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Who Goes to Hell?


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I've been sitting on this for a while.  I was watching Robert Jeffress on TBN and listening to some sermon or another, and he was talking about Hell and some other stuff.  His argument for Hell was interesting.  He said Hell had to exist because Jesus said it did.  Narrow path and all that.  If everyone, or even most people, went to Heaven then Jesus would be wrong, and since he can't be wrong by definition most of the world has to suffer for eternity, because if he's wrong then he's not partly God.  I was flabbergasted.  I don't think I'd ever heard of something so cruel since actually reading the Bible itself.  Anyway, it's been on my mind a lot lately, so I thought I'd share.

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     According to South Park the Mormons go to heaven.  Kenny makes it there to command the heavenly troops in battle until he comes back to life (as he's known to do) and Saddam Hussein gets kicked up there too (where he starts building weapons).

 

     But that's all make believe.  I'll focus on the real heaven and real hell for awhile now...

 

     And that about sums it up.  I hope this helps all those who worry about this stuff see the difference between the fictional and real heavens and hells.

 

          mwc

 

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3 hours ago, 1989 said:

I've been sitting on this for a while.  I was watching Robert Jeffress on TBN and listening to some sermon or another, and he was talking about Hell and some other stuff.  His argument for Hell was interesting.  He said Hell had to exist because Jesus said it did.  Narrow path and all that.  If everyone, or even most people, went to Heaven then Jesus would be wrong, and since he can't be wrong by definition most of the world has to suffer for eternity, because if he's wrong then he's not partly God.  I was flabbergasted.  I don't think I'd ever heard of something so cruel since actually reading the Bible itself.  Anyway, it's been on my mind a lot lately, so I thought I'd share.

 

This is actually part of the reason I deconverted. Nobody fucking knows, so focus on both the heaven and hell that you already experience while you are alive. 

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Well, according to the church that I grew up in, anybody who wasn't a faithful "Church of Christ" member was on the highway to hell. So, almost everyone....  :D

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10 hours ago, 1989 said:

I've been sitting on this for a while.  I was watching Robert Jeffress on TBN and listening to some sermon or another, and he was talking about Hell and some other stuff.  His argument for Hell was interesting.  He said Hell had to exist because Jesus said it did.  Narrow path and all that.  If everyone, or even most people, went to Heaven then Jesus would be wrong, and since he can't be wrong by definition most of the world has to suffer for eternity, because if he's wrong then he's not partly God.  I was flabbergasted.  I don't think I'd ever heard of something so cruel since actually reading the Bible itself.  Anyway, it's been on my mind a lot lately, so I thought I'd share.

 

Robert Jeffress is a fruitcake. The major problem with Jeffress' sermon is that neither Jesus or Hell exists. This is the sort of thing that happens when a person is incapable of distinguishing fiction from history. 

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Oh, I agree that it's all bullshit, but I don't think I've ever heard a preacher say that God doesn't want everyone to be saved and go to Heaven or that God needs people to go to Hell.  It just took me off guard is all.

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52 minutes ago, 1989 said:

Oh, I agree that it's all bullshit, but I don't think I've ever heard a preacher say that God doesn't want everyone to be saved and go to Heaven or that God needs people to go to Hell.  It just took me off guard is all.

 

Well, he's right. The path is definitely narrow....as in so narrow that it's invisible. That is probably why people have such a tough time finding it. That and the fact the Bible doesn't appear to be able to tell folks how to even find the "right" path. Many apparently think they found the right path and feel like they are definitely on the right path, only to find out after reading the Bible some more,.....nope, you're not on the right path after all. You only thought you were on the right path. Truthfully, the "right" path isn't in the Bible. Apparently there are lots of paths in the Bible, but it seems they all lead to hell. 

 

That's the big secret religion doesn't want you to know........there ain't no path dude! Everybody is going to hell because there ain't nobody good enough to go to heaven as per the Bible.

