Isn't it Sad that People Deconvert and then Relapse?

[MOHO]

 

@Deva

 

Apologies for altering the course of your original post.

[Deva]

3 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

@Deva

 

Apologies for altering the course of your original post.

Its OK. I don't want to discuss the original subject.But,  I think the general topic of relapse is certainly worthwhile.  I am just concerned for this person, whom several of you know.   I can certainly understand the pull of the religion if you are raised with it, or were in it for a number of years.  I have had more than one relapse myself, due to having been raised in fundamentalism.  It has nothing to do with reason or logic.  I am well acquainted with all the reasons Christianity is bogus. I had to work it out over about 5 decades, longer than many people have been alive.  I tried church again twice, and Buddhism once. I just cannot belong to any organized religious group without a feeling of oppression. It does not make me happy to be in a church or religious group and that's the bottom line.  I was forced to attend church growing up, and although it would be a lie to say I didn't like some of it at the time, the fact that I had no decision whatsoever in the matter has always gnawed at me.  There were  terrible scenes in my teenage years, when my older brother (RIP) used to refuse to go. My mother crying, yelling by my father, etc.  I could not see putting up my own rebellion after witnessing the consequences.  Now, of course, its still not over with, my elderly mother is writing me letters about wanted to see me in heaven, etc...

[florduh]

Bear in mind that many renounce Christianity simply because they have a beef with a pastor, congregation or the bad behavior of some of their fellow Christians. Those who study the Bible, church history, science and ancient history are the ones who eventually see behind the curtain, and they can't just decide to believe something they have proven to be false. WHY you leave has much to do with if you can ever go back.

[Lilith666]

4 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

OK.

There you have it in a nutshell.

No further comment is necessary.

 

I will though.

Not only does Mrs. MOHO (bear with me) pass out tracts - many of which are directed at children, but there is a woman at Mrs. MOHO's church who uses puppets to dupe the little ones. A few weeks ago she entered the sanctuary during worship ( I was watching through the window of one of the doors) with a monkey of some sort (puppet) designed to hang on to it's operator. This thing was seriously cute and looked real enough for the young ones. 

 

Anyway she proceeded to show how (insert cute puppet name here) LOVED church and jesus and the bible and that THEY SHOULD TOO! All of this was done using a wireless mic and sound effects. I was absolutely flabbergasted! I could only ponder the depths one must sink in order to fuck with the little minds like this.

 

I am a strong proponent of free speech but this should be illegal. It's not legal to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater and it should not be legal to fuck with little minds.

I was raised in the Church and recall being manipulated, one incident being in VBS. The children attending played games, made crafts, listened to Bible stories, and were given snacks and prizes. At the end of every VBS night, I believe, the adult leader asked them if they would like to accept Jesus. In any other organization, this would be considered highly unethical. Would little kids really say no to an adult authority figure to whom their parents had entrusted them, who was supposed to look out for them, who had just played with them and given them goodies, and whom they obviously would not want to disappoint? And they aren't just asked to say a prayer, but to dedicate their lives to the Church following that prayer. 

 

It's predatory, MOHO. Christians who do this will insist they are looking out for the kids by trying to save their souls. But these same people are willing to believe that others, including children who have reached the "age of accountability" that could be anywhere from adolescence to four years old, are going to burn in hell for rejecting Jesus, if it means the Christians themselves don't have to face death. They are sacrificing other people's minds and lives while telling them it's love. It's evil.

[Margee]

20 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

@Deva

 

Apologies for altering the course of your original post.

 

I may sorta do this also..... but I do think it ties in with how strong the brainwashing can be with christiaity.

 

I returned over and over to church quite a few times before I found Ex-c.

It is evil. I take responsibility for my whole life today but as I look back, christianity played a huge part in some of my worst failures. I just cannot go back. It poisoned my whole life.

 

I have never told 100% of my story on this board because I am so ashamed of my past. For 7 years on this board, I've broken up my story hoping no one would put the whole mess together because I am embarrassed by my story. 

