Visions?

[megasamurai]

This is a topic I hear about a lot in Christian miracle stories. I am sure you are familiar with the idea of visions (or hallucinations). There is talk of a supposed mass exodus of Muslims towards Christianity because they have hallucinated the cross. Are these hallucinations caused by a subconscious disillusionment with Islam? Also, are most "visions" actually just mental images people picture in their heads rather than true visions? We have mental images in our heads all the time. A true vision should be something right in front of you like its actually there. A true vision is probably a sign of something seriously wrong. Has anyone here had a hallucination interpreted as a vision? Any firsthand explanations of the phenomena? How was it like? How do you look back upon the experience? 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

That is one that I have not experienced, though I have had a very clear voice on a very few occasions. The only thing I've seen were the "stars" before my eyes after a particularly moving song. I was sitting and recalling a song about the 9/11 attack on the towers (from the perspective of someone in the towers) called "Falling". I sat there weeping and when I opened my eyes I was surrounded by little white lights moving all around me for about 10 seconds. I could say that these were spirits of those in the crash, or simply low blood pressure since I've seen the lights at other times when I suddenly exert myself. I've also seen the "blue sky sprites" which are white blood cells that we see in the retina when looking at a bright blank area, like the sky or even an overcast sky, or computer monitor. They have a very similar movement to the little white lights, so may be related since pressure on the eye tends to be interpreted by the brain as light.

 

I don't know why that song is so compelling for me, but even now just thinking about it makes me start to cry. It has never been published, but I heard the composer sing it back in voice school. 

 

As to what visions are, the mind is capable of dreaming while awake and so seeing something like a movie playing out in front of us isn't that difficult to imagine. And if the subconscious thinks something is particularly important, it can bring those thoughts to the foreground. I had a sleeping dream once where my subconscious created a fascinating and creative story for me, because it was working out part of my deconversion and needed me to react and tell it what was important and what I really thought and felt, and may have been telling me what it felt was important. So when some people have a sudden conclusion that a god-story is compelling for survival/life, I can see how the mind would create a compelling situation for them and generate a vision.

[megasamurai]

Weird lights and shapes are common hallucinations. Complete religious visions, such as seeing Mary and/or Jesus seems more rare. Visions are major parts of miracle claims, but it is hard to find a firsthand account of this sensation. Is it possible that none of us here have ever hallucinated a vision? 

[yunea]

I hallucinated that my pet snails were flying around the room, twice. My medication needed adjusting. 

 

Never had a religious vision, only extremely vivid mental imagery in trance states.

 

ETA: I did have tactile hallucinations though, really felt like someone I couldn't see was hugging me. I thought it was angels, now I know that I have a condition (DDNOS) and strange feelings like that aren't awfully uncommon with it. 

[megasamurai]

Non visual hallucinations? Interesting. Are those possibly more common than religious visions? Has anyone every prayed for a vision yet never got one?

[yunea]

I have no clue how common they are in the general population. They definitely aren't talked about as dramatically as visions are. It was very comforting, but it didn't contain any 'information' like visions are supposed to, other than a "I'm with you, we got this" type of feeling. Much later I learned it was practically me comforting myself. 

 

I definitely prayed for visions and to hear God's voice clearly. Neither worked the way people promised and described. I spoke in tongues though, and my hands would heat up when praying over people. I can still do both, but completely without the prayer component. 

[sdelsolray]

I suggest you review case studies published by psychiatrists concerning patients with "visions", as well as the associated neurological science dealing with similar phenomena.

 

Studying hearsay, non-rigorous accounts and inventions from biased Christians is a waste of time.

[megasamurai]

I am wondering if there have been any scientific studies on religious visions. Some people's testimonies of weird shit they experienced when they believed can be quite interesting so I don't consider hearing non-scientific accounts a total waste of time.

[Lucy]

On 11/17/2017 at 10:47 PM, megasamurai said:

There is talk of a supposed mass exodus of Muslims towards Christianity because they have hallucinated the cross.

 

Where have you seen this? Anytime I look into these stories it's someone converted and is trying to sell a book. I don't see mass stories of this. There are also Muslim versions of the same story where someone sees a message from Allah that worshiping Jesus is idolatry/polytheism and they convert to Islam.

