Still trying to get over indoctrination

[Borticus]

To summarize my story with Christianity, it would go like this. I was a general theist that was having fears of hell before my mom and stepdad introduced Christianity to me. I was part of the Church they went to for a couple of years until I started working and stopped going there almost all together. Eventually I started gaining a budding fascination in science and starting learning how the universe as a whole worked. Eventually I started to question my faith and decided to accept the scientifically proven facts as how the universe works. Years later after family issues and a death in the family I went on to live with my dad where there wasn’t as many religious influences. However with certain problems arising earlier this year I eventually relapsed into Christianity and all seemed fine until I learned about apostasy. The fear of being eternally locked out of heaven was almost to much to bear, I couldn’t sleep or find anything to be happy about. I was even considering suicide just to get the judgement of God over with until I came the conclusion, what kind of all loving creator would punish me for questioning his existence? Eventually I moved away from religion all together and have been slowly recovering from its ill effects. However from time to time I find myself thinking about Hell and what if going there.

 

Tl;dr

I became a Christian as a teen, stop being one after learning about scientific theories of life and origins. Certain issues came about that convinced me to be a Christian again until I learned about apostasy and the punishment that entails with it. Left religion all together after question the omnibenevolence of god. I still struggle with the thought of going to hell from time to time.

[Geezer]

Education is the key. I assume you are aware there are two approaches to religion. One is apologetics aka "defending the faith". Basically an apologist job is to convince people that the group they represent has the right beliefs, they worship God correctly, and their traditions are pleasing to God. Each group of the estimated 40,000 versions of present day Christianity has their own "apologist." I personally refer to apologist as professional liars. They are experts when it comes to parsing words and inventing interpretations of scripture that validates their particular groups beliefs.

 

The other approach to religion is called the historical critical perspective. This is the historical approach to religion and their sacred text. I call historians fact checkers because that is essentially what they do. This option, in my opinion, is the only way to study religion. Historians are very good when it comes to separating fact from fiction and religion is virtually all fiction. 

 

Heaven and Hell have human origins and their purpose is obvious. Religion is based on a rewards punishment agenda. The reward (heaven) is the inducement to get new followers and to keep them. The punishment is (hell) and it's purpose is to scare believers and make them easier to control. Do what we say and believe what we tell you or God will burn you alive in hell forever. It's all man made bullshit. There is no heaven or hell. When we die we go to sleep and just never wake up. There isn't anything else. 

 

Bart Ehrman is a good scholar to read when it comes to exposing the Bible as a very flawed man made collection of writings. The Bible is a collection of fictional stories with fictional characters. Jesus and Paul were both likely literary figures and the stories about them are fictional. 

 

Youtube has a lot of information if you prefer that to reading books. Dr. Bart Ehrman, Dr. Robert M Price, Dr. Richard Carrier are a few historians I'd recommend. They all have a number of videos on youtube. 

 

In a nutshell all religions are man made and their stories are pure fiction. Don't sweat it Borticus hell does not exist. You are wise in that you recognize that you've been indoctrinated. 

 

Oh yeah, welcome aboard. I'm sure you'll find this site very helpful and informative. Atheists are some of the best informed people on the planet when it comes to the bible and the Christian faith. (That's why they are atheists)

 

 

 

[Margee]

1 hour ago, Borticus said:

To summarize my story with Christianity, it would go like this. I was a general theist that was having fears of hell before my mom and stepdad introduced Christianity to me. I was part of the Church they went to for a couple of years until I started working and stopped going there almost all together. Eventually I started gaining a budding fascination in science and starting learning how the universe as a whole worked. Eventually I started to question my faith and decided to accept the scientifically proven facts as how the universe works. Years later after family issues and a death in the family I went on to live with my dad where there wasn’t as many religious influences. However with certain problems arising earlier this year I eventually relapsed into Christianity and all seemed fine until I learned about apostasy. The fear of being eternally locked out of heaven was almost to much to bear, I couldn’t sleep or find anything to be happy about. I was even considering suicide just to get the judgement of God over with until I came the conclusion, what kind of all loving creator would punish me for questioning his existence? Eventually I moved away from religion all together and have been slowly recovering from its ill effects. However from time to time I find myself thinking about Hell and what if going there.

