Why would a good God let some people be born into existences that are truly nothing but misery?

[LogicalFallacy]

10 minutes ago, Orbit said:

A baby has no sin. And no choice about the living hell it's born into.

 

End gets his ideas from bible verses such as these

 

Psalm 51:5New International Version (NIV)

⁵ Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Christians use passages like these to justify the Christian position that we are all born sinners and need saving.

Choice and situation is irrelevant to Christian doctrine.

 

[Guest end3]

Adam and Eve broke trust with God.  It's somewhat that simple.  Predestination, free will, yada yada, it doesn't matter.  They broke trust.  You will notice these people in your lives.  Those that never break your trust regardless of some bad things and those that will.....the wide vs. narrow gate.  Be the ones who don't break trust.

[bornagainathiest]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

Adam and Eve broke trust with God.  It's somewhat that simple.  Predestination, free will, yada yada, it doesn't matter.  They broke trust.  You will notice these people in your lives.  Those that never break your trust regardless of some bad things and those that will.....the wide vs. narrow gate.  Be the ones who don't break trust.

 

If you're going to talk about Adam and Eve, End...

 

...then please answer my pending questions about them. 

.

.

.

End3 wrote...

 

How about the 10 commandments

.

.

.

Yes, how about them, End?

 

Do they lift the curses God placed upon everyone in Genesis 3 : 16 - 19 ?

 

Curses that God said he wouldn't lift until the End of Days?

 

Do the 10 commandments lift God's curses, End?

 

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

If you're going to talk about Adam and Eve, End...

 

...then please answer my pending questions about them. 

.

.

.

End3 wrote...

 

How about the 10 commandments

.

.

.

Yes, how about them, End?

 

Do they lift the curses God placed upon everyone in Genesis 3 : 16 - 19 ?

 

Curses that God said he wouldn't lift until the End of Days?

 

Do the 10 commandments lift God's curses, End?

 

I believe the commandments are a set of general rules given humanity ignorant and incapable of executing some standard morality.

[bornagainathiest]

Posted 6 minutes ago

  1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

If you're going to talk about Adam and Eve, End...

 

...then please answer my pending questions about them. 

.

.

.

End3 wrote...

 

How about the 10 commandments

.

.

.

Yes, how about them, End?

 

Do they lift the curses God placed upon everyone in Genesis 3 : 16 - 19 ?

 

Curses that God said he wouldn't lift until the End of Days?

 

Do the 10 commandments lift God's curses, End?

 

I believe the commandments are a set of general rules given humanity ignorant and incapable of executing some standard morality.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But what would be the point of obeying them when they can do nothing to alleviate the misery of human existence?

 

That misery began in Eden, with God's curses and won't end until God lifts His curses, at the End of Days.

 

End, please note that I'm not asking WHAT you believe about the 10 commandments.

 

No, instead I'm asking you to explain HOW obeying them undoes the human misery of existence, which began in Genesis and which ends in Revelation.

 

How?

 

 

[Guest end3]

11 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

Posted 6 minutes ago

  1 hour ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

If you're going to talk about Adam and Eve, End...

 

...then please answer my pending questions about them. 

.

.

.

End3 wrote...

 

How about the 10 commandments

.

.

.

Yes, how about them, End?

 

Do they lift the curses God placed upon everyone in Genesis 3 : 16 - 19 ?

 

Curses that God said he wouldn't lift until the End of Days?

 

Do the 10 commandments lift God's curses, End?

 

I believe the commandments are a set of general rules given humanity ignorant and incapable of executing some standard morality.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But what would be the point of obeying them when they can do nothing to alleviate the misery of human existence?

 

That misery began in Eden, with God's curses and won't end until God lifts His curses, at the End of Days.

 

End, please note that I'm not asking WHAT you believe about the 10 commandments.

 

No, instead I'm asking you to explain HOW obeying them undoes the human misery of existence, which began in Genesis and which ends in Revelation.

 

How?