 

I got married for the first time when I was 19 years old. That marriage lasted for 17 years. I got 'saved' at  20 and very slowly over time, the problems began in this once beautiful relationship. I went real easy on my husband for years (no preaching) because the pastor told me that if I prayed hard enough and was the perfect 'godly' wife, the lord would eventually bring him into the fold. For years, I went alone to church. Single men asked me out because they did not ever see me with a boyfriend or husband. When I would show them my wedding ring, they would get so embarrassed.

 

I wanted to go to church with my husband. But he would not go. I was ''unequally yoked'' according to my Pentecostal church. Once, my young husband barred the door and begged me not to go. He told me that they had me brainwashed. He hated the church I was going to. I thought my husband was turning into the devil. I started to look at every negative thing that I didn't like about him and began distancing myself from our marriage. (and he was the most wonderful man in the world)  Soon, I left that marriage. I had to. I didn't see anything happening to him that he would be my 'partner in christ'. And I wanted a partner in christ.  I have to live with this regret till the day I die. I was so young and naive back then and it grieves my heart to this very day.

 

 I wanted a 'godly' man. And that is another rotten story for another time.....

 

Christianity helped me make many bad choices. All trying to please a god that was never there. Do I still have anger at this? You bet your bottom dollar I do. I have had to grieve so many things while I was on this board in the last few years. Sometimes as I talk about all of this, the depression that has me weighed down for so long starts to leave and I actually think and believe I can live a somewhat normal life. 

 

I just can't go back... no matter how much I can get triggered........

[Vigile]

9 hours ago, Lilith666 said:

If it were just that religion makes people happy, I wouldn't hold it against them. But because they try to suck others into their damaging beliefs, and are manipulative, especially toward children who might not know any better, then we have a problem. I don't think there is a genuine Christian in existence who doesn't do this to some extent. It's not just sad that people go back: it's selfish and wrong because Christianity is so inherently controlling.

 

I'm sad for a lot of them too. Most don't seem to take it to heart and it's like a social club for them, but for those who take it seriously, there is a serious amount of Stockholm Syndrome going on. The religion enslaves one. 

[yunea]

It seems that our long time member went back because he felt something. Something beautiful, so much so that he is telling himself facts don't matter.

Feelings were always my biggest reason too. I didn't care much about the stories (though believed in some sort of woo as a kid) until I saw people getting emotional and wanted to feel the same. 

 

I wonder if that could be me. Well hopefully not with Christianity anymore at least. At this point of my life I know it was all brain activity, my own slightly weirdly functioning senses, and phenomena that happens in groups, nothing supernatural. But maybe if things get awful enough...? Hopefully I'll have enough of my mind left to talk about it here. 

 

ETA:I do have to add that the "brain activity" includes my borderline psychosis around the last time I dove in headfirst. 

They were the happiest, calmest, most wonderful times I ever lived. Because the Creator Himself was leading my way out of the worst hurt* I'd experienced up to that date, and his Son protecting me and I "understood" (felt) it like never before. 

 

(*An even worse hurt was my deconversion, of course.)

[Deva]

9 hours ago, Lilith666 said:

I was raised in the Church and recall being manipulated, one incident being in VBS. The children attending played games, made crafts, listened to Bible stories, and were given snacks and prizes. At the end of every VBS night, I believe, the adult leader asked them if they would like to accept Jesus. In any other organization, this would be considered highly unethical. Would little kids really say no to an adult authority figure to whom their parents had entrusted them, who was supposed to look out for them, who had just played with them and given them goodies, and whom they obviously would not want to disappoint? And they aren't just asked to say a prayer, but to dedicate their lives to the Church following that prayer. 

 

It's predatory, MOHO. Christians who do this will insist they are looking out for the kids by trying to save their souls. But these same people are willing to believe that others, including children who have reached the "age of accountability" that could be anywhere from adolescence to four years old, are going to burn in hell for rejecting Jesus, if it means the Christians themselves don't have to face death. They are sacrificing other people's minds and lives while telling them it's love. It's evil.

It is predatory and extremely manipulative. I remember kids being bribed with candy at the Baptist church. I also had similar experiences with VBS.  Yes, children are going to believe what their parents and authority figures ask them to believe.  They have no power and are totally dependent.

[Deva]

The rabid "end times are just around the corner",  along with pictures of people falling into a lake of fire, etc. type of Christianity is what I am talking about being sad. It is a complete abrogation of thought and leads to a very distorted view of the world.  But it can make a person very happy to believe they are on the "right side" and that things will work out for them in the end.

