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Goodbye Jesus

Uniqueness Points Towards Christianity


Guest end3

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8 hours ago, end3 said:

"Ye are gods", "a little lower".

 

Here's the way I see it.  If God is absolute, then his creation would be a form of absolute.  Uniqueness is a form of absolute. 

 

"Ye are gods" is affirmation that the creation is a form of God.

 

"Made a little lower" is again affirmation that we are not absolute in the same sense God is absolute.

 

I haven't said that humanity was absolute in the total absolute sense.  I find it interesting that the Bible addresses these issues.....more that a coincidence imo.

 

Thx, I appreciate the comments.

 

 

As a pantheist I have to agree that we are all God. Everyone and everything is God. It's more than a coincidence that Jesus speaks like a pantheist.

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5 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

End,

 

You are still asserting/assuming/claiming that humans are unique, without presenting any evidence that we are.

On Sept 26 I asked you to present evidence that we are unique.   "The fact that we are unique individuals.  (Evidence?)"

On Sept 29 I asked you to present evidence that we are unique.   "It also remains for you to justify your claim that we are all different and unique."

Later on the same day I pointed out that you had five assumptions in your argument, one of them being your assumption that we are unique. 

"You've assumed that we are called (#1), you've assume that we are unique (#2) and now, in response to Florduh's input, you are making a threefold assumption.

1.  God exists.

2.  This God is the Christian God of the Bible.

3.  This God is an absolute.

 

So, even if today's claim (that uniqueness is a form of absolute) is correct, unless you present evidence that we are unique - then you have no argument.

If you are right about everything else, but we are not unique - then you have no argument.  Your entire argument hangs on you presenting evidence that humans are unique.  If you cannot or will not do that - then you have no argument.   Unless you can justify your claim for the uniqueness of humans with evidence, everything you've written in this thread amounts to no more than your opinions and speculations.  

 

Yes, I realize that you might consider these words to be some kind personal attack or you might refer to me as some kind of hopeless, rule-bound purist.

So be it.  I cannot shift from this position because it's not negotiable.  I'm sorry, but I don't make the rules of logical argument - but I do my best to follow them.

 

Now, you've made the claim/assertion/assumption that humans are unique. 

It therefore falls to you to justify that claim.  Please note that your personal and subjective thoughts, feelings, speculations and opinions on this matter do not justify your claim.  The only thing that does and that makes the cut is objective evidence.  Please present this to us.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

I think your science background gives you high levels of certainty BAA, that even if we were somehow the same, that our personal chemistries make us extremely different.  If we just look at any parameter within our bodies, we would immediately see a difference, i.e. unique. 

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Our DNA is unique, as is our indigenous microflora; but, then, so is that of monkeys, potatoes, and Jews.  That points to evolution (which is supported by evidence); not to god.  And certainly not to the jesus version of god.

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1 hour ago, end3 said:

I think your science background gives you high levels of certainty BAA, that even if we were somehow the same, that our personal chemistries make us extremely different.  If we just look at any parameter within our bodies, we would immediately see a difference, i.e. unique. 

 

You and BAA have identical ATP chemistry in your bodies, you each have two arms, two legs, two eyes and two lungs, and one penis, among hundreds of other identical or similar attributes and properties.  Neither of you are unique.  You are identical in part, similar in part and different in part.

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16 hours ago, end3 said:

I think your science background gives you high levels of certainty BAA, that even if we were somehow the same, that our personal chemistries make us extremely different.  If we just look at any parameter within our bodies, we would immediately see a difference, i.e. unique. 

 

Ok End,

 

Now you've started to make your case.

But please note that even if I agree with you 100% and even if I have the scientific knowledge to understand that we are unique, it's not for me to just accept your unsupported assumption that we are.  You still have to make your case, with evidence, from the outset.  It's not my role to agree with your assumptions, at any point.  It's your role to present your evidence from get go, assuming nothing about my ability to understand.

 

I hope you can see and agree with this.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 9:21 PM, sdelsolray said:

 

You and BAA have identical ATP chemistry in your bodies, you each have two arms, two legs, two eyes and two lungs, and one penis, among hundreds of other identical or similar attributes and properties.  Neither of you are unique.  You are identical in part, similar in part and different in part.

When you say different in part, then that makes us unique.  There is no identical.  There may be similar mechanisms that produce similar consequences, but nothing identical that I am aware.  Also, you would have a wonderfully difficult time demonstrating identical.  Thanks.

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End3, what makes identical twins... identical?

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7 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

End3, what makes identical twins... identical?

