fuck out of me. Combine "you're being selfish" with "you can't help it, you're a totally depraved sinner" and there was no way I was getting out of without issues. It pisses me off to think about.

[florduh]

True Believers of Christianity are in a unique position. They can denigrate themselves and claim how unworthy they are, yet the god of all creation works through them and they have his ear. 

[R. S. Martin]

13 minutes ago, florduh said:

True Believers of Christianity are in a unique position. They can denigrate themselves and claim how unworthy they are, yet the god of all creation works through them and they have his ear. 

 

The bolded line is one of the passive-aggressive approaches I was referring to. How can one not think such a person is humble to the level of saintliness, and therefore accept the person's judgment as credible and valid. I think now that this is exactly what the narcissist expects of his/her victims. This strategic use of religious values for selfish gain is exactly what makes it so devastating to the honest unwitting target.

[Guest Ann]

On 9/18/2017 at 12:32 PM, Ann said:

I am now totally awake and aware. I can smell BS a mile away and have the self confidence to stand up for my thoughts. It took a long time (10 years) but made it. I still have to do "gut checks" once in a while, but over all practicing healthy brings me closer to healthy.

I feel kinda bad about this statement I wrote above. As if to say to myself, "Look ma, (and religion) all better now." I haven't "made it" and although have made some positive changes in my life, am still learning. Having read everyone's feedback has helped me realize this. Thank you exchristian community! You all have been so helpful.

[R. S. Martin]

5 hours ago, Ann said:

I feel kinda bad about this statement I wrote above. As if to say to myself, "Look ma, (and religion) all better now." I haven't "made it" and although have made some positive changes in my life, am still learning. Having read everyone's feedback has helped me realize this. Thank you exchristian community! You all have been so helpful.

 

That kind of stuck out but I figured you meant that you now know what was going on and won't let it happen again, to the best of your ability. We need to reach that point of confidence. At the same time, healing is a process. Sometimes I think it's a lifelong process and that it permeates every facet of life and relationships and decision-making. 

[Guest]