 

  I am well aware of many people in churches who do not believe any of this, and use it mostly as a social club.  The Episcopal church is full of these people.  That is not nearly so sad and quite understandable.  People go back to church for all kinds of reasons and a place where they can make friends and meet people is certainly one of them. I tried to do that myself, but I find it to be impossibly hypocritical. How, for example, can a person who doesn't believe any of it, recite the creed week after week? How can they tolerate the Bible being held aloft and marched down the aisle like a holy object when they know it isn't?

[SerenelyBlue]

Who is this longtime member who went back?

[Margee]

28 minutes ago, SerenelyBlue said:

Who is this longtime member who went back?

 

Sorry SB. It wouldn't be fair to do this. Hope you understand. 

[SerenelyBlue]

I don't understand what difference it makes for me to know a username...

[Margee]

9 minutes ago, SerenelyBlue said:

I don't understand what difference it makes for me to know a username...

It's actually my fault for bringing up a past member. My bad. I'm sorry, I made a mistake doing this. 

 

If this was anyone of us on the board who went back, we would want to be there for them when they returned. Maybe we can just talk about how easy it is to get sucked back in by the doctrines?

[ag_NO_stic]

12 hours ago, Lilith666 said:

I was raised in the Church and recall being manipulated, one incident being in VBS. The children attending played games, made crafts, listened to Bible stories, and were given snacks and prizes. At the end of every VBS night, I believe, the adult leader asked them if they would like to accept Jesus. In any other organization, this would be considered highly unethical. Would little kids really say no to an adult authority figure to whom their parents had entrusted them, who was supposed to look out for them, who had just played with them and given them goodies, and whom they obviously would not want to disappoint? And they aren't just asked to say a prayer, but to dedicate their lives to the Church following that prayer. 

 

It's predatory, MOHO. Christians who do this will insist they are looking out for the kids by trying to save their souls. But these same people are willing to believe that others, including children who have reached the "age of accountability" that could be anywhere from adolescence to four years old, are going to burn in hell for rejecting Jesus, if it means the Christians themselves don't have to face death. They are sacrificing other people's minds and lives while telling them it's love. It's evil.

 

I completely agree with this, so very evil. My parents cannot understand this, they don't understand my revulsion because they so clearly believe they are right and that they are doing the loving thing. Makes me sick. My "doubts" according to them have made them even more fundamental, it's heartbreaking to watch.

 

As a kid, I NEVER perceived it as manipulation. I was completely brainwashed, no idea how my parents did it. I was so convinced that we believed what was right. My parents have always described me as a questioner and a skeptic, but I never really questioned until I was older. SO into it, I wanted so badly to please god.

[Geezer]

14 hours ago, florduh said:

Bear in mind that many renounce Christianity simply because they have a beef with a pastor, congregation or the bad behavior of some of their fellow Christians. Those who study the Bible, church history, science and ancient history are the ones who eventually see behind the curtain, and they can't just decide to believe something they have proven to be false. WHY you leave has much to do with if you can ever go back.

 

I agree. That is why I tell people that have recently left their faith there is a lot more to de-converting than just walking out the door. You need to know the theological reasons that you want out & that will require study & research. People that don't have a theological reason for leaving are likely to end up returning to Christianity. They may try a different more liberal version of Christianity but many will still go back. 

 

And then there is the reality that some people just need a God in their life. I suppose I was fortunate. I eventually saw all the problems with the Bible & decided to find out why. That is when I began to research to origins & evolution of both the Bible & Christianity. So I did the research first & then I left & I've never had a desire to return. 

 

I've acknowledged I attend  a Methodist Church with my wife, just to keep her company. That experience just strengthens my decision to reject Christianity. In my head I'm saying No, No, No that is not true or that is a pathetic interpretation of that particular scripture. I tend to critique the teachers & Preachers & give them a grade which is usually an F.

 

It almost amazes me just how ill informed Bible School teachers really are. Fortunately Methodist preachers don't preach like fundamentalists preachers do. The don't preach on sin, punishment, damnation, & hell. Their sermons are focused more on being a good person & helping others & I can tolerate that.

