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ChelseaGuy

Why do Christians hate the flesh so badly?

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Why does God/Christianity hate the flesh of our nature so badly? I have tried to look at it from a different perspective before, but those who believe our flesh isn't inherently filthy and etc. are a really small minority of Christians and most of those even are well considered "heretics" of the faith I guess. Why does God hate desire so much, even though he supposedly created man and woman himself to be "fruitful and multiply" in his own image. Of course, there's more, but that's one of the only things I want. I would love it if I died and entered a paradise where I can still have a partner and reproduce offspring for eternity, so why Adam/Eve, but not anyone else after him? I know, I'm flustered.

 

I have been struggling with my faith for the last 10 years. I think it's cruel and evil anyway, I wish Christians who I do know understood that I sincerely can't stand things anymore. I wish my paradise had me with a beautiful romantic partner, and I will actually be a driver and I'll drive a hot-looking manual transmission, for one. On the other side, I feel a hint of guilt for not being at peace with God. But, I sincerely get angry and doubt him sometimes. I do have an intellect of my own, but my heart still believes in the existence, even though I think he rigged the system with some of his design decisions. Anything to say here?

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That religion's Scriptures contain many references to the impurity, failure and paucity of biological processes, focused primarily on the homo sapiens species.  Those same Scriptures peddle a duality between biological reality and the wishful thinking woo woo of non-physical existence (e.g., soul, afterlife, sky fairies, etc.), obviously preferring the later over the former.  It is not surprising, therefore, that many indoctrinated Christians buy into the unsupported dogma and merely repeat it, like good sheep, in various flavors.

 

You seem infected with the Christian God Virus, although I'm not sure which strain or strains of that virus are involved.  However, it appears that you realize you are infected.  That's a good start.

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3 hours ago, ChelseaGuy said:

Why does God/Christianity hate the flesh of our nature so badly?

 

It's much better with bbq sauce.

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When I first came to exC, I got the impression that men and their penises were the root of all evil. I was so disgusted with the male preachers of my old church forever preaching about sin and repentance, if the only real sins were their wandering and lustful penises. That left us women--more than half the membership--off the hook, but they certainly never preached it that way. 

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Seems like I read somewhere that if you can control sex, you can control everything.  I think it had to do with abortion and women's reproductive rights, actually, but it made sense.  Other behaviors, such as what you eat or smoke or read or whatever, can be given up without a lot of pain, but sex?  That's a primal need almost everyone has.  If you can attach guilt and shame to it, you can control people, especially women, it seems.  Religion is, after all, a method of controlling a large group of people by a much smaller group of people.

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2 hours ago, R. S. Martin said:

When I first came to exC, I got the impression that men and their penises were the root of all evil. I was so disgusted with the male preachers of my old church forever preaching about sin and repentance, if the only real sins were their wandering and lustful penises. That left us women--more than half the membership--off the hook, but they certainly never preached it that way. 

 

This is just so spot on.

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2 hours ago, R. S. Martin said:

When I first came to exC, I got the impression that men and their penises were the root of all evil. I was so disgusted with the male preachers of my old church forever preaching about sin and repentance, if the only real sins were their wandering and lustful penises. That left us women--more than half the membership--off the hook, but they certainly never preached it that way. 

 

As a male I can relate. It seems at times the penis has a mind of its own & can get an unsuspecting guy into all sorts of trouble. I think boobs are the problem. They are just "out there" , you know what I mean? And if that isn't enough of a problem they tend to jiggle & bounce which invariably causes the penis to stand up & check out what's going on.

 

And to make matters even worse some ladies like to show some cleavage & that only makes the penis stand up even taller & then it starts talking to the brain, and that is when the trouble really starts. I think the penis is a victim myself. Woman tend to tease the penis & that irritates & confuses the penis. It doesn't know if it's suppose to come out and play or shrivel up & play dead. That confusion often results in shy penis syndrome....and that ain't good.:(

 

I'm actually glad at my age my penis doesn't get up & out much anymore.  :wacko:

 

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     The soul, in and of itself, is pure.  It has to be as it from god.  However, it is trapped within the flesh.  The soul then wants to do the right thing, what is good and godly, but being surrounded by the flesh it is tempted by the flesh to that which is in opposition to those good things.  The flesh is worldly and wants to do the things of the world.  It wants to indulge in all of the things of the world like eating, sex, violence and so on.  If the soul were free of this flesh it wouldn't be tempted by any of this.

 

     This is a common theme among the Greeks.  I think what I'm saying is covered in The Republic (and much better than I am phrasing it but I'm going from memory).  Paul also says roughly the same thing.  Xians hate the flesh no differently than other philosophies did.  They likely co-opted it from them.

 

          mwc

 

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Because denigrating people and reducing them to shame and guilt is a good foundation for exercising control.

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22 hours ago, Geezer said:

 

As a male I can relate. It seems at times the penis has a mind of its own & can get an unsuspecting guy into all sorts of trouble. I think boobs are the problem. They are just "out there" , you know what I mean? And if that isn't enough of a problem they tend to jiggle & bounce which invariably causes the penis to stand up & check out what's going on.

