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Lyra

Why would a good God let some people be born into existences that are truly nothing but misery?

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In Christianity, when people have terrible traumas/tragedies in life, it's generally compared to Job and accompanied by statements like "God is making things harder for you now but they will be so much better later." Examples cited are often things like...you lose your job but it leads to a better one, or there's a family tragedy but then it brings the whole extended family together, or you come from an abusive childhood but then are inspired to a career of helping others, and so on. But in those examples, there's typically the assumption that the people involved are able to someday have mostly good lives despite the pain: living in a wealthy free country, having decent health (or a handicap they can still live happy lives with), having opportunity to move forward, etc.

 

But what about the people who are truly born into terrible, hellish lives? For instance: people in North Korea who spend their entire lives in Auschwitz-like prison camps because their grandparent rebelled against the government. Or the victims of human trafficking all over the world. Or the Untouchable castes in  India where someone is socially ostracized and forced to work jobs like cleaning inside the sewers, with little to no hope of escaping that fate. Or the starving kids in 3rd-world countries with horrible deformities and no resources to cure them, etc.

 

We always hear of inspirational stories of people who came from awful backgrounds of hardship, and it's wonderful that those people could overcome it. But many can't. And for the ones that will never have a chance or who will never find comfort or happiness, why would an "all good God" sentence some people to being born into lives that are worse than having never been born?

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Those are very important questions that I used to ask a lot. Of course my life is nothing like that of an Indian sewer cleaner or a starving kid with malaria, but my family was plagued with so many problems (financial, health, location...) that it was extremely difficult to to accept that there is no bigger plan to it.

 

People just got ill, maybe unlucky, made bad choices, abused each other, that's it. That's the truth. 

 

I quietly asked "why? Why me?" so many times at church. People saw my agony and my dirty hair and weird clothes, and prophesied over me that God would make it all up to me and I'd be his weapon, a harbinger of joy. I guess I waited for that to happen for years, and it still crosses my mind sometimes. 

 

It's not a success story for me yet. I get told that with my past, being alive and free from superstition is huge success in itself, but I'm piss poor and can't currently work or study as I had my second burn-out this autumn (the first one made me jump headfirst into religion, and some two years later I ended up on this site). I'm a burden to the system and might not ever get to paint myself a big winner. 

 

But there is no one holding the strings for me. No one planning to make something out of me. It's my life to live, and everything I do win at is my own achievement. 

 

And at the end, that brings me more peace than painting everything "good for my growth" did. Sometimes shit is just shit, and wrong is just wrong. 

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It depends on your definition of "good" and "god". Many Christians says that whatever God does and allows is good, thereby allowing all suffering it be good. However this is dishonest in my opinion.

 

Good is generally accepted that which increases our happiness or eases our suffering.

 

Sam Harris in a Debate with W L Craig gave a very good rebuttal to the idea God is good - excerpts below but you can read the whole thing here, or watch the video below:

 

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Sam-Harris-The-Obscenity-of-Faith

 

"Any god who would allow children by the millions to suffer and die in this way and their parents to grieve in this way, either can do nothing to help them or doesn't care to. He is therefore either impotent or evil." - Sam Harris

 

Whenever anyone says God is good - he helped me buy a new house, I say that's great... perhaps his time would be better spent saving starving children in Africa?

 

What's more, these people, born in circumstances they cannot escape from, are destined for hell because they have never heard of or accepted Jesus as their savior. Some Christians get around this by saying that God would never judge someone who has never heard. Again this is not supported by the bible, especially as the bible says that the truth of god has been put in all human hearts by God. 

 

 

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Just now, end3 said:

It's sin Lyra...it's self imposed. 

 

 Pray tell me how people in NK self imposed this on themselves?

 

There are some people, sincerely believing in God, who live in hell on earth. What was their sin?

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"Why would a good God let some people be born into existences that are truly nothing but misery?"

 

You assume too much.  You assume this God exists in the first place.  Your questions contain this premise, front and center.  Believers' apologetics also assume it.  Try analyzing reality without that assumption.  

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40 minutes ago, end3 said:

It's sin Lyra...it's self imposed. 

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

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Guest end3
1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

Well, if we assume a moral standard, the Bible, and look at the consequences of sin, yeah, it seems demonstrable....

 

And given we are so far removed from the original....there is no telling where society plots vs. the assumed standard/Standard.

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7 hours ago, end3 said:

It's sin Lyra...it's self imposed. 

 

This is false.  A reading of the book of Genesis clearly shows this.