 

Tl;dr

I became a Christian as a teen, stop being one after learning about scientific theories of life and origins. Certain issues came about that convinced me to be a Christian again until I learned about apostasy and the punishment that entails with it. Left religion all together after question the omnibenevolence of god. I still struggle with the thought of going to hell from time to time.

 

Welcome to Ex-c Borticus. Thanks for sharing. I think Geezer said it all. Learning real facts is so important. Then it takes time to 'unbelieve' everything you have been taught. This will cause your brain a lot of confusion at first because you have been indoctrinated by many false facts taken from a man-made written book. Go easy on yourself. It takes time to unlearn and begin to form a new worldview. We're here for you. Keep reading all the testimonies. You will see that you are not alone. We understand what you are going through. Glad you found us.

 

(hug)

[Borticus]

I have been going through the process of unbelieving and it’s growing pains. It’s just that everytime I try to accept what has been actually proven with science or logic I can hear the fundamental apologists “debunking” those truths. It’s like everything that proves that Yahweh doesn’t exist or that the Bible isn’t infallible, I hear that little Christian apologists voice in the back of my head.

[sdelsolray]

28 minutes ago, Borticus said:

I have been going through the process of unbelieving and it’s growing pains. It’s just that everytime I try to accept what has been actually proven with science or logic I can hear the fundamental apologists “debunking” those truths. It’s like everything that proves that Yahweh doesn’t exist or that the Bible isn’t infallible, I hear that little Christian apologists voice in the back of my head.

 

Christian Apologetics usually contain logical fallacies (such as mere assertions, strawmen, arguments from incredulity, etc.), lies (too many to list), misuses of the burden of proof, non-sequiturs, rhetorical cheating (e.g., Gish Gallops), proselytizing of dogma, among many other duplicitous devices.  

 

You simply need to learn how to identify them when they are used, in real time while you are reading or listening to them.  That skill takes quite a bit of time to develop.  Be patient.  Work hard.

 

Keep in mind that almost all Christian Apologetics have been around for centuries.  Few living humans have invented the Apologetics they spew.  They are merely repeating them.  You will find that speakers and writers of Christian Apologetics generally fall into two categories (i) those that are oblivious to the irrationality of what they promote and (ii) those that are well aware of the faults but nevertheless continue to peddle them.  The former are simply uneducated or unaware or, at worst, are lazy and willfully ignorant.  The later are little shits, deeply infected with a virulent strain of the Christian God Virus and often have deep emotional and psychological problems.

[older]

Hi Borticus:

 

The only thing I could add to the good advice above is that some morning you will wake up and feel a tremendous weight has been lifted from your shoulders. You'll feel a freedom you never felt when you were a Christian. It's hard to say when that day will come, but it will. Keep checking in to this site and keep us posted. We're rooting for you.

[Borticus]

Are any of you familiar with the apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate? Essentially that’s all I hear in my mind when I try to reach a logical conclusion about science, religion, or life in general. “How do you know?” Is pretty much what it boils down to. 

[Geezer]

1 hour ago, Borticus said:

Are any of you familiar with the apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate? Essentially that’s all I hear in my mind when I try to reach a logical conclusion about science, religion, or life in general. “How do you know?” Is pretty much what it boils down to. 

 

As I said in a previous post, the hidden truth about the Bible & the Christian Faith is easily accessible. Historians have peer reviewed documented evidence that reveal the truth about both the Bible & the Christian Faith. If you don't feel like investing the time or money to read the books they've written condensed versions are available on YouTube. 

 

Assuming you investigate what historians have discovered then you will have to decide whether the historians or the apologists are speaking the truth. Yale University school of religion posts all of their professors lectures on YouTube. Each class runs about 48 minutes. Both the OT & NT are covered as well as relevant ancient history and all of that is free. 

