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SeaJay

Falsifying Evolution

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From here: www.quora.com/Is-evolutionary-theory-falsifiable

 

If Chimps and Bonobos shared the same bit of viral DNA and we did not, that would be no problem for the theory but if Gorillas and chimps carried the same viral DNA and we did not, this would be a serious problem for the theory.  Or, if humans and gorillas carried the viral DNA but chimps or bonobos or both did not, we would have the same problem.  There is evidence -somewhere and I cannot find the link or citation - for gorillas and orangutans that share the DNA of a specific virus that we humans do not have.  Further study (again, going from memory only) showed the viral DNA was on different chromosomes and although from the same type of virus were different segments (gorillas had section A of the viral DNA and orangutans has section G, while the shared ancestor DNA should be of the same section), implying that there were two separate viral DNA insertion events.

 

I don't understand it but this seems significant:

 

"...if Gorillas and chimps carried the same viral DNA and we did not, this would be a serious problem for the theory."

 

"There is evidence -somewhere and I cannot find the link or citation - for gorillas and orangutans that share the DNA of a specific virus that we humans do not have."

 

Which seems to imply that evolution has a "serious problem". 

 

Like I said, it's a little beyond my knowledge but does anyone know if there's any credibility to this claim?

 

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I'll provide a more complete answer later, but on first thought neither chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas or orangutans are direct ancestors of humans.  According to current empirical evidence and resulting evolutionary theory, all five have one or more common ancestors.  Accordingly, each species is not "required" to have all genes, including retro viruses in their respective germ cell DNA, which are present in the other species.  This is evolutionary genetics 101.  The creationist claim you uncovered simply suggests that the claimant does not understand basic evolutionary biology, among other issues, which is quite pathetic for a claimed science teacher.

 

Short version:  the claim is bunk.

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One does not have to be a biologist, archaeologist or expert in any of the sciences to see the overwhelming evidence for evolution.

 

Conversely, one must be deliberately obtuse to think that an invisible and undetectable magical entity created humans from dirt and a rib 6,000 years ago.

 

My suggestion, for your own peace of mind, is stop looking for a logical reason to believe that Old Time Religion. If you simply must believe anyway, it will be on emotional grounds, not an intellectual footing. The Bible, creationism and all the crazy tenets it's spawned have no basis in science or reality. Yet, many are driven to believe it anyway, so you must make a choice.

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19 hours ago, SeaJay said:

From here: www.quora.com/Is-evolutionary-theory-falsifiable

 

If Chimps and Bonobos shared the same bit of viral DNA and we did not, that would be no problem for the theory but if Gorillas and chimps carried the same viral DNA and we did not, this would be a serious problem for the theory.  Or, if humans and gorillas carried the viral DNA but chimps or bonobos or both did not, we would have the same problem.  There is evidence -somewhere and I cannot find the link or citation - for gorillas and orangutans that share the DNA of a specific virus that we humans do not have.  Further study (again, going from memory only) showed the viral DNA was on different chromosomes and although from the same type of virus were different segments (gorillas had section A of the viral DNA and orangutans has section G, while the shared ancestor DNA should be of the same section), implying that there were two separate viral DNA insertion events.

 

I don't understand it but this seems significant:

 

"...if Gorillas and chimps carried the same viral DNA and we did not, this would be a serious problem for the theory."

 

"There is evidence -somewhere and I cannot find the link or citation - for gorillas and orangutans that share the DNA of a specific virus that we humans do not have."

 

Which seems to imply that evolution has a "serious problem". 

 

Like I said, it's a little beyond my knowledge but does anyone know if there's any credibility to this claim?

 

 

Let's get Jesus' take on this. Jesus? What do you think of this article? Hello? Hello? Almighty One That Can Do Anything! Can you read me? Over?

 

Sorry, not getting anything.

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Falsifying evolution does not Truthify creation.

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11 minutes ago, midniterider said:

Falsifying evolution does not Truthify creation.

 

Falsification is actually necessary for it to be a valid theory. Theories that can't be falsified are unreliable on their face. For instance, what would falsify god? You can't do it. He is either invisible, living in another realm and can't be discovered, living somewhere out or reach, beyond our ability to reason, etc... Every challenge to his existence, even theoretical, will be counterchallenged. 

Evolution can be wrong if... But if ... holds up, the theory is once again confirmed. 

 

Big difference. 

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52 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

Falsification is actually necessary for it to be a valid theory.

Vigile, you mean "the possibility of falsification" or "falsifiability" or something like that, correct?

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5 minutes ago, ficino said:

Vigile, you mean "the possibility of falsification" or "falsifiability" or something like that, correct?