Before you start attempting to demonstrate my lack of knowledge, when I think of identical, I'm thinking of constant reactions, constant generation, constant degradation......i.e the interaction with the environment.

 

In the interim, I shall try to educate myself regarding your question.

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So if we had one egg, one sperm, two babies, I still can't imagine identical generation in the womb.  This makes me think the possibility of identical only lies in some space time continuum snapshot....  maybe.

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No.  That is inaccurate.

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Identical DNA is what makes identical twins identical.  Are they still unique despite having identical DNA?  Certainly.  But even that doesn't point to god; it points to nature/nurture.

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7 hours ago, end3 said:

When you say different in part, then that makes us unique.  There is no identical.  There may be similar mechanisms that produce similar consequences, but nothing identical that I am aware.  Also, you would have a wonderfully difficult time demonstrating identical.  Thanks.

 

End,

 

Please understand that even if identical isn't demonstrated, that doesn't automatically mean that unique is demonstrated.

You don't succeed in demonstrating unique, just because someone else fails to demonstrate identical.  Both you and they could be wrong, which is why each person's claims need to be weighed on the merit of their evidence and not on the demerits of the other's evidence.

 

Therefore, if you want unique to be demonstrated, you still need to present evidence to support that claim. 

You have claimed that we are unique, but haven't supported that claim with evidence.  Please do so.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

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9 hours ago, end3 said:

When you say different in part, then that makes us unique.

...

No.  It only makes you and BAA different...in part.  I was only comparing you and BAA, not every item of existence in the universe.  Try again.

 

9 hours ago, end3 said:

...

There may be similar mechanisms that produce similar consequences, but nothing identical that I am aware. 

...

Why does you lack of awareness apply to anything being discussed?

 

9 hours ago, end3 said:

...

Also, you would have a wonderfully difficult time demonstrating identical.

Why do you always resort to infantile semantics?  Why would my time demonstrating two identical items be "wonderful"?

 

Being passive-aggressive is one of your addictions.

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13 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

No.  It only makes you and BAA different...in part.  I was only comparing you and BAA, not every item of existence in the universe.  Try again.

 

Why does you lack of awareness apply to anything being discussed?

 

Why do you always resort to infantile semantics?  Why would my time demonstrating two identical items be "wonderful"?

 

Being passive-aggressive is one of your addictions.

S, I think you are way too intelligent to argue about this.   I do, though, appreciate your attempts at helping me, if that's actually what you are trying to accomplish.  Actually two thoughts; I don't know if it would help me to dedicate my time to added knowledge, because it one, would take effort and moreover time, when time is becoming shorter.  Also, I'm not sure you have anyone that enjoys, can relate, to the level of intelligence you possess.  I can imagine that you constantly analyze your own assessments.  I do sincerely hope that you are enjoying life.

 

With that said, I can cut the aggression, I just need a little trust. 

 

To the subject, the odds of anything being rigidly identical are probably to large to calculate.

To my original point, this THEN demands that we investigate each unique individual so they are known and potentially valued/loved.  I think if even if we made this step, and not much more, we would be years ahead with civilization. 

 

This points to the Christian message. 

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42 minutes ago, end3 said:

S, I think you are way too intelligent to argue about this.   I do, though, appreciate your attempts at helping me, if that's actually what you are trying to accomplish.  Actually two thoughts; I don't know if it would help me to dedicate my time to added knowledge, because it one, would take effort and moreover time, when time is becoming shorter.  Also, I'm not sure you have anyone that enjoys, can relate, to the level of intelligence you possess.  I can imagine that you constantly analyze your own assessments.  I do sincerely hope that you are enjoying life.

 

With that said, I can cut the aggression, I just need a little trust. 

 

To the subject, the odds of anything being rigidly identical are probably to large to calculate.

To my original point, this THEN demands that we investigate each unique individual so they are known and potentially valued/loved.  I think if even if we made this step, and not much more, we would be years ahead with civilization. 

 

This points to the Christian message. 

 

The Christian message is what? John 3:16? Lets all be unique in praising Jesus? Let's all be unique in reading the same scripture. Let's all be unique by attending church on Sunday. Let's all think in a unique way? I dont think so.  Christianity wants conformity.

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5 minutes ago, end3 said:

(snip)

 

To the subject, the odds of anything being rigidly identical are probably to large to calculate.

To my original point, this THEN demands that we investigate each unique individual so they are known and potentially valued/loved.  I think if even if we made this step, and not much more, we would be years ahead with civilization. 

 

This points to the Christian message. 

 

End,

 

How can something that is probably beyond human calculation place some kind of demand upon us to investigate it? 