 

And to make matters even worse some ladies like to show some cleavage & that only makes the penis stand up even taller & then it starts talking to the brain, and that is when the trouble really starts. I think the penis is a victim myself. Woman tend to tease the penis & that irritates & confuses the penis. It doesn't know if it's suppose to come out and play or shrivel up & play dead. That confusion often results in shy penis syndrome....and that ain't good.:(

 

I'm actually glad at my age my penis doesn't get up & out much anymore.  :wacko:

 

 

Yes. And since I'd been seeking for decades for a definition of "sin" I felt incensed to find out that "sin" really meant this active little male member. But since human males came into existence a very long time ago, and all of them have a male parent, there really should be no "unsuspecting" guys. Those preachers diminish in my sight by the second.

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Which begs another question, why is the treatment of women so overrated when it comes to criticism of religious practice? Why do people think men never have any struggles or negative treatment, no matter where it is? If anything religions (especially Christianity), treat men no differently than women in these regards, if not actually worse.

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2 hours ago, ChelseaGuy said:

Which begs another question, why is the treatment of women so overrated when it comes to criticism of religious practice? Why do people think men never have any struggles or negative treatment, no matter where it is? If anything religions (especially Christianity), treat men no differently than women in these regards, if not actually worse.

 

I have often wondered that as well.  Men are spoken of, in general, as being nothing but walking/talking penises with no ability to control themselves.  They are expected to be strong, capable, qualified leaders of their families even if that does not fit their personalities or abilities.  They are expected to look down on and patronize their wives even if they have great respect for and admiration of their wives and know that their wives may actually be better at a lot of things than they are.  They are burdened with being the sole breadwinner of the family while at the same time expected to continue to produce more and more children that become more and more difficult to feed as that sole income has to stretch to feed more bellies.  They are even discouraged in some ways from being too hands on with the childrearing because that is the woman's job.  

 

I agree that it is just as detrimental to the men as it is to the women.  It just looks better on the surface to be the man than to be the woman.

 

ETA:  Reminds me of a family of devout believers I know.  He is a police officer and they have 11 kids.  Besides being a police officer, which includes plenty of overtime, he also works two other jobs to make ends meet.  I have often wondered how much face time he gets with any of those 11 kids.  And family is supposed to be the most important thing in the world to Christians!

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12 hours ago, R. S. Martin said:

 

Yes. And since I'd been seeking for decades for a definition of "sin" I felt incensed to find out that "sin" really meant this active little male member. But since human males came into existence a very long time ago, and all of them have a male parent, there really should be no "unsuspecting" guys. Those preachers diminish in my sight by the second.

 

The Apostle Paul definitely had penis issues. Paul is the source of a lot of sex, gender, & sin issues. I think Paul had a lot of unresolved issues. 

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10 hours ago, Daffodil said:

 

I have often wondered that as well.  Men are spoken of, in general, as being nothing but walking/talking penises with no ability to control themselves.  They are expected to be strong, capable, qualified leaders of their families even if that does not fit their personalities or abilities.  They are expected to look down on and patronize their wives even if they have great respect for and admiration of their wives and know that their wives may actually be better at a lot of things than they are.  They are burdened with being the sole breadwinner of the family while at the same time expected to continue to produce more and more children that become more and more difficult to feed as that sole income has to stretch to feed more bellies.  They are even discouraged in some ways from being too hands on with the childrearing because that is the woman's job.  

 

I agree that it is just as detrimental to the men as it is to the women.  It just looks better on the surface to be the man than to be the woman.

 

ETA:  Reminds me of a family of devout believers I know.  He is a police officer and they have 11 kids.  Besides being a police officer, which includes plenty of overtime, he also works two other jobs to make ends meet.  I have often wondered how much face time he gets with any of those 11 kids.  And family is supposed to be the most important thing in the world to Christians!

 

Most of you won't remember Groucho Marx a popular comedian back in the 50's. He had a TV show where ordinary people would come on & win money if they could correctly answer some questions. A woman came on that had 12 children. Groucho asked why she had 12 Children. She replied, "Because I love my husband." Groucho replied, "Well, I love my cigar, but I take it out once in awhile!"

This was live TV so they couldn't edit that out. 

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1 hour ago, Geezer said:

 

Most of you won't remember Groucho Marks a popular comedian back in the 50's. He had a TV show where ordinary people would come on & win money if they could correctly answer some questions. A woman came on that had 12 children. Groucho asked why she had 12 Children. She replied, "Because I love my husband." Groucho replied, "Well, I love my cigar, but I take it out once in awhile!"

This was live TV so they couldn't edit that out. 

 

That's hilarious. I did a quick search and found this video with an audio clip of that incident (the exchange happened with the husband rather than the wife, but it's funny nonetheless):

 

 

 

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Thanks Citsonga for looking that up. My parents loved that show & they were watching the show when this happened. I was a kid & didn't have a clue why everyone thought his remark was so funny. It's interesting how our memories betray us. I would have bet money it was the wife that was on the show. 