 

 

[ag_NO_stic]

2 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

I agree. That is why I tell people that have recently left their faith there is a lot more to de-converting than just walking out the door. You need to know the theological reasons that you want out & that will require study & research. People that don't have a theological reason for leaving are likely to end up returning to Christianity. They may try a different more liberal version of Christianity but many will still go back. 

 

And then there is the reality that some people just need a God in their life. 

I have ZERO problem whatsoever with people "needing a God," I am sick of "God" only referring to the Christian's version which also includes guilt tripping, forcing religion down your throat, illogical/irrational thinking, not educating people with modern scientific theory, etc. If someone needs a god, what's it to me? But don't tell me I'm going to hell for not joining you in your sick beliefs.

[Lilith666]

7 hours ago, Deva said:

It is predatory and extremely manipulative. I remember kids being bribed with candy at the Baptist church. I also had similar experiences with VBS.  Yes, children are going to believe what their parents and authority figures ask them to believe.  They have no power and are totally dependent.

Isn't it funny that Christians freak out trans people will molest kids if they use the same bathroom, then demonstrate their deep concern for Jesus's precious little ones by preying on them?

[MOHO]

15 hours ago, Margee said:

 

I may sorta do this also..... but I do think it ties in with how strong the brainwashing can be with christiaity.

 

I returned over and over to church quite a few times before I found Ex-c.

It is evil. I take responsibility for my whole life today but as I look back, christianity played a huge part in some of my worst failures. I just cannot go back. It poisoned my whole life.

 

I have never told 100% of my story on this board because I am so ashamed of my past. For 7 years on this board, I've broken up my story hoping no one would put the whole mess together because I am embarrassed by my story. 

 

I got married for the first time when I was 19 years old. That marriage lasted for 17 years. I got 'saved' at  20 and very slowly over time, the problems began in this once beautiful relationship. I went real easy on my husband for years (no preaching) because the pastor told me that if I prayed hard enough and was the perfect 'godly' wife, the lord would eventually bring him into the fold. For years, I went alone to church. Single men asked me out because they did not ever see me with a boyfriend or husband. When I would show them my wedding ring, they would get so embarrassed.

 

I wanted to go to church with my husband. But he would not go. I was ''unequally yoked'' according to my Pentecostal church. Once, my young husband barred the door and begged me not to go. He told me that they had me brainwashed. He hated the church I was going to. I thought my husband was turning into the devil. I started to look at every negative thing that I didn't like about him and began distancing myself from our marriage. (and he was the most wonderful man in the world)  Soon, I left that marriage. I had to. I didn't see anything happening to him that he would be my 'partner in christ'. And I wanted a partner in christ.  I have to live with this regret till the day I die. I was so young and naive back then and it grieves my heart to this very day.

 

 I wanted a 'godly' man. And that is another rotten story for another time.....

 

Christianity helped me make many bad choices. All trying to please a god that was never there. Do I still have anger at this? You bet your bottom dollar I do!! I have had to grieve so many things while I was on this board in the last few years. Sometimes as I talk about all of this, the depression that has me weighed down for so long starts to leave and I actually think and believe I can live a somewhat normal life. 

 

I just can't go back... no matter how much I can get triggered........

 

I don't know what to say, @Margee, except that my heart goes out to you.

 

I have a question that, if too personal, just say so but why did the xtian belief that the believing partner should not terminate the marriage not have enough impact on you to stay. I'm asking because this could happen to me any day. Mrs. MOHO could throw in the towel on trying to bring me back into the fold.

 

Don't ride yourself too hard for leaving what sounds like a good marriage - you KNOW how powerful the indoctrination can be. You are justified in begin angry with it. I am too!

[Geezer]

16 hours ago, Margee said:

 

I may sorta do this also..... but I do think it ties in with how strong the brainwashing can be with christiaity.

 

I returned over and over to church quite a few times before I found Ex-c.

It is evil. I take responsibility for my whole life today but as I look back, christianity played a huge part in some of my worst failures. I just cannot go back. It poisoned my whole life.

 

I have never told 100% of my story on this board because I am so ashamed of my past. For 7 years on this board, I've broken up my story hoping no one would put the whole mess together because I am embarrassed by my story. 