 

Matthew 7:21-22  Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name,and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

See, the preacher is right,.....the game is rigged. :(

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Well depends on which hell.

 

I'd say nobody because it doesn't exist.

 

If you are a Muslim then certainly anyone who's not a Muslim goes to hell, and so on for every religion.

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According to Pentecostals, only Pentecostals go to heaven- because they say water baptism as an adult is the only way to go to heaven- they actually believe this shit. I did too- I got water baptised 5 years ago and my life went downhill from there- became weirder after that and heard God 'say' weird and crazy things to me to follow- which I did- which completely fucked up my life.

Water baptism is VERY IMPORTANT AND UNAVOIDABLE FOR PENTECOSTALS.

The above is the belief system of Indian Pentecostals.

Don't know about other Pentecostals. 

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17 hours ago, ExPCA said:

 

Playing devil's advocate here.

 

I mostly agree. You did not provide much context for the Matthew 7:21-22 text.

 

Christians will argue that the right path is obedience to god's law as laid out in the bible. And when failing (which everyone does and which apparently sanctifies if rightfully repented of), they are to fall back on the ideas that there is vicarious justification and redemption through Christ. It is a mindlessly frustrating cycle.

 

What are your thoughts on this, Geezer?

 

 

 

I think this question deserves a topic of it's own. I'm going to start a topic about this and I will label it "Why the NT Is Confusing & Contradictive" I will put it in the General Christian Theological Issues.  

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On 11/7/2017 at 4:29 AM, 1989 said:

I've been sitting on this for a while.  I was watching Robert Jeffress on TBN and listening to some sermon or another, and he was talking about Hell and some other stuff.  His argument for Hell was interesting.  He said Hell had to exist because Jesus said it did.  Narrow path and all that.  If everyone, or even most people, went to Heaven then Jesus would be wrong, and since he can't be wrong by definition most of the world has to suffer for eternity, because if he's wrong then he's not partly God.  I was flabbergasted.  I don't think I'd ever heard of something so cruel since actually reading the Bible itself.  Anyway, it's been on my mind a lot lately, so I thought I'd share.

But from what I understand "hell" was the valley of Hinnom,  Gehenna, a burning garbage dump where criminals and trash were thrown.  I suspect Christians of conspiring to scare everyone with a burning lake or place of torment so they can stuff their offering plates.

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2 hours ago, ToddJ said:

But from what I understand "hell" was the valley of Hinnom,  Gehenna, a burning garbage dump where criminals and trash were thrown.  I suspect Christians of conspiring to scare everyone with a burning lake or place of torment so they can stuff their offering plates.

 

I have heard this explanation for the original concept of hell and I'm not convinced.

 

The idea of a lake of fire has been used by Egyptian and Greek mythologies as well as Christianity and Islam. One might ask well where did this idea of a terrifying lake of fire come from? Might I posit a possible origin point:

 

Arguably one of the most terrifying forces of nature:

 

591ff3b0c361880b458b456a.jpg

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On 08/11/2017 at 9:26 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I have heard this explanation for the original concept of hell and I'm not convinced.

 

What is you are not convinced of LF, that hell was the valley of Hinnom and Gehenna was a burning garbage dump where criminals and trash were thrown, or was there something else? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this

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3 hours ago, SeaJay said:

 

What is you are not convinced of LF, that hell was the valley of Hinnom and Gehenna was a burning garbage dump where criminals and trash were thrown, or was there something else? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this

 

Hi SeaJay, good to sea you are still hanging around.

 

I am not convinced that the original concept of hell as we know of it today started off as Gehenna. It's part of it, but the concepts tied up the idea of hell can be traced back much further than the 1st Century.

