MOTB from Government or Man

[Kushne]

Just curious.  Is the Mark of the Beast supposed to come about from a man or a government--here are two scenarios:

 

The one-world government  (or the whole world comes together at least) is considered the beast and they issue out a mark that all citizens must have to buy and sell.  (No single dictator or antichrist in sight) But, the citizens have to obey or worship the government.

or

The governments all come together under a world dictator who requires everyone to have his mark in order to buy and sell.

 

I have always interpreted Revelation to show that the beast is a dictator who requires worship and then requires a mark to show loyalty-- like the Emperors of the olden days.  Some claim that the government is the beast however.  So is it a man or a government?

 

I already know some of you will say--who cares and why are you still worrying about this.   I am just curious what people were taught and what interpretation is the most likely one.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[buffettphan]

I was taught that it was about Nero.   That's about the only good thing about being raised catholic  --  the non-literal interpretation of the buybull.  (Not that the wacko-frenzied Book of Revelation could ever be interpreted literally!   It reads like a bad drug experience.    )

[LogicalFallacy]

Every denomination has their particular interpretation.

 

Some think the antichrist who will bring the mark is the Pope, and the sign of the mark in the forehead is accepting catholic teaching.

 

Others think the "beast" in revelations is a superpower (for example the United States) that performs wonders (Causes fire to fall from the sky - so if you check out daisy cutter bombs you'll get the interpretation)

 

Others think its the US with its world controlling power (They seem to have difficulties with North Korea at the moment)

 

All this shows that Revelations is so vague and so much an acid trip that it can be anything you want.

[Joshpantera]

Both numbers of the beast found in manuscripts, both 666 and the older 616 version, simply point to Nero Caesar through their respective alphabets: 

 

 

When people approach this they have to bear in mind that there's two numbers, and both numbers literally point to Nero.  That's what any other attempt at interpreting is lacking, especially as concerns the fundie varieties. 

[Joshpantera]

4 hours ago, Kushne said:

Just curious.  Is the Mark of the Beast supposed to come about from a man or a government--here are two scenarios:

 

The one-world government  (or the whole world comes together at least) is considered the beast and they issue out a mark that all citizens must have to buy and sell.  (No single dictator or antichrist in sight) But, the citizens have to obey or worship the government.

or

The governments all come together under a world dictator who requires everyone to have his mark in order to buy and sell.

 

I have always interpreted Revelation to show that the beast is a dictator who requires worship and then requires a mark to show loyalty-- like the Emperors of the olden days.  Some claim that the government is the beast however.  So is it a man or a government?

 

I already know some of you will say--who cares and why are you still worrying about this.   I am just curious what people were taught and what interpretation is the most likely one.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Since it clearly was referring to a world leader during the time period when the book was written, nearly 2,000 years ago, the entire one world government, future pope, American President, Illuminati, some eastern guru, and what ever situation that doesn't take into account the reference as ancient and long gone now, fails in that way. 

 

It's not about the future, it's an account of the distant past. 

[LogicalFallacy]

45 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Since it clearly was referring to a world leader during the time period when the book was written, nearly 2,000 years ago, the entire one world government, future pope, American President, Illuminati, some eastern guru, and what ever situation that doesn't take into account the reference as ancient and long gone now, fails in that way. 

 

It's not about the future, it's an account of the distant past. 

 

In my answer I completely forgot to mention what I actually think it refers to... Josh has kindly corrected that mistake. Thanks.

[sdelsolray]

6 hours ago, Kushne said:

Just curious.  Is the Mark of the Beast supposed to come about from a man or a government--here are two scenarios:

 

The one-world government  (or the whole world comes together at least) is considered the beast and they issue out a mark that all citizens must have to buy and sell.  (No single dictator or antichrist in sight) But, the citizens have to obey or worship the government.

or

The governments all come together under a world dictator who requires everyone to have his mark in order to buy and sell.

...

Are these the only two choices?  If so, why?  Can you think of other possible interpretations?

 

...

So is it a man or a government?

...

Same questions.

[mwc]

     What I was taught and what interpretation is most likely are two different things.

 

     I was taught that the "beast" was most likely going to be some form of one-world government led by Satan (incarnate? They weren't sure on this point).

 

     The interpretation that is most likely is that it is, was, Nero (I've seen a good argument for Gaius/Caligula with later redactions for Nero but either way Nero is likely).

 

          mwc

 

[Joshpantera]

An interesting study would be to analyze how a reference to Nero, working out the same in two biblical languages by way of both variants of the number of the beast in scripture - both 616 and 666 - must have been known and understood at the time, but then fell out of understanding in some way until people stopped understanding who the reference was about and started thinking it was referring to someone yet to come, rather than someone long since dead? And how that carrot-on-a-stick future mark of the beast interpretation carried on for 2,000 years, obviously never applying to anyone in any contemporary period except the contemporary period in which Revelation was written. And how flaccid it is for christians to still keep trying to suggest that the mark of the beast is something yet to come, rather than ancient history by now....

[mwc]

On 10/14/2017 at 10:05 PM, Joshpantera said:

An interesting study would be to analyze how a reference to Nero, working out the same in two biblical languages by way of both variants of the number of the beast in scripture - both 616 and 666 - must have been known and understood at the time, but then fell out of understanding in some way until people stopped understanding who the reference was about and started thinking it was referring to someone yet to come, rather than someone long since dead? And how that carrot-on-a-stick future mark of the beast interpretation carried on for 2,000 years, obviously never applying to anyone in any contemporary period except the contemporary period in which Revelation was written. And how flaccid it is for christians to still keep trying to suggest that the mark of the beast is something yet to come, rather than ancient history by now....

     My best guess as to answer such as this is that the text was used by a certain group (or set of groups) and they probably didn't refer to Nero by name (or only did so in certain circumstances).  Over time the meaning of number was lost since new initiates were never made privy to this information and other groups gained access to the text who never had access to this information to begin with.  Essentially the information, the connection between the name and number, simply "faded away" over time.  There would also be no need to remember the connection for very long once Nero was dead, didn't return (even those shown to be fakes) and the end didn't come either.  Especially once a new line of emperors is introduced with Vespasian.  Perhaps Nero will return in some form but then you are looking to a new meaning and a new interpretation at this stage which opens the door to pretty much anything.

 

     I know this seems like a very linear timeline but I imagine that there were, like most of these things, any number of groups, that were doing some, or all, of these things in parallel at any given time which makes it fairly hazy.

 

          mwc

 

[Joshpantera]

On 10/16/2017 at 11:36 AM, mwc said:

     My best guess as to answer such as this is that the text was used by a certain group (or set of groups) and they probably didn't refer to Nero by name (or only did so in certain circumstances).  Over time the meaning of number was lost since new initiates were never made privy to this information and other groups gained access to the text who never had access to this information to begin with.  Essentially the information, the connection between the name and number, simply "faded away" over time.  There would also be no need to remember the connection for very long once Nero was dead, didn't return (even those shown to be fakes) and the end didn't come either.  Especially once a new line of emperors is introduced with Vespasian.  Perhaps Nero will return in some form but then you are looking to a new meaning and a new interpretation at this stage which opens the door to pretty much anything.

 

     I know this seems like a very linear timeline but I imagine that there were, like most of these things, any number of groups, that were doing some, or all, of these things in parallel at any given time which makes it fairly hazy.

 

          mwc

 

 

It must have been something like that.