 

I got married for the first time when I was 19 years old. That marriage lasted for 17 years. I got 'saved' at  20 and very slowly over time, the problems began in this once beautiful relationship. I went real easy on my husband for years (no preaching) because the pastor told me that if I prayed hard enough and was the perfect 'godly' wife, the lord would eventually bring him into the fold. For years, I went alone to church. Single men asked me out because they did not ever see me with a boyfriend or husband. When I would show them my wedding ring, they would get so embarrassed.

 

I wanted to go to church with my husband. But he would not go. I was ''unequally yoked'' according to my Pentecostal church. Once, my young husband barred the door and begged me not to go. He told me that they had me brainwashed. He hated the church I was going to. I thought my husband was turning into the devil. I started to look at every negative thing that I didn't like about him and began distancing myself from our marriage. (and he was the most wonderful man in the world)  Soon, I left that marriage. I had to. I didn't see anything happening to him that he would be my 'partner in christ'. And I wanted a partner in christ.  I have to live with this regret till the day I die. I was so young and naive back then and it grieves my heart to this very day.

 

 I wanted a 'godly' man. And that is another rotten story for another time.....

 

Christianity helped me make many bad choices. All trying to please a god that was never there. Do I still have anger at this? You bet your bottom dollar I do. I have had to grieve so many things while I was on this board in the last few years. Sometimes as I talk about all of this, the depression that has me weighed down for so long starts to leave and I actually think and believe I can live a somewhat normal life. 

 

I just can't go back... no matter how much I can get triggered........

 

I know you like to give out hugs, so here are a bunch of hugs just for you sweetie. (Lots & lots of Hugs) I used to think the Church of Christ was as bat shit crazy as Fundies could get, but I'm convinced now the Pentecostals have taken crazy into uncharted waters where no one has gone before. They have managed to go beyond bat shit crazy into mentally ill territory.  

[Margee]

3 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

I don't know what to say, @Margee, except that my heart goes out to you.

 

I have a question that, if too personal, just say so but why did the xtian belief that the believing partner should not terminate the marriage not have enough impact on you to stay. I'm asking because this could happen to me any day. Mrs. MOHO could throw in the towel on trying to bring me back into the fold.

 

Don't ride yourself too hard for leaving what sounds like a good marriage - you KNOW how powerful the indoctrination can be. You are justified in begin angry with it. I am too!

3 hours ago, MOHO said:

 

2

 

Thank you MOHO. I have been doing a lot of reflecting on my whole life in the past year and some of it makes me so sad to think I could have hurt the people that I loved in the stupidity of my youth. One thing I did a few years ago was write a very long letter of amends to him and we got together to discuss how our marriage failed and cried our hearts out saying a final goodbye. It was too late to go back together. He also owned up to certain areas of how he could have made the marriage better for me because he was away for 6 months of the year and that made it very hard on 2 young people.

 

I have tried so hard throughout the years to hold my shit together. By nature, I am a private person and won't let most people know how I'm really feeling. No matter what I go through, I  try to show the world a smile if I can. I do all my crying in private. If I was to report to Ex-c everytime I had cried in the last 7 years on this board, they would have heard from me about every second or third day. It is getting better lately because I am forgiving myself for all the fuck-ups. Young. Stupid and naive.....and hooked on the drug... ''Jesus.'' I am watching my own kids making mistakes and have to let them go because they would never listen to me anyway. I just keep telling them that there are consequences for every choice they make.

 

 I think I understand your question. I think my circumstances were different. Let me try to explain. I was backsliding from the church before the marriage ended. Everyone around me made fun of me for being a born-again christian. (especially my family members) They all toked, drank, and partied like normal young people. I was already not feeling worthy in the church so I slipped away for awhile. I felt like I could never live up to what god wanted from me.

 

So I decided to party with the rest of them. And I got myself in big trouble. The next thing I knew, I was partying like crazy.  Now, I really couldn't make anyone happy. They didn't like me drinking either. I showed them how to party. (I have a huge addictive personality that I didn't know I had back then) so this started creating its own set of problems within the marriage. I have written about the drinking spell before on Ex. I was a complete mess. (with a smile on my face of course) I had messed up a whole bunch of things. After we separated, I crawled back to the church where they told me satan had a hold of my life. So they counseled me and I gave my life back to the lord. The pastor actually wanted me to reconcile my marriage but it was much too late, too much hurt had gone by. I did give up drinking and still, to this day, I won't touch alcohol. It's as poisonous to me as religion.  