 

 

I think they give us guidelines before we have true understanding of the reasoning.  Bill Clinton comes to mind.  His affairs at one point via the popular opinion were "his own business" as long as it "doesn't hurt anyone else".  Now look at the backlash to this temporary understanding.  Again, no wonder all these Hollywood leftists hate the old white man in power....hell, they were sexually abusing the women. 

 

In other words, when we get older and more wise, we then are able to look at the rules and say ah, I get it now...

[bornagainathiest]

8 minutes ago, end3 said:

I think they give us guidelines before we have true understanding of the reasoning.  Bill Clinton comes to mind.  His affairs at one point via the popular opinion were "his own business" as long as it "doesn't hurt anyone else".  Now look at the backlash to this temporary understanding.  Again, no wonder all these Hollywood leftists hate the old white man in power....hell, they were sexually abusing the women. 

 

In other words, when we get older and more wise, we then are able to look at the rules and say ah, I get it now...

 

There's no point in following any guidelines if you don't get any benefit from doing so.

 

Being wiser, but still suffering God's curses doesn't seem like any kind of benefit to me.

 

How about the curses God inflicted on all of us, End?

 

You know... disease, deformity and death.  

 

 

How does following the 10 commandments undo the curse God placed on this child?

 

 

 

 

[Guest end3]

57 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

There's no point in following any guidelines if you don't get any benefit from doing so.

 

Being wiser, but still suffering God's curses doesn't seem like any kind of benefit to me.

 

How about the curses God inflicted on all of us, End?

 

You know... disease, deformity and death.  

 

 

How does following the 10 commandments undo the curse God placed on this child?

 

 

 

 

Where's the certainty that this isn't a result of man's sin?

[Guest end3]

And why do we have prophylactic practices?  Why BAA, why? 

[LogicalFallacy]

5 hours ago, end3 said:

Adam and Eve broke trust with God. 

 

So you believe in a literal Adam and Eve not a metaphorical Adam and Eve?

 

 

[Guest end3]

4 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So you believe in a literal Adam and Eve not a metaphorical Adam and Eve?

 

 

I lean towards myth LF.

[LogicalFallacy]

24 minutes ago, end3 said:

I lean towards myth LF.

How then do you reconcile the concept of original sin if there wasn't an original Adam and Eve to sin?

 

It makes a statement like "Adam and Eve broke trust with God" a non sequitur. We might as well discuss whether Batman can beat Superman.

[Guest end3]

4 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

How then do you reconcile the concept of original sin if there wasn't an original Adam and Eve to sin?

 

It makes a statement like "Adam and Eve broke trust with God" a non sequitur. We might as well discuss whether Batman can beat Superman.

myth

miTH/  

noun

noun: myth; plural noun: myths

1. 1.

   a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

[LogicalFallacy]

4 minutes ago, end3 said:

myth

miTH/  

noun

noun: myth; plural noun: myths

1. 1.

   a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

So you think that the Garden of Eden story is basically a myth that explains the human condition?

 

Why would you give this myth any more credence than the thousands of other myths that explain the same thing... some of them in better fashion.

[Guest end3]

5 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So you think that the Garden of Eden story is basically a myth that explains the human condition?

 

Why would you give this myth any more credence than the thousands of other myths that explain the same thing... some of them in better fashion.

Let's please talk about the point I was making....trust....rather than running around in a maze....if you don't mind. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yes.  Let's talk about trust.  How can we trust in a god who condemns us for a metaphorical sin committed by two mythical people?  And more to the point, why would we?

[LogicalFallacy]

36 minutes ago, end3 said:

Let's please talk about the point I was making....trust....rather than running around in a maze....if you don't mind. 

 

I was actually trying to determine your point.

 

You seem, and I've noticed this before, to make a leap between the human condition and things we can observe to therefore God.

 

Take your statement above "Where's the certainty that this isn't a result of man's sin? "

 

Isn't this jumping the gun? Asking the question backwards? Given what we know isn't it more reasonable to ask "Where's the certainty that this is a result of man's sin?"

