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Christians excuses and arguments for free will are weak and logically inconsistent. They pray for some kind of interaction from him that in fact, influences their real world in a positive way. This somehow doesn't affect free will but a God not being an asshole and actually playing an active role in saving people from some sketchy shit, affects free will.

 

As others have pointed out, he does in fact influence the free will of others in the bible. No question. The irony is he also says (or the bible does) he favors no one. 

 

The craziest part is that our free will will be influenced either way. We set the standards as to what's convincing - not him. My rules are clear. God needed to act in a manner that convinced me he was real. The bible couldn't do that and he couldn't do that. My free will was influenced by his silence (the core issue being his non-existence). 

 

So both action and inaction affect free will. There's zero possibility for it to be this pure aspect of existence that isn't tampered with. Everything tampers with it. That's why it's a myth (at least in the Christian sense).

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Good point. I wonder why Christians say that god doesn't reveal himself in an obvious manner in order to honor free will but they also tell stories of people who've seen visions of god and whatnot. Why is okay to violate some people's free wills but not others. How many of us have prayed for signs and got nothing?

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18 minutes ago, megasamurai said:

Good point. I wonder why Christians say that god doesn't reveal himself in an obvious manner in order to honor free will but they also tell stories of people who've seen visions of god and whatnot. Why is okay to violate some people's free wills but not others. How many of us have prayed for signs and got nothing?

Because they're logically inconsistent. They don't apply the same standards across the board. It's a byproduct of the dogma.... Well, that and confirmation bias. 

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On 11/2/2017 at 10:49 AM, megasamurai said:

The idea I'm trying to get at is that "free will" supposedly justifies all non-intervention and the idea not intervening is to avoid violating free will. Wouldn't telaporting the Columbine victims before the shooter appeared by a free will violation according to the Christian excuse that saving people violates the free will of the shooter? It's a flawed argument, but that's how Christians justify non-intervention when people do bad things.

     Oh.  I think I see what you're saying now.

 

     Okay.  Confusing "free will" with "making shit up."  Yeah.  That's a real problem with xian apologetics.  Free will works this or that way unless it doesn't because...[and this is the part where shit is made up].  You know something like "If god appears to everyone they will simply have knowledge of god, as opposed to belief in god, and that will mean they won't have free will to make decisions anymore."  Hello?  Adam and Eve?  The xian origin story of Satan?  All the people in the OT who supposedly met god (like Abraham, Moses, etc.)?  They met god and free willingly fucked up by choosing shit god didn't like.  Apparently meeting god in person isn't the big deal we're supposed to think it is.  And it sure doesn't mess up our ability to choose.

 

     There's also the idea of if this happened god would become like some sort of Sky Santa or Sky Vending Machine.  We'd just become so reliant on him we'd just have no real free will.  But let us just check those scriptures again and we'll see that all those folks I just mentioned also didn't do that.  Didn't cause them to just rely on god once he gave a meeting and/or a miracle.  Apparently, that doesn't happen either.  The only time I can think people did become dependent is when god put them out in the desert and gave them manna since there was no food (they complained of being led out to starve so manna was given and they were told to hang onto some as evidence of the wonderful thing he had done for them).

 

     God giving out miracles or appearing to people in person just doesn't seem to screw up the whole free will thing or make us dependents.  At least not based on the stories that should serve as evidence for such things.  The same stories that people use to say god likes belief and all that jazz.

 

          mwc

 

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Yes. There is also the idea that non-Christians are consciously choosing to go to hell by not believing, but I doubt that Nirvana, reincarnation, Muslim heaven, etc are really the same thing as hell. Couldn't a simple survey disprove this idea? Also, if non-believers are really given unambiguous evidence of god's existence and they are all believe in god, I find the idea that they are just pretending to believe in their gods to spite the real god a little wacky. Why rebel against the Christian god by following an even stricter faith? Christians portray members of other religions are rebellious heavens while also stating that their religion is more strict and oppressive than the one true religion. Contradiction?  

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  • 1 month later...

This is an issue that has bothered me. So I researched the apologetics and heard various opinions and explanations, from which I have curated my own understanding.  The following is where I am at the moment. Who knows where I will be in 1 month or 1 year?

 

God wants people who really want and chose to be with him. God does not want robots, that is why he gave us free will. 

 

Hell is reserved for Satan and the other fallen angels who followed Satan.   The humans who don't want to be with God will not go to hell. They will be dead, forever. That is the opposite of eternal life which the God followers will have in heaven. 