 

As we know Gehenna is a combination of the words Gee and Hinnom which meant valley of Hinnom.  http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html In the Greek this is combined as Gehenna. It was not a burning garbage dump, but rather a place where pagan Israelite would burn their children as sacrifices to the god Moloch. What is interesting is that this practice didn't occur until Israel was established as a Kingdom, yet the Torah supposedly written by Moses refers to passing through the fires of Moloch in Leviticus before they even had contact with the Canaanites (Moloch is a Canaanite god). This little riddle is easily explained by the fact that the Torah was not written by Moses, but by writers existing long after the supposed time of Moses who of course had knowledge of this practice. So when Jesus is reported as saying someone would burn in the fires of hell, it was in reference to this old practice. Probably an original translation would be something like "And they will burn in the fires of the valley of Hinnom" Valley of Hinnom became Gehenna, Gehenna translated into English as Hell... as did Hades and Tartarus. 

 

However a valley where children were burned, while accounting for this burning in hell concept, does not explain the original concept of a place under the earth with a lake of fire etc. This is better explained by the concepts of Egyptian and Greek concepts of the underworld or Hades and Tartarus. What the Christian concept added to these places where dead people went was the idea of burning for eternity - that is an original, as far as I can tell, to Christianity.

 

So you see our concept to day of Hell as a place 'somewhere' (Most no longer believe it to beneath the earth... because science) where dead people go, and are burned in eternal torment is a combination of different concepts from around the Mediterranean. 

 

It's strange God would come up with this concept millennia after the Sumerians first came up with a dark dreary cavern beneath the earth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

 

Another point of similarity is the concept of being judged at this underworld place and it having a ruler. We have Anubis for the Egyptians, Hades for Hades and Tartarus, Satan/Lucifer for Hell etc. 

 

Once you understand this, you realize hell is entirely a human made concept that has evolved through the millennia as different peoples and religions interacted.

 

As an aside, talking of taking concepts from other religions and inserting into Christianity: Do you know why December 25th is celebrated as Jesus birthday? It was the birthday of the pagan sun god (Son of god??) Mithra. Naturally when the Christians rose to power under Constantine they obliterated all classic religions... but handily took some of their dates and practices as it helped with assimilation of former devotees of these religions. Hence Merry Christmas. I am tempted to hang a picture of the sun in my window this Christmas. :D 

 

That's my thoughts.

 

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Thanks for that LF, very interesting. I'd missed the Molech entry in the Old Testament but yes, I've read up on the Dec 25 mithras school of thought. 

 

It looks like we can pinpoint the idea of where hell came from, be that the fires of molech in Leviticus of the burning rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, Sumeria or elsewhere. But what do you think about the idea that even though they are actual places/events in history, that Jesus used them to teach about a literal hell?

 

What I mean is, Christadelphians (and probably a good few others today) teach that hell is not a literal place. That Jesus was just using places/events in history to teach in a symbolic sense that sinners will be punished (but not with eternal agony, but obliteration). Whereas those believing in hell will say "No. Jesus was not using symbology from anything, he was simply teaching hell is a real place."

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1 hour ago, SeaJay said:

Thanks for that LF, very interesting. I'd missed the Molech entry in the Old Testament but yes, I've read up on the Dec 25 mithras school of thought. 

 

It looks like we can pinpoint the idea of where hell came from, be that the fires of molech in Leviticus of the burning rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, Sumeria or elsewhere. But what do you think about the idea that even though they are actual places/events in history, that Jesus used them to teach about a literal hell?

 

What I mean is, Christadelphians (and probably a good few others today) teach that hell is not a literal place. That Jesus was just using places/events in history to teach in a symbolic sense that sinners will be punished (but not with eternal agony, but obliteration). Whereas those believing in hell will say "No. Jesus was not using symbology from anything, he was simply teaching hell is a real place."

 

Well we cannot ever really know that can we because we cannot ask Jesus what he actually meant. (I won't even go into the possibility of Jesus being entirely mythical)

 

What we can do is use this resource by CARM (Thanks christian apologists) to quickly run through all references to hell, ordered by their original translation of Gehenna, Hades, Or Tartarus.