 

The difference between this situation and yours is that my husband would never go to church with me. You were once involved with Mrs. MOHO and going to church together.

 

 Nobody at the church I attended for those years ever encouraged me to leave my marriage. They just always preached why it was hard being with someone who wasn't a believer.. and I knew that to be true, so it fueled me to become resentful towards my husband.

 

As long as Mrs. MOHO's church is not preaching on this constantly, she will just probably be praying real hard for you to come back to the fold. Just keep being a nice and loving. That's the best you can do right now.

 

Hang in there my friend. (hug)

[Margee]

2 hours ago, Geezer said:

 

I know you like to give out hugs, so here are a bunch of hugs just for you sweetie. (Lots & lots of Hugs) I used to think the Church of Christ was as bat shit crazy as Fundies could get, but I'm convinced now the Pentecostals have taken crazy into uncharted waters where no one has gone before. They have managed to go beyond bat shit crazy into mentally ill territory.  

Thank you Geezer.  So much.  These are the people who are getting excited over the last days. They love the 'bloodbaths up to the knees'' in the world today because that means jesus is coming to rescue his people....which are christians of course.  I might have been a bit crazy in my youth coming from a mostly loving, mixed up, dysfunctional home (where I believe everyone did the best they could as I look back on it) but I know for a fact that religion had messed me up real bad.

 

Huge ((hug))

[MOHO]

42 minutes ago, Margee said:

Hang in there my friend. (hug)

 

HUGS X 1k

[Deva]

9 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

I completely agree with this, so very evil. My parents cannot understand this, they don't understand my revulsion because they so clearly believe they are right and that they are doing the loving thing. Makes me sick. My "doubts" according to them have made them even more fundamental, it's heartbreaking to watch.

 

As a kid, I NEVER perceived it as manipulation. I was completely brainwashed, no idea how my parents did it. I was so convinced that we believed what was right. My parents have always described me as a questioner and a skeptic, but I never really questioned until I was older. SO into it, I wanted so badly to please god.

Oh yes, as a child I never saw it as manipulation either. I thought there must be something wrong with me if I couldn't believe it.  The only thing was that after I was I teenager the whole thing seemed more and more unreal and remote from everyday experience, especially as I began to observe nature in a very keen way. Then I had a breakthrough one evening when I was listening to a preacher on the radio who said something to the effect that you should be sure of your salvation.  I just thought that was a total impossibility.  Complete baloney.  That could have been the moment when I rather decisively dismissed it all intellectually.

 

But  I still wanted to please my parents and authority figures. I still do it today. This trait has to be wired into me genetically (this could open up a whole new thread topic). Its probably why I can successfully work for attorneys!

[Deva]

1 hour ago, Margee said:

Thank you Geezer.  So much.  These are the people who are getting excited over the last days. They love the 'bloodbaths up to the knees'' in the world today because that means jesus is coming to rescue his people....which are christians of course.  I might have been a bit crazy in my youth coming from a mostly loving, mixed up, dysfunctional home (where I believe everyone did the best they could as I look back on it) but I know for a fact that religion had messed me up real bad.

 

Huge ((hug))

 Let me just say I hope posting this thread did not cause you pain, Margee. Of course, never my intention! 

 

Reliving the past is something I do more and more now that I am older.  But I don't really thing I had much choice in some of the major decisions I made that didn't turn out well.  I really think a lot of it was just inevitable.

Getting back to how bad this end times religion is - of course Christians believe they will be saved on the basis of their belief alone. But other scriptures say otherwise. So I can't see how they can cherry pick and hone in on some verses or set of verses (mostly Paul's letters) and ignore the other parts that go against this. I say its a form of selective blindness, and it is through their entire lives.  Its just like otherwise normal and intelligent people with blinders on.  There is so much in the world they will not look at.

[skysoar15]

What's sadder is that we live in a society like this. Where there is so much hurt and pain that we feel the need to rely on something like Christianity.