 

According to scripture the miseries of disease, deformity and death currently being suffered, not only by the North Koreans, but also by the entire human race, were the result of ONLY Adam and Eve's actions.  Not the actions of any succeeding generations of humans.  So what is described is not the self-imposition of the consequences of sin by each succeeding generation upon themselves.   It's the imposition of the consequences of sin upon every generation by God.  The consequences of the actions of just two people being imposed by God upon everyone else.  Thousands of generations, then unborn, have been made to suffer the consequences of actions they had no part in.  God's cursed not just Adam and Eve, but their all their unborn children and descendants.

 

It's another falsehood to say that every generation imposes disease, deformity and death upon itself by not believing in the God of the Bible.

Scripture clearly shows that even if everyone in the world were born-again of the holy spirit and lived as Christians, God would still not lift the curse that he set in place in the garden of Eden.  The lifting of God's curse doesn't take place until the end of days, when the saved are permitted to eat from the Tree of Life.

 

 

Revelation 22 :  1 - 5.

 

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb  

down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.  

No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 

They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

 

 

So, sin and it's consequences (God's curse - causing human disease, deformity and death) will not be lifted from us by everyone becoming Christians and believing in the Bible.

That is not scriptural.   That is false.  That is heresy.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

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Romans 8:19-23 New International Version (NIV)

 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 

23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 

 

Creation was subject to frustration (leading to bondage to decay) not by it's own choice, but by God's choice.

God is the creator, but we are the created.  So it was always God's will and choice to impose death and disease upon us.  It was never our choice.  Therefore, we do not impose death and disease upon ourselves because of our sin.

 

God cursed us all and we live under his curse, suffering according to his choice - not ours.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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"if we assume a moral standard, the Bible..."

 

hahahahahahaha, etc.

 

I really can't believe that people like you exist on a forum like this for any reason but to troll.

 

"The Bible"... what a gigantic, asinine assumption you make when you say "The Bible" is your "moral standard".

 

I've asked this question SO many times, and I've never gotten an answer, let alone a satisfactory one:

 

What makes YOUR version of a corner of a part of a religious movement that is barely 100 years old THE correct one, so much so that your understanding of "The Bible" is such that we all may (and must) accept it as a "moral standard"?

 

What about the self-professed Christian groups in the world whose beliefs are such that people with ideas like yours are heretics? What about people who never have interpreted the Bible the way you do, and never will, because your version of belief answers questions that they've never asked?

 

Why, too, is YOUR accepted version of "The Bible" the correct one, and not the Catholic one, the Orthodox one, the Set-Apart-Name-Messianic-Hebrew version, etc?

 

Come on... you think you're bringing your little truck to our sandbox, when what you're really doing is making vroom-vroom noises with it while you're sitting in the middle of a highway.

It's only a matter of time before you're puree on the grill of a speeding tractor-trailer.

 

Go troll the other "true believers" who are getting it wrong so much that YOUR version will help them. We gave up on your crap ages ago.

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18 hours ago, end3 said:

It's sin Lyra...it's self imposed. 

 

18 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

16 hours ago, end3 said:

Well, if we assume a moral standard, the Bible, and look at the consequences of sin, yeah, it seems demonstrable....

 

And given we are so far removed from the original....there is no telling where society plots vs. the assumed standard/Standard.

 

Your assumptions only demonstrate what you believe.  I thought you already knew that.  Apparently not.

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Guest end3
8 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

 

 

Your assumptions only demonstrate what you believe.  I thought you already knew that.  Apparently not.

No.  I can look at behaviors, i.e. stealing, murder, etc. and measure consequences.  What I think we are witnessing, because of our relatively recent and improved ability to store and recall history as data, we are more able to discern how our behaviors/actions were affecting society.....the consequences of certain agendas proving whether they did or didn't hold water over time.  I think we may then assess the agenda or moral as true or untrue by the tendency of society to move away from, but then back to, that behavior....supporting life. 

 

So it's like a portion of the space time continuum is being stored....yielding trends......what we believe to be morally true vs. actions over time.

 

This then is more than belief.  Please notice how they are throwing Bill Clinton under the bus atm.  This is a decent example....their morality was with him at one time and has now turned towards his actions being immoral. 

 

Try to access the imagination portion of your condescending self so you won't make such errant statements before you put your fingers to the keyboard.

 

 

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Guest end3
8 hours ago, L.B. said:

"if we assume a moral standard, the Bible..."

 

hahahahahahaha, etc.

 

I really can't believe that people like you exist on a forum like this for any reason but to troll.