 

Yeah, sure. Falsifiability. I was probably assuming too much as I played fast and loose with the words. 

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@SeaJay, please know that I say this with the upmost respect and well wishes - but man, it seems to me like you are looking for reasons to go back to religion. Most every post I read is you having something you have read via a creationist/religious person, and whatever progress you made on trying to find peace is reset. 

 

You need to accept that it is perfectly acceptable to NOT have all the answers to life's little mysteries. I think you would find peace alot quicker, and in turn, maybe find a way to think a bit more deeply and find the absurd nature of these claims by the nutters.  As the others have said, there is a wealth of information supporting evolutionary claims. Look for that, instead of the opposite. Read, research, use your mind. You are an intelligent guy, so I know you can. 

 

Best wishes mate. 

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@SeaJay I agree with Travi my friend. We have had many conversations, and we understand your position. But I think you are going to have to learn with being comfortable with I DON'T KNOW. Because some things we don't know, and will most likely never know.

 

How exactly did life first start here:? We don't know exactly, and will never know the exact conditions. The best we can do is run tests that confirm that life would be possible under x, y and z conditions.

 

Same with many other mysteries. That does not mean you should insert a particular god into the hole. Just learn to say I don't know and be comfortable with it.

 

As far as falsifying evolution, that's highly unlikely. Evolution is a fact, we observe it. What could be falsified is the way (or mechanism) in which evolution gives rise to new species i.e. natural selection could be falsified. But evolution itself is a fact. Bananas, corn, dogs, lizards, moths etc are all observed examples of this (and there are many more). But all that means is that we have not yet discovered the mechanism by which evolution works. It by no stretch therefore means that god created everything.

 

By the way, you know in genesis it says god made man from the dust of the ground? Did you know there are older myths (Sumerian I believe) that tells the story of one of their gods forming humans from clay. At least the first 6 chapters of Genesis are altered stories of older cultures, we can trace this back. So much for the revealed word of god!

 

All the best

 

LF

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6 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

Falsification is actually necessary for it to be a valid theory. Theories that can't be falsified are unreliable on their face. For instance, what would falsify god? You can't do it. He is either invisible, living in another realm and can't be discovered, living somewhere out or reach, beyond our ability to reason, etc... Every challenge to his existence, even theoretical, will be counterchallenged. 

Evolution can be wrong if... But if ... holds up, the theory is once again confirmed. 

 

Big difference. 

 

If Evolution was ever abandoned by science, this does not mean Creation is the default, go-to replacement for it. It would just mean Evolution was deemed incorrect.

 

(That's all I meant) :)

 

 

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SeaJay, you sound like such a sensible intelligent guy, but one who is struggling a bit with what you believe and don't believe, as you indicated in a post earlier this month. You know, I was in this same boat for awhile for a couple months last winter, when I had read Richard Dawkins, and deep down, I knew his arguments had blown the bottom out of my faith, but emotionally, I still wanted to believe (probably because it was such a huge change and I was grieving leaving god behind), but couldn't. It might take you awhile to figure this one out, for some people it's a longer process, but I think @florduhmade the essential point, that if you want to believe it will be for emotional reasons, and as much as you might search for proof one way or the other, whether Christianity and the bible are true, you just wont find it. For those of us who have left, I think we have gained peace with the not knowing, and we don't have to know the truth. What we do know however is that we cannot anymore believe in a god of "love," who casts down such suffering and anguish on those he supposedly loves, and acts like a brutish, spoiled child. All I know is that I do not need evidence one way or the other.. For me, the essential question was whether or not I could accept that I and every other person in this world was born into this world as a sinner, requiring that God sacrifice a part of himself, to appease himself over my sins, when he had created me as an imperfect being in the first place and had the power to do otherwise. That I and all other humans were essentially trash, and that we deserved eternal punishment. Once I examined that doctrine in this light, I rejected it outright, and continue to do so, and all the evidence for evolution or anything else falls by the wayside as they are not the core issues at the heart of Christianity. I hope you can find some peace eventually, it may take awhile, but I don't recommend going out and seeking evidence as posted by all the nutters out there. That does nothing but play on the fear of hell, which is how Christianity finds and keeps people in it's chains.

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Thank you all very much for the feedback. I appreciate it as always

 

Interesting to read 'even if evolution is false that doesn't mean creationism is true'. Never thought of it that way. 

 

Just to clarify one thing, I'm not trying to stay in religion I am trying to destroy my faith because of my issues. The above Quora topic was sent to my email inbox because I have a subscription or something. The email wasn't just about religion but other things as well. 

 

So, the situation was that the headline caught my eye and interested me but not because I wanted to strengthen my faith but because I was now worrying that someone had falsified evolution. 