 

 

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It's a key factor in the formula that makes the religion work. Label something a sin. Offer a solution to the consequences of committing the sin. 

 

If that were it, the religion would die on the vine. But if you label an innate, biological need a sin, then your follower will struggle with it on a daily basis and be in constant need of the anecdote. This keeps people on a hamster wheel and dependent. 

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10 hours ago, Vigile said:

It's a key factor in the formula that makes the religion work. Label something a sin. Offer a solution to the consequences of committing the sin. 

 

If that were it, the religion would die on the vine. But if you label an innate, biological need a sin, then your follower will struggle with it on a daily basis and be in constant need of the anecdote. This keeps people on a hamster wheel and dependent. 

 

Some really smart people came up with this religion's survival strategy.

 

 

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Some really smart people came up with this religion's survival strategy.

 

 

 

Either that, or this was the part of the religion that survived and bubbled up to the surface via an evolutionary process over the ages. Remember, it wasn't the first religion in the rodeo, so this process may have started long before xianity. 

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10 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

Either that, or this was the part of the religion that survived and bubbled up to the surface via an evolutionary process over the ages. Remember, it wasn't the first religion in the rodeo, so this process may have started long before xianity. 

 

Yes. Survival of the fittest ideas makes more sense. Life consists mostly of trial and error.

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On 10/5/2017 at 5:14 PM, ChelseaGuy said:

Why does God/Christianity hate the flesh of our nature so badly? I have tried to look at it from a different perspective before, but those who believe our flesh isn't inherently filthy and etc. are a really small minority of Christians and most of those even are well considered "heretics" of the faith I guess. Why does God hate desire so much, even though he supposedly created man and woman himself to be "fruitful and multiply" in his own image. Of course, there's more, but that's one of the only things I want. I would love it if I died and entered a paradise where I can still have a partner and reproduce offspring for eternity, so why Adam/Eve, but not anyone else after him? I know, I'm flustered.

 

I have been struggling with my faith for the last 10 years. I think it's cruel and evil anyway, I wish Christians who I do know understood that I sincerely can't stand things anymore. I wish my paradise had me with a beautiful romantic partner, and I will actually be a driver and I'll drive a hot-looking manual transmission, for one. On the other side, I feel a hint of guilt for not being at peace with God. But, I sincerely get angry and doubt him sometimes. I do have an intellect of my own, but my heart still believes in the existence, even though I think he rigged the system with some of his design decisions. Anything to say here?

It's the nature of tribal societies. Hebrew tribes said menstruating women were unclean, for example--it carries down to this day.

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On 10/8/2017 at 9:59 AM, Geezer said:

Thanks Citsonga for looking that up. My parents loved that show & they were watching the show when this happened. I was a kid & didn't have a clue why everyone thought his remark was so funny. It's interesting how our memories betray us. I would have bet money it was the wife that was on the show.

 

Whenever I've heard someone retell this joke it was the wife. I would have sworn it was the wife until I heard that clip just now. Perhaps the scenario sounds more scandalous if he's making the comment to a woman so everyone is just retelling it that way.  Or else... Mandela effect?

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On 10/5/2017 at 6:14 PM, ChelseaGuy said:

Why does God/Christianity hate the flesh of our nature so badly? I have tried to look at it from a different perspective before, but those who believe our flesh isn't inherently filthy and etc. are a really small minority of Christians and most of those even are well considered "heretics" of the faith I guess. Why does God hate desire so much, even though he supposedly created man and woman himself to be "fruitful and multiply" in his own image. Of course, there's more, but that's one of the only things I want. I would love it if I died and entered a paradise where I can still have a partner and reproduce offspring for eternity, so why Adam/Eve, but not anyone else after him? I know, I'm flustered.

 

I have been struggling with my faith for the last 10 years. I think it's cruel and evil anyway, I wish Christians who I do know understood that I sincerely can't stand things anymore. I wish my paradise had me with a beautiful romantic partner, and I will actually be a driver and I'll drive a hot-looking manual transmission, for one. On the other side, I feel a hint of guilt for not being at peace with God. But, I sincerely get angry and doubt him sometimes. I do have an intellect of my own, but my heart still believes in the existence, even though I think he rigged the system with some of his design decisions. Anything to say here?

Honestly God seems extremely selfish to condemn people for having a desire.  If it were your children you would most likely not condemn them for wanting something so then why does God?

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8 hours ago, ToddJ said:

Honestly God seems extremely selfish to condemn people for having a desire.  If it were your children you would most likely not condemn them for wanting something so then why does God?

 

You are trying to make sense out of it. Religion is a way to provide an "explanation" of why things happen when you don't know; a way to try and curry the favor of an invisible friend who can bend the odds in your favor; and a means for people in power to control those who are not in power. Why would a good god set up his children for failure in the garden? Why create a magic fruit tree in the first place? Why not plant it in a different galaxy? Why leave them alone with a talking snake when you know what will happen? Why desire the blood of animals?

There is no sense to it, just people trying to bend the odds in their favor when they don't understand physics, sanitation, meteorology, or other aspects of science that would help them understand the world and their own drives and minds.

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