 

Its like when you ask for evidence of God and someone says "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist" Well I know that, but you are approaching the topic backwards. You should be asking what evidence that God does exist.

 

Same with sin.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Let's pretend that baby were the result of some man's sin.  Why should the baby suffer?  What kind of god would allow that?  Yes, it really does come down to trust.  Why should we trust god?

[bornagainathiest]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

Where's the certainty that this isn't a result of man's sin?

 

I'm not saying it isn't.

 

According to the Bible, this baby's suffering is the result of Adam and Eve's sin. 

 

It suffers because god laid a curse, not only on Adam and Eve, but also upon their descendants.  

 

But you replied to Lyra that suffering is a self-inflicted result of sin.

 

See the difference?

 

I'm holding to the Biblical line, that all such suffering is the result of god's curses.

 

You're saying that this baby inflicted this suffering upon itself.

 

Where's your Biblical justification for that?

 

 

 

[Guest end3]

45 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes.  Let's talk about trust.  How can we trust in a god who condemns us for a metaphorical sin committed by two mythical people?  And more to the point, why would we?

It makes sense to me in light of our experiences.  You know, we can forgive and work with people that make mistakes...in honesty, and ignorance.  But it's another story when there are those that willingly choose to break trust. 

 

To answer your question.......we don't know why other than looking at the lives we are given and asking ourselves....does it make sense to follow this story or not.  I'm willing to continue with belief if the evidence henceforth is viable.

[bornagainathiest]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

And why do we have prophylactic practices?  Why BAA, why? 

 

That baby's suffering is a result of god's curses, not anything it or it's parents did.

 

Unless you can show otherwise, from scripture?

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

Posted 2 hours ago

  3 hours ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

There's no point in following any guidelines if you don't get any benefit from doing so.

 

Being wiser, but still suffering God's curses doesn't seem like any kind of benefit to me.

 

How about the curses God inflicted on all of us, End?

 

You know... disease, deformity and death.  

 

 

How does following the 10 commandments undo the curse God placed on this child?

 

 

 

 

Where's the certainty that this isn't a result of man's sin?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now, you answered my question (highlighted) with a question.

 

I've responded and answered your new question.

 

So now it falls to you to answer my original question, End.

 

Please do so.

 

Here it is again.

 

How does following the 10 commandments undo the curse God placed on this child?

[Guest end3]

50 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I was actually trying to determine your point.

 

You seem, and I've noticed this before, to make a leap between the human condition and things we can observe to therefore God.

 

Take your statement above "Where's the certainty that this isn't a result of man's sin? "

 

Isn't this jumping the gun? Asking the question backwards? Given what we know isn't it more reasonable to ask "Where's the certainty that this is a result of man's sin?"

 

Its like when you ask for evidence of God and someone says "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist" Well I know that, but you are approaching the topic backwards. You should be asking what evidence that God does exist.

 

Same with sin.

No, BAA would be the first one to ask about "proof".  There are most likely mechanisms/reasons why this baby was born  as it was.  My question to him was what behaviors created this outcome.  He sure wanted to say,  "goddidit".

 

BECAUSE we also have physical things we may participate in that will change things for the "positive" if you will. 

 

 

[Guest end3]

6 minutes ago, bornagainathiest said:

 

I'm not saying it isn't.

 

According to the Bible, this baby's suffering is the result of Adam and Eve's sin. 

 

It suffers because god laid a curse, not only on Adam and Eve, but also upon their descendants.  

 

But you replied to Lyra that suffering is a self-inflicted result of sin.

 

See the difference?

 

I holding to the Biblical line, that all such suffering is the result of god's curses.

 

You're saying that this baby inflicted this suffering upon itself.

 

Where's your Biblical justification for that?

 

 

 

My question to you is, did God curse them before their behaviors?

[bornagainathiest]

Just now, end3 said:

My question to you is, did God curse them before their behaviors?

 

What does the Bible say?