 

If you check that out you will discover the professors are teaching what folks here are telling you. To see these lectures go to YouTube and search Yale courses religion. 

[sdelsolray]

4 hours ago, Borticus said:

Are any of you familiar with the apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate? Essentially that’s all I hear in my mind when I try to reach a logical conclusion about science, religion, or life in general. “How do you know?” Is pretty much what it boils down to. 

 

Sye Ten Bruggencate is a good example of a Christian Apologist who use logical fallacies, lies and other disingenuous behavior to promote his beliefs upon others.  Basically, he's a presuppositionalist and an intellectual coward.  That's a bad combination, but is often entertaining to watch.  On a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being very poor at apologetics and 10 being excellent at apologetics), he's about a 3.  He would be a good case study for you to learn how to identify his faulty logic, lies and other irrational arguments.

 

Here's a decent place to start:

 

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sye_Ten_Bruggencate

 

As to the "How do you know?" quip, of which Sye Ten Bruggencate seems quite proud, note the following hypothetical dialog:

 

Bruggencate:  How do you know?

Me (or you):  I don't know, and neither do you.

[older]

8 hours ago, Borticus said:

...

“How do you know?” Is pretty much what it boils down to. 

 

Facts, logic and common sense.

 

Ask this of a believer: "Do you believe this because it makes sense or do you believe it because other people have convinced you that bad things will happen to you if you don't."

 

Religion is based on fear. Those who practice it are laden with fear and they project that fear onto others. They are afraid of sex, afraid of the dark, afraid of the unknown, and afraid of death. Mark Twain once wrote: “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

[BobCu]

On 11/11/2017 at 1:02 PM, Borticus said:

However from time to time I find myself thinking about Hell and what if going there.

I don't "think" the hell fantasy is bullshit. I "know" the hell fantasy is bullshit. How do I know this? I know hell is bullshit because I'm not batshit crazy.

 

Only reality is real. A magical heaven and a magical hell are not real. There is no magic in the universe. Period.

 

Is it OK if I plug my anti-god-fairy pro-science blog? http://darwinkilledgod.blogspot.com

[DrGuitar]

I think there is an afterlife and I think there is much evidence to support it. What intrigues and puzzles me is how former Christians seem incapable of conceiving of an afterlife apart from the biblical one, it's either Jesus or god doesn't exist at all. Both positions are contrary to evidence. There's no Jesus, but there is an afterlife. This tells me that even exChristians are so brainwashed they cannot conceive the possibility of any other god than the fictional Yahweh. It seems as if atheism is also dogmatic. I think the truth of reality supports a designer but it is NOT the hateful ethnocentric Jewish creation of the Bible. But if I WAS to invent a god, I have to hand it to the Jews,  they created one that loved only them and gave them carte blanche to rape, steal and murder. It goes on today even! Yahweh, the God that keeps on killing!

[Blood]

On 11/12/2017 at 6:55 AM, Borticus said:

Are any of you familiar with the apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate? Essentially that’s all I hear in my mind when I try to reach a logical conclusion about science, religion, or life in general. “How do you know?” Is pretty much what it boils down to. 

 

Yes, he can sound very logical sometimes. He's a victim of a psychological disorder that I've termed "inverted skepticism." Victims of this disorder have been so indoctrinated with myths and myth-rationalizing skills that they have internalized myth as it was fact-based science. They proceed to defend myth tenaciously, and are highly skeptical of anything that appears to threaten myth (like fact-based science). In other words, this disorder makes them think and behave in patterns diametrically opposed to the accepted definition of skepticism. 

 

It isn't easy swimming against the tide and being a genuine skeptic and critical thinker. The chances are good that you will alienate your friends, family, and business associates. Peer pressure is the main reason why bad ideas like religion and racism continually replicate themselves. 

 

 

[older]

13 minutes ago, Blood said:

 

...

 

Peer pressure is the main reason why bad ideas like religion and racism continually replicate themselves. 

 

 

 

  ^ ^ ^