 

It is complicated but I hope you all understand that I am not trying to strengthen any faith I have. 

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2 hours ago, SeaJay said:

Thank you all very much for the feedback. I appreciate it as always

 

Interesting to read 'even if evolution is false that doesn't mean creationism is true'. Never thought of it that way. 

 

Just to clarify one thing, I'm not trying to stay in religion I am trying to destroy my faith because of my issues. The above Quora topic was sent to my email inbox because I have a subscription or something. The email wasn't just about religion but other things as well. 

 

So, the situation was that the headline caught my eye and interested me but not because I wanted to strengthen my faith but because I was now worrying that someone had falsified evolution. 

 

It is complicated but I hope you all understand that I am not trying to strengthen any faith I have. 

SeaJay, keep searching. I also had to go through everything that you are going through in order to completely convince myself that christianity wasn't true. I have to turn every stone before I give up on something. It's a hard road to travel for some of us. I don't let go easily. I need to be completely convinced.  The members on Ex-c helped me with all the questions I had. Keep posting my friend. At some point, you will become comfortable. Big (hug)

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36 minutes ago, Margee said:

SeaJay, keep searching. I also had to go through everything that you are going through in order to completely convince myself that christianity wasn't true. I have to turn every stone before I give up on something. It's a hard road to travel for some of us. I don't let go easily. I need to be completely convinced.  The members on Ex-c helped me with all the questions I had. Keep posting my friend. At some point, you will become comfortable. Big (hug)

Thank you Margee, I can completely relate

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It's important for any viable theory to be falsifiable. If there are testable ways you can disprove your theory, and yet it doesn't get disproven, then it only strengthens the theory. Evolution is certainly falsifiable, but it hasn't been proven false. I found this page recently that shows what it would take to disprove evolution: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Falsifiability_of_evolution

 

It also goes into what kinds of predictions evolution makes, which I think is worth a read.

 

I understand and probably relate to what SeaJay might be feeling with these supposed problems for evolution, especially coming from a Christian background where we used to think we already had all the answers, but it really is important to recognize that we don't. The article describes things like sexual selection as sloppy patchwork jobs to evolution, when it's just the "evolution" of the theory as we gain more knowledge. This is just how science--and life in general--works. One of the big problems with religion is that it doesn't evolve, and whenever it tries it just becomes a new religion and its members are labeled heretics.

 

I honestly didn't read the whole article because the author is a middle school science teacher... but eh, if he's on to something, I'm sure it'll spread--if not by scientists taking it sincerely, then by creationists looking for any and all ammunition to use against evolution. I personally don't see this virus thing being an issue, but I'm not to well-read on viruses. 

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On 9/29/2017 at 5:12 AM, SeaJay said:

Thank you all very much for the feedback. I appreciate it as always

 

Interesting to read 'even if evolution is false that doesn't mean creationism is true'. Never thought of it that way. 

 

Just to clarify one thing, I'm not trying to stay in religion I am trying to destroy my faith because of my issues. The above Quora topic was sent to my email inbox because I have a subscription or something. The email wasn't just about religion but other things as well. 

 

So, the situation was that the headline caught my eye and interested me but not because I wanted to strengthen my faith but because I was now worrying that someone had falsified evolution. 

 

It is complicated but I hope you all understand that I am not trying to strengthen any faith I have. 

 

Hey, SeaJay! I read through the other posts here and didn't see anything quite like my comment so hopefully what I have to say helps a little bit.

 

The "not knowing" bit as an agnostic/atheist is exactly the same as when we, as christians, would say we didn't know the mind of god. As a christian, someone who didn't believe would question me on god's morality, how he could send someone to help, how predestination worked with free will, how suffering worked with god's goodness and the list goes on and on. Heck, they were questions I asked myself most days. The answer, even then, was "I don't know." And I was completely comfortable with that. We, as humans, really do want to "know all the answers"....but sometimes there just isn't one. I know you've already given an explanation for how this question came about, I know you have a lot of questions in general! We all do. As someone who wasn't educated in evolution, I struggle to accept it and was interested to hear others on the board answer your question. But a great deal of peace washed over me the day I realized that someone else demanding the answers from you is every bit the same as you demanding answers from them. Ain't nobody know, we're all just winging it through this life!

 

It gives me a great deal of comfort to remember the OG scientists who believed that the earth was the center of the universe, or that maggots spontaneously formed from rotting meat and we now know what was happening, or that doing rain dances pleased the rain gods when we now know so much more about weather. Ironically, the bible tells us to lean not on our own understanding. Embrace it and just be filled with childlike wonder, it's ever so good for the soul. <3

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