[RogueScholar]

On 11/17/2017 at 9:47 PM, megasamurai said:

This is a topic I hear about a lot in Christian miracle stories. I am sure you are familiar with the idea of visions (or hallucinations). There is talk of a supposed mass exodus of Muslims towards Christianity because they have hallucinated the cross. Are these hallucinations caused by a subconscious disillusionment with Islam? Also, are most "visions" actually just mental images people picture in their heads rather than true visions? We have mental images in our heads all the time. A true vision should be something right in front of you like its actually there. A true vision is probably a sign of something seriously wrong. Has anyone here had a hallucination interpreted as a vision? Any firsthand explanations of the phenomena? How was it like? How do you look back upon the experience? 

 

Good day all. My apologies for the leave of absence. The college has been crazy and I've been working my way through the many committees that will approve or deny my application for tenure. Not to mention I've had a significant teaching load over the past year as our divisions transition and my direct management retires and is replaced by newer and less established folks. 

 

This is a tricky issue to discuss because it's so inherently subjective and very difficult to quantify. We've certainly been able to associate perfusion to areas of neuron cell bodies using contemporary imaging methodologies (fMRI) however. So, we know there are certainly changes in the brain that are well correlated to alterations in perception. Additionally, we have good methods for reliably reproducing phenomena that most would describe as hallucinatory or visual. 

 

First, we must understand the term "vision" or "hallucination" is very tricky to pin down. This can have several dimensions that cover all the classical senses (touch, taste, smell, vision and so on). However, more interesting may be the alteration in perception that results in reports of highly bizarre experiences. Concepts such as ego death are very interesting and don't fit into the classical narrative of having a vision.

 

In the spirit of disclosure, I will say that I've had a fair amount of experience with substances that are well known to cause perceptual alterations (mescaline, Peyote, DMT and Ayahuasca) over the past couple of years. Many of my experiences have been incredibly harrowing and difficult symbolic journeys of discovery. With that said, we must be incredibly careful about concluding these experiences have anything definitive to say about how the universe can be studied and understood. Unfortunately, in the times of antiquity I can understand how someone could use such an experience to develop a framework for viewing the universe (religion). 

 

Likewise, experiences of perceptual alteration are being examined with increasingly serious rigour and tentatively look to be associated with positive attributes such as rescuing people from severe states of depression, releaving the existencial anxiety associated with life threatening illness, treating PTSD and possibly treating certain types of substance abuse. 

[pantheory]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:47 PM, megasamurai said:

This is a topic I hear about a lot in Christian miracle stories. I am sure you are familiar with the idea of visions (or hallucinations). There is talk of a supposed mass exodus of Muslims towards Christianity because they have hallucinated the cross. Are these hallucinations caused by a subconscious disillusionment with Islam? Also, are most "visions" actually just mental images people picture in their heads rather than true visions? We have mental images in our heads all the time. A true vision should be something right in front of you like its actually there. A true vision is probably a sign of something seriously wrong. Has anyone here had a hallucination interpreted as a vision? Any firsthand explanations of the phenomena? How was it like? How do you look back upon the experience? 

 

One of the most famous purveyors of the value of "visions" were the oracles at Delphi in Greece. They existed for roughly 500 years from 700 BC to 200 BC. One of their most well known clients was Alexander the Great and his father Philip. The Oracle was believed to have visions of the future when in a drug induced state. Here are a couple of related stories.

 

The Oracle at Delphi stated that whoever could ride this horse would conquer the world, but despite many attempts neither Philip the king of Macedonia, nor any of his generals could mount the horse. His son, Alexander as a teenager, later to be called the Great, succeeded as he realized that the horse was afraid of his own shadow.

 

After Alexander became king he went to Delphi to ask whether he, Alexander, was the son of a god. The story goes that when Alexander was a boy he saw his mother making love to a snake and later as king he believed the snake was a god, reformed as a snake. The female oracles always talked in an ambiguous style, but Alexander interpreted her sayings in the affirmative, that yes, he Alexander was the son of Zeus.

 

My understandings, based upon readings, is that "visions" are based upon (usually temporary) variations of brain chemistry. My idea of it is that with altered brain chemistry the brain can make unusual neuron connections resulting in altered, and sometimes unreal perceptions of reality.