 

"The Bible"... what a gigantic, asinine assumption you make when you say "The Bible" is your "moral standard".

 

I've asked this question SO many times, and I've never gotten an answer, let alone a satisfactory one:

 

What makes YOUR version of a corner of a part of a religious movement that is barely 100 years old THE correct one, so much so that your understanding of "The Bible" is such that we all may (and must) accept it as a "moral standard"?

 

What about the self-professed Christian groups in the world whose beliefs are such that people with ideas like yours are heretics? What about people who never have interpreted the Bible the way you do, and never will, because your version of belief answers questions that they've never asked?

 

Why, too, is YOUR accepted version of "The Bible" the correct one, and not the Catholic one, the Orthodox one, the Set-Apart-Name-Messianic-Hebrew version, etc?

 

Come on... you think you're bringing your little truck to our sandbox, when what you're really doing is making vroom-vroom noises with it while you're sitting in the middle of a highway.

It's only a matter of time before you're puree on the grill of a speeding tractor-trailer.

 

Go troll the other "true believers" who are getting it wrong so much that YOUR version will help them. We gave up on your crap ages ago.

LB, your truck is full of ego-filled, condescending, arrogant, prideful humans speeding towards a wreck itself.  Granted there have been people that helped load this truck that are responsible as well, but you're so full of shit, you can't think of anything to do other than run over people in you path now.  Wonderfully dangerous, you and your truck....but typical and common as the cargo.

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You believe in magic fruit trees and magic boats and talking animals and I'M "full of shit"?

 

You've hung around this forum for ages, modifying your angle and trying to peddle your bullshit in more ways than a snake-oil salesman.

 

Answer my question, asshole. What makes YOUR version of ANYTHING the one that people must accept as the assumed "true" one?

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  10 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

 

 

Your assumptions only demonstrate what you believe.  I thought you already knew that.  Apparently not.

No.  I can look at behaviors, i.e. stealing, murder, etc. and measure consequences.  What I think we are witnessing, because of our relatively recent and improved ability to store and recall history as data, we are more able to discern how our behaviors/actions were affecting society.....the consequences of certain agendas proving whether they did or didn't hold water over time.  I think we may then assess the agenda or moral as true or untrue by the tendency of society to move away from, but then back to, that behavior....supporting life. 

 

So it's like a portion of the space time continuum is being stored....yielding trends......what we believe to be morally true vs. actions over time.

 

This then is more than belief.  Please notice how they are throwing Bill Clinton under the bus atm.  This is a decent example....their morality was with him at one time and has now turned towards his actions being immoral. 

 

Try to access the imagination portion of your condescending self so you won't make such errant statements before you put your fingers to the keyboard.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What's your Biblical justification for looking at these behaviors, End?

 

I know that you have this abiding interest in the generational sin, but if you go down that road, as a Christian you need to have a Biblical justification for doing so.

 

If you don't have a Biblical justification, then your focus on generational sin is non-Biblical and un-Christian.   It's heresy.

 

I've already demonstrated from scripture that each generation is does not bring the penalties for sin upon themselves or upon succeeding generations.

 

So, please justify yourself your looking at these behaviors, from the Bible.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

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Guest end3
7 hours ago, L.B. said:

You believe in magic fruit trees and magic boats and talking animals and I'M "full of shit"?

 

You've hung around this forum for ages, modifying your angle and trying to peddle your bullshit in more ways than a snake-oil salesman.

 

Answer my question, asshole. What makes YOUR version of ANYTHING the one that people must accept as the assumed "true" one?

Here's an example even you might comprehend.  If I am trying to change a unique color to a common color, the colors necessary to do so would be slightly different.  Now, pull you head out and think.

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  7 hours ago, L.B. said:

You believe in magic fruit trees and magic boats and talking animals and I'M "full of shit"?

 

You've hung around this forum for ages, modifying your angle and trying to peddle your bullshit in more ways than a snake-oil salesman.

 

Answer my question, asshole. What makes YOUR version of ANYTHING the one that people must accept as the assumed "true" one?

Here's an example even you might comprehend.  If I am trying to change a unique color to a common color, the colors necessary to do so would be slightly different.  Now, pull you head out and think.

 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Your question cannot be properly answered End, because you haven't defined two of the conditions you've put into it.
 
Until we know how you are defining 'unique color' and 'common color', nobody can answer your question.
 
If you did this inadvertently, then you need to reword your question and define it's conditions properly.
 
If you did this deliberately,  then shame on you for setting up a loaded question.
 
 

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5 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:
  10 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

 

 

 

Your assumptions only demonstrate what you believe.  I thought you already knew that.  Apparently not.