 

https://carm.org/what-are-the-verses-that-mention-hell 

 

As a quick aside take this verse from Peter, written around 80-90 AD "

  • 2 Pet. 2:4, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.""

Written in Greek, the word used there is Tartarus, and the only time its used. Now what is interesting is that around 600 BC the Greeks write that Zeus, the god of gods (Familiar phrase? Lord of Lords?) rose up against the Titans and cast them into Tartarus. Just an interesting note.

 

Back to hell being literal. Reading all the mentions of the New Testament they are referenced as an actual place. Terms like go to hell, or thrown to hell indicate the concept of a physical place, not an idea of obliteration or separation from God.

 

My personal opinion, is that the bible writers wrote hell as if it were real. Later along comes some people with whom the idea of people burning forever didn't sit well with them (Quite rightly so). Therefore they said, as they do with many other portions, oh its not meant as literal, it's symbolic, or somesuch. However I disagree with a symbolic interpretation and think Jesus is written about as having meant a literal hell.

 

But I would hope I've given you enough reason to see that the entire concept of hell is man made. Just because people talk about it as if it were literal does not make it so. I talk about my invisible unicorn as if its literal at times to make a point. At no point does me referring to it as literal mean its real.

 

Cheers bud.

 

I'm off to bed now, but post back and I'll respond further if need be tomorrow.

Lf

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On 11/7/2017 at 9:10 AM, Tsathoggua9 said:

Well, according to the church that I grew up in, anybody who wasn't a faithful "Church of Christ" member was on the highway to hell. So, almost everyone....  :D

Ooh that reminds me of the Lamaze class my wife and I were in where this other guy was in it and somehow he and I started talking about church or something. I grew up and was a minister in the Christian church/churches of Christ brotherhood and he said he went to a church of Christ and I said "oh we are on the same team. I am a Christian church minister" and he said "no we aren't. You don't belong to the church of Christ." I was like "huh?"

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There's no hell, there used to be but there's not one now as we knew it, and this is how things changed:

When the Second World War ended, Hitler shot himself and toddled off to Hell as it then was. Satan could just about contain the Neo Nazism that erupted next, but then Stalin died, and, not being a believer, ya know where he went. Not even Satan could contain the war which followed, so he left those two to duke it out, went up to heaven and claimed status as a political refugee.

Casey

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On 11/10/2017 at 5:12 AM, SeaJay said:

Thanks for that LF, very interesting. I'd missed the Molech entry in the Old Testament but yes, I've read up on the Dec 25 mithras school of thought. 

 

It looks like we can pinpoint the idea of where hell came from, be that the fires of molech in Leviticus of the burning rubbish dump outside Jerusalem, Sumeria or elsewhere. But what do you think about the idea that even though they are actual places/events in history, that Jesus used them to teach about a literal hell?

 

What I mean is, Christadelphians (and probably a good few others today) teach that hell is not a literal place. That Jesus was just using places/events in history to teach in a symbolic sense that sinners will be punished (but not with eternal agony, but obliteration). Whereas those believing in hell will say "No. Jesus was not using symbology from anything, he was simply teaching hell is a real place."

One of the contributors to my loss of faith was the lack of scriptural evidence supporting this idea of hell; something I was taught my entire life to be true. Gehenna was never a place of mythical torments until Christians (or whoever) interpreted words instead of translated them. Thus, the concept was built on such flimsy reasoning it spurred me to question many, many more theological concepts.

 

In the end - whether real or not, I found I could never endorse a deity who could engineer, construct and implement a place of such horrors for the same reasons I'd never befriend the kidnapper/serial killer who built the same thing his basement and yet told me he was such a great guy. Decent human behavior and principles surpass the behaviors of the god of the bible by light years.

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According to Jesus, Gentiles are dogs, too. If Hell is real because Jesus mentioned Hell, then are Gentiles really dogs because Jesus said they were? I argue with fundamentalists all the time. People who believe every word of the Bible is literal cannot reason rationally. I believe them to be psychopathic.

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