Things beyond human calculation are known as uncountable infinities and they are treated as abstract mathematical concepts, not as real and physical things.   An uncountable infinity is impossible to investigate.  It cannot be meaningfully measured, divided, broken down, analyzed or compared to any part of itself.  There is no way to tell how common or uncommon anything is within an uncountable infinity.   It signals the end of investigation - not the beginning.  Therefore, whatever is beyond human calculation places no demands on us whatsoever.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountable_set 

 

Cosmologists are quite familiar with uncountable infinities and still have no solution to the problem of how to assign meaningful values to anything in an infinitely-large cosmos.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_problem_(cosmology)

.

.

.

Also, you are still claiming that humans are unique without presenting any evidence that they are.

Evidence please.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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On 9/26/2017 at 1:13 PM, end3 said:

Isn't the fact that we are unique individuals, point towards Christianity and the Christian message.... to know each other, feed each other, drink a few wineskins full of wine together....(whatever the hell a wineskin is).  The prevalent ideology these days is exact equality for everyone, but we aren't in fact equal.  Yet the population screams out, "make me equal in your eyes, love me in my inequality"......essentially trying to define a law where everyone is "loved".

 

Once again, checkmate, you heathens.  lol.  ( I keed, I love most of you).

 

 

Eh, no, that is nowhere near a checkmate. It's rather incoherent, actually. People simply having differences does not even remotely point to any particular religion as truth. For the life of me, I don't see how anyone would even come up with such a silly notion.

 

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13 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

Eh, no, that is nowhere near a checkmate. It's rather incoherent, actually. People simply having differences does not even remotely point to any particular religion as truth. For the life of me, I don't see how anyone would even come up with such a silly notion.

 

Good lord C.  There are millions and millions and millions of people crying out to be known, to be loved.  John chapters, 15-17, talk about Christ knowing God, who is Love, and us then knowing Christ, so that then we might spread that knowing to others.  It is FAR from silly.  You sir, rather, are blind in your arrogance.

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2 minutes ago, end3 said:

Good lord C.  There are millions and millions and millions of people crying out to be known, to be loved.  John chapters, 15-17, talk about Christ knowing God, who is Love, and us then knowing Christ, so that then we might spread that knowing to others.  It is FAR from silly.  You sir, rather, are blind in your arrogance.

 

Good lord E. It's neither blindness nor arrogance to simply recognize that your argument holds no water whatsoever.

 

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9 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

Good lord E. It's neither blindness nor arrogance to simply recognize that your argument holds no water whatsoever.

 

If we were identical, we could legislate morality and everyone would be happy.  You do notice the state of affairs around the world and in the US, right?  The health care issue, the welfare issue, the immigration issue, the race issue.  When we sit down with these people, actually getting to know them, then we more understand their needs and position and them ours.  Really not my fault you can't make the association, but I'll pray...

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6 minutes ago, end3 said:

If we were identical, we could legislate morality and everyone would be happy.  You do notice the state of affairs around the world and in the US, right?  The health care issue, the welfare issue, the immigration issue, the race issue.  When we sit down with these people, actually getting to know them, then we more understand their needs and position and them ours.  Really not my fault you can't make the association, but I'll pray...

 

Nobody said that everybody is identical, but regardless, simply having differences between people is not one iota of proof for Christianity or any religion. Anyone who thinks it does prove a religion to be true doesn't have a clue how logic works. It's not my fault you can't see that.

 

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23 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

Nobody said that everybody is identical, but regardless, simply having differences between people is not one iota of proof for Christianity or any religion. Anyone who thinks it does prove a religion to be true doesn't have a clue how logic works. It's not my fault you can't see that.

 

Thinking the word I used was "points", not proves. 

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1 hour ago, Citsonga said:

 

Eh, no, that is nowhere near a checkmate. It's rather incoherent, actually. People simply having differences does not even remotely point to any particular religion as truth. For the life of me, I don't see how anyone would even come up with such a silly notion.

 

 

Standard christian obsession with Jebus plus ( insert any topic here) = therefore Jebus

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7 minutes ago, end3 said:

Thinking the word I used was "points", not proves. 

 

Semantics. You not only used the word "points," but have you forgotten that you also used the word "checkmate"? You were insinuating that it's somehow worthy evidence that clinches Christianity as truth. That is, in essence, a claim of proof, despite not using that exact word. However, you're wrong. It does not "point" toward Christianity at all. There's no real connection. The notion that "people are different, therefore Christianity" does not follow. There is no logic there at all. Your whole argument is completely incoherent. It's nonsense.

 

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