No.  I can look at behaviors, i.e. stealing, murder, etc. and measure consequences.  What I think we are witnessing, because of our relatively recent and improved ability to store and recall history as data, we are more able to discern how our behaviors/actions were affecting society.....the consequences of certain agendas proving whether they did or didn't hold water over time.  I think we may then assess the agenda or moral as true or untrue by the tendency of society to move away from, but then back to, that behavior....supporting life. 

 

So it's like a portion of the space time continuum is being stored....yielding trends......what we believe to be morally true vs. actions over time.

 

This then is more than belief.  Please notice how they are throwing Bill Clinton under the bus atm.  This is a decent example....their morality was with him at one time and has now turned towards his actions being immoral. 

 

Try to access the imagination portion of your condescending self so you won't make such errant statements before you put your fingers to the keyboard.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What's your Biblical justification for looking at these behaviors, End?

 

I know that you have this abiding interest in the generational sin, but if you go down that road, as a Christian you need to have a Biblical justification for doing so.

 

If you don't have a Biblical justification, then your focus on generational sin is non-Biblical and un-Christian.   It's heresy.

 

I've already demonstrated from scripture that each generation is does not bring the penalties for sin upon themselves or upon succeeding generations.

 

So, please justify yourself your looking at these behaviors, from the Bible.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

Bumped for End3's attention.

 

Please answer the highlighted question.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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37 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

Bumped for End3's attention.

 

Please answer the highlighted question.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

How about the 10 commandments

 

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  2 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

Bumped for End3's attention.

 

Please answer the highlighted question.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

How about the 10 commandments

.

.

.

Yes, how about them, End?

 

Do they lift the curses God placed upon everyone in Genesis 3 : 16 - 19 ?

 

Curses that God said he wouldn't lift until the End of Days?

 

Do the 10 commandments lift God's curses, End?

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On 19/11/2017 at 6:41 AM, Lyra said:

In Christianity, when people have terrible traumas/tragedies in life, it's generally compared to Job and accompanied by statements like "God is making things harder for you now but they will be so much better later." Examples cited are often things like...you lose your job but it leads to a better one, or there's a family tragedy but then it brings the whole extended family together, or you come from an abusive childhood but then are inspired to a career of helping others, and so on. But in those examples, there's typically the assumption that the people involved are able to someday have mostly good lives despite the pain: living in a wealthy free country, having decent health (or a handicap they can still live happy lives with), having opportunity to move forward, etc.

 

But what about the people who are truly born into terrible, hellish lives? For instance: people in North Korea who spend their entire lives in Auschwitz-like prison camps because their grandparent rebelled against the government. Or the victims of human trafficking all over the world. Or the Untouchable castes in  India where someone is socially ostracized and forced to work jobs like cleaning inside the sewers, with little to no hope of escaping that fate. Or the starving kids in 3rd-world countries with horrible deformities and no resources to cure them, etc.

 

We always hear of inspirational stories of people who came from awful backgrounds of hardship, and it's wonderful that those people could overcome it. But many can't. And for the ones that will never have a chance or who will never find comfort or happiness, why would an "all good God" sentence some people to being born into lives that are worse than having never been born?

Whatever ever created the universe doesn't seem to care about these circumstances either.

 

It wouldn't matter if there's a god or not, you're in the same predicament when it comes to the question "Why is there suffering?"

 

 

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On 11/20/2017 at 9:06 AM, end3 said:

How about the 10 commandments

 

 

The 10 Commandments - HA!  Here is something to think about from ConsiderTheSource in the thread referenced below:

 

 

Quote

 

The moral code we can create for ourselves far exceeds the ones made by the indoctrinaters/programmers.  Here is mine:

 

I care about facts, empathy, and treating all people fairly.

 

These ten words are far more potent for me than any ten commandments.

 

 

 

 

 

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  On 20/11/2017 at 1:28 PM, bornagainathiest said:
  2 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

Bumped for End3's attention.

 

Please answer the highlighted question.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

End3 wrote...

 

How about the 10 commandments

.

.

.

Yes, how about them, End?

 

Do they lift the curses God placed upon everyone in Genesis 3 : 16 - 19 ?

 

Curses that God said he wouldn't lift until the End of Days?

 

Do the 10 commandments lift God's curses, End?

.

.

.

Bumped for End3's attention!

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On 11/18/2017 at 6:52 PM, end3 said:

It's sin Lyra...it's self imposed. 

A baby has no sin. And no choice about the living hell it's born into.

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