 

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On 12/4/2017 at 11:49 PM, FoolNoMore said:

This is an issue that has bothered me. So I researched the apologetics and heard various opinions and explanations, from which I have curated my own understanding.  The following is where I am at the moment. Who knows where I will be in 1 month or 1 year?

 

God wants people who really want and chose to be with him. God does not want robots, that is why he gave us free will. 

 

Hell is reserved for Satan and the other fallen angels who followed Satan.   The humans who don't want to be with God will not go to hell. They will be dead, forever. That is the opposite of eternal life which the God followers will have in heaven. 

 

 

Yes, the italicized sentences above are fairly common Christian Apologetics promoted by some Christian sects.  Does your "understanding" mean you recognize this without believing the content, that you actually believe these sentences or something else?

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On 10/24/2017 at 11:00 PM, megasamurai said:

I notice that free will is made a huge deal by Christians even though the Bible never uses the phrase "free will."  Supposedly, free will is why god refuses to help the helpless. Teleporting people out of the World Trade Center during 9/11 would have violated free will? I was just pondering, if I were a superhero with mind-control powers and somebody was about to use a doomsday weapon, according to the Christian, it would be more moral to let him fire the weapon than to violate his free will. Supposedly, only full free will is possible. God can't make it where we can't choose to harm people but can choose what color shirt to wear. We either have full free will or none at all. An omnipotent god can't or won't create anything in between. Also, because of free will, god is obligated to send people to hell if they want to go there, and hell is total agony. My mom thought that it was monstrous of me that I would send people to heaven against their will if I were god. I would prefer free will be violated than people weep or mash their teeth. Of course, I doubt that people would really choose hell forever if it were weeping and gnashing of teeth because people are separated from love for all eternity and unable to feel love (because god is love is a literal rather than figurative statement) and would at worst, prefer erasure from existence. Free will is supposed to be paramount, but god can't honor people's free will to be annihilated because?

 

The Christian god as a fictional character has a code of morality I don't understand. Supposedly, every Christian would send sinners to hell if they were in his position, but I couldn't do it no matter how much someone begged to be sent to hell. I have very good reason to believe that god isn't love because loving people often violate free will. Is giving a child vaccinations against their will violating free will and thus against Christian morality. In this case, we put well being above free will because we love, not in spite of love. Humans respect free will to a degree, but when someone you love's well being is at stake, that is usually where we draw the line at free will. There's a gray area between turning people into robots and not stopping people from harming themselves. Most friends would intervene if a friend commits self harm, but wouldn't turn that person into a slave. WIth god, there is no gray area when it comes to free will. Am I the only person who'd feel uncomfortable with sending people to hell? I know that god, hell, and the like are hooey concepts, but I just find the concept of a loving god who sends people to weeping and gnashing of teeth because they choose to go there revolting. Of course, I don't believe that any non-believer really thinks "gee, I want to go to hell," but Christians say that's what we all think. 

The Christian God is the most callous evil being imaginable in my opinion.  He loves Jacob and hates Esau for no reason whatsoever and admits it in the Bible.  My qualm isn't that he should be teleporting people or we should live in a perfect world.  I just hate his attitude.  He's like the spoiled conceited communist bastard from hell who just takes and never gives and expects society to pick up the tab, except the tab isn't a welfare check its the entire planet.  The world can't be perfect, but Jesus would create the worst of all possible worlds for most people.

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On 12/4/2017 at 11:49 PM, FoolNoMore said:

This is an issue that has bothered me. So I researched the apologetics and heard various opinions and explanations, from which I have curated my own understanding.  The following is where I am at the moment. Who knows where I will be in 1 month or 1 year?

 

God wants people who really want and chose to be with him. God does not want robots, that is why he gave us free will. 

 

Hell is reserved for Satan and the other fallen angels who followed Satan.   The humans who don't want to be with God will not go to hell. They will be dead, forever. That is the opposite of eternal life which the God followers will have in heaven. 

 

     I don't want to be with god.

 

     I don't want to be with satan.

 

     I want to be [third option], [fourth option], etc..

 

     That's my free will choice.

 

     God, assuming this god is all super being we're told he is, could easily setup an infinite option buffet but he created a two item menu since all items, except one, anger him to no end.

 

     And once everyone is placed into eternal torture what happens then?  The people who go to heaven are all magically "purified."  How?  Some sort of jesus mask.  We're not sure.  But everyone else is still, and forever, icky to god.  And no amount of torture changes this.  So god is angry forever.  For all eternity he will stew over these people all while they're being tortured.  We imagine that the fact they're being tortured makes up for things but it can't because it's eternal.  There is no amount of torture over any amount of time that can ever balance the scales of justice.  But I've gotten on a  bit of tangent here.

 

     We don't need a god or a satan.  We can get by just fine without these things.  We can use our free will to choose the other, better, options.

 

          mwc

 

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On 12/7/2017 at 8:41 AM, sdelsolray said:

 

Yes, the italicized sentences above are fairly common Christian Apologetics promoted by some Christian sects.  Does your "understanding" mean you recognize this without believing the content, that you actually believe these sentences or something else?

My "understanding" means that it makes sense to me from a religious theoretical point of view and seems to answer the question. 

 

Have I fully accepted it? No. I have not fully accepted Christianity nor have I fully rejected it. I am honouring and exploring my doubts from both sides. I am taking it day by day. 

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20 minutes ago, FoolNoMore said:

I have not fully accepted Christianity nor have I fully rejected it. I am honouring and exploring my doubts from both sides. I am taking it day by day. 

 

That's the best approach. Good luck with where it leads you.

 

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1 hour ago, FoolNoMore said:

My "understanding" means that it makes sense to me from a religious theoretical point of view and seems to answer the question. 

 

Have I fully accepted it? No. I have not fully accepted Christianity nor have I fully rejected it. I am honouring and exploring my doubts from both sides. I am taking it day by day. 

 

Your internal honesty will help you get far.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There's some food for thought. If a Hindu wants to be reincarnated and gets sent to hell, how is his free will honored? Doesn't this prove that god does violate free will? Why is violating this free will okay? 

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On 12/19/2017 at 5:50 PM, megasamurai said:

There's some food for thought. If a Hindu wants to be reincarnated and gets sent to hell, how is his free will honored? Doesn't this prove that god does violate free will? Why is violating this free will okay? 

     It's all about perspective.  Remember that the god you're talking about is the Judeo-Christian god so you have to use that perspective.  In that sense that god says to use your free will to make an informed decision between following it or not following it.  You get to use your free will for that binary decision.  You don't get to choose your own custom destiny.  So choosing reincarnation is choosing to not follow god and therefore choosing hell since reincarnation is not an option.

 

     Free will doesn't allow us to create options that don't exist.  I can't use free will to instantly teleport myself.  I can't use free will to have food options that aren't on the menu or in my pantry.  I can't use free will to see movies that aren't playing in the theater.  I am limited to those options that are available but I may choose freely among them.  And in some of these things, like seeing a movie or getting dinner at a restaurant, I must also meet additional conditions, such as buying a ticket or meeting a minimum age for purchase, in order to actually get my free will choice.

 

     So if reincarnation isn't an option, and it's not according to the Judeo-Christian god, then choosing it simply is not an option no matter how badly you might want it.  And worse yet, the default option according to this religion is punishment.  So if you don't choose to follow their god in the proper fashion then you default to hell no matter what option you've freely chosen.

 

     The caveat here is this concept of a default option.  I may never go to the theater to see a movie and there's no default option.  I can choose to see a movie but if I don't choose to see a movie I don't have a choice forced on me like a different movie or having to do a different activity.  This places belief on the same level as something like eating as opposed to going to restaurants.  With a restaurant I can choose never to go and nothing happens either way just like with the movie example.  But with food in general I can choose not to eat but the default option is starvation and death.  This is something different.  This starts to enter into the realm of predestination.  I am predestined to die by starvation unless I choose to eat.

 

          mwc

 

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On 12/19/2017 at 5:50 PM, megasamurai said:

There's some food for thought. If a Hindu wants to be reincarnated and gets sent to hell, how is his free will honored? Doesn't this prove that god does violate free will? Why is violating this free will okay? 

That's a good question

 

I think free will means we are not forced to do good while we are in this body. . Free will does not mean we get to choose our destiny but we get to choose our actions within the framework of our destiny.  Am I making any sense to you? 

 

Also, in the matter of sending believers of other religions to hell, even when I had my feet firmly into Christianity, I never believed that God would send good people to hell just because they didn't acknowledge jesus christ. I thought then and as I think now that ultimately, jesus Christ represents a principle and a way of life, and this is something believer of any faith can follow though they may call it something else. I have seen too many so called christians do evil deeds while being self-righteous and smug that they have a ticket to heaven due to being "saved" and acknowledging jesus christ.  They forget that the same bible they worship also says that 

Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.  Revelation 2:23

God "will repay each person according to what they have done." Roman 2:6

 

 

 

 

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