Which Christian Behaviors Most Annoy Atheists?

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

See, in my mind, that makes god an abuser. He demands I believe in him and all that entails (worship, etc...) or I will be subjected to horrific punishment. In human law, this is called extortion and we send people to prison for it. Real love is freely given. The kind of love god demands comes under the veil of threat. Christians like to say he gives people a choice, but this isn't a real choice just like Vito Corleone didn't give the movie producer a real choice when he put a gun to his head and told him to sign a contract. 

You might even argue that you've freely chosen, but you still are left to contend with the rest of us who are not given that free choice and that speaks directly to the character of your god. 

I do not think God is an exthortioner at all. I will say, if I am wrong and I go to Hell, I believe in God and love Him. I believe in His love, grace, and mercy. 

 

I do not think Hell is punishment, rather a place for instruction and purgative. I think that if people really knew how much God loves them, they would believe. 

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, ContraBardus said:

 

You know, I actually do like Jesus as a character, but I don't know that I'd want to hang around him or anything. I don't believe for a moment that he was the son of God, and in fact the one in the Bible is likely nothing like the real man [if there was such a man at all, but that's another topic], but as a character in the Bible he was less dickish than most, but also a cheeky and sarcastic bastard with his apostles, who were comically inept and stupid at times. Pontius Pilate is another such character. There are actual contemporary writings about him from people who actually knew him and surviving Roman records regarding him, and how he acts in the Bible is definitely not how he would have really behaved.

 

Jesus was not without his flaws and was a very human character. Like the time he called the Cannanite woman a Dog. Which is not only a rather nasty insult culturally speaking, but was also something of a nasty racial slur regarding Gentiles at the time. A lot of apologists try to talk their way around this, jumping through all sorts of hoops, but Jesus was being a bit of a dick to someone he didn't view as an equal. He helped her, but not before he rubbed her face in the dirt and made her beg for it. That's not the only incident where he was less than divine, but it's a major one.

 

Anyway, the segment you've posted goes to show the contradictions in the Bible that have been previously mentioned, because most of the Bible says the opposite. That words and belief alone are not enough.

 

If you actually read this and understand the context of it, Jesus is basically teasing them for asking for specific things to do that would provide them favor with God. They were essentially asking for a shortcut or something easy they could do over and over that would make God like them. Here, Jesus is telling them that's not how it works.

 

Mostly the Bible rectifies this by way of directly tying faith to works. A true believer will act, where as a false one will only speak or even stand aside and do nothing. A false believer will misunderstand teachings like "turn the other cheek" and take that as permission to do nothing at all, when it doesn't really mean anything of the sort.

 

You seem to be trying your best to separate faith from acts to justify your beliefs about being passive and doing little or nothing.

 

What you posted here is a perfect example of cherry picking to justify yourself rather than actually adhering to what the book actually says.

 

You should really look into Eastern Religions, it seems like a much better fit for your philosophy. When I said that you've basically taken Taoism and Buddhism and have just slapped a Jesus sticker over the face of Buddha, I wasn't kidding.

 

Also, I do question whether or not such beliefs are really "harmless". Faith is often used to make major life decisions, and faith based on falsehoods creates a faulty world view that can lead to many poor decisions in life and bad reasoning that can have a negative impact on someone's life overall.

 

Also, a passive mindset where someone doesn't question anything has a severely negative impact on critical thinking skills. Making people vulnerable to manipulation and getting scammed. This is how televangelist make their living.

 

Just because it's not as severe as getting addicted to drugs, doesn't mean it's good for you. Cigarettes don't have the immediate negative impact on someone's health that heroine does, it can take decades before any negative health issues arise due to smoking, but that doesn't make them good for you either.

 

I also find it very telling that you'd use extreme examples such as substance abuse in regard to not having faith. I've met quite a few junkies, worked with a few, and have done some volunteer work that put me in contact with them, and all of them talked about God and Jesus constantly. Never have I met any other group who would ask me if I've been "saved" more often.

 

I also fail to see what exactly is wrong with being "promiscuous" on it's own, or what it has to do with being religious or not. It can be done responsibly and safely, doesn't necessarily mean not ever having a long term relationship in which one is faithful, and doesn't even really mean sleeping with anyone who is willing. It just means having sexual relations with more than one person over a period of time. Most people who are not in a relationship and actively trying to find one are somewhat promiscuous.

 

In fact, studies have shown that being highly religious causes a lack of proper sex education and contraception use, and the general stigma of anything sexual actually leads to more teen pregnancies, increases the spread of STDs, and puts more young people at risk. All of these things have much lower rates among the non-religious because they aren't so ignorant about or ashamed of their sexuality.

 

There's plenty of harm that can be caused by religion. Just because you aren't living at the bottom of societies barrel, doesn't mean it hasn't had a negative impact on you. The way you tried to tie a lack of faith to drug use and basically prostitution makes it pretty clear that it's feeding your ignorance at the least, and that's not a good thing.

 

An "at least I'm not..." attitude doesn't really justify or excuse other bad things.

 

If a rapist and murderer says "at least I don't eat my victims" it doesn't negate the negative impact of raping and murdering people. The fact that something is not worse than it is doesn't make it any better than it is either.

I can not explain to you the gospel of Grace, or why Jesus called the Canaanite a dog, it goes back to dispensationalism, which you would call jumping through hoops or mental gymnastics. 

 

I do not know what I could say to you to explain my beliefs. I assure you, there are many Christians who do not believe works are necessary for salvation- but are the result of people loving God and growing in Grace. 

 

There are Christians who believe works are necessary for maintaining salvation, sure- but not for obtaining salvation. 

 

You already said you do not like Paul. Dispensationalists believe the epistles of Paul are to us in this age of Grace. 

 

I meant promiscuity, drug abuse, and alcohol as methods to self medicate. Someone said I self medicated with Christianity. That is why I used these examples as they are the ways people who have been abused typically self medicate. 

 

Substance abusers probably DO talk more about Jesus. He always does mean more to people who have hit rock bottom. “He who

has been forgiven much, loves much”. 

 

 

[Margee]

On 12/8/2017 at 6:48 AM, PennySerenade said:

, but I would be way more depressed than I already am if I believed there was no Heaven. 

 

 

 

This. ^

 

I completely understand this. Facing the cold, hard facts of life was the single hardest thing I have ever had to deal with. Depression is why most people hang on, no matter what the holy books say. Dealing with depression all by yourself without the hope in god helping you is extremely hard. Believing gives one last chance at 'hoping' for better outcomes on earth and for oneself. The last ''anti-depressant pill'' (book) I read was by Bishop Carlton Pearson, ''The Gospel of Inclusion''. This book was my last hope.  He was a hard-core evangelist and dropped out because he hated the actual bible, couldn't preach it anymore and 'cherry picked' a whole bunch of verses trying to make sense of the bible. It's a wonderful concept, probably the 'happiest outcome' for all the people of the earth. But I knew too much already so I could not make the book and what he was saying into my heart. He just glossed over all the hard stuff (horrors of the bible) I have learned here on Ex-c.

 

But this book will help to save you if you are suffering from depression and want to hold on to the concept of Jesus. I have become an x-christian who understands why people have to hang on to their beliefs. 

 

I wish I could put those 'horses blinders' back on, but I can't go back. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Margee said:

 

This. ^

 

I completely understand this. Facing the cold, hard facts of life was the single hardest thing I have ever had to deal with. Depression is why most people hang on, no matter what the holy books say. Dealing with depression all by yourself without the hope in god helping you is extremely hard. Believing gives one last chance at 'hoping' for better outcomes on earth and for oneself. The last ''anti-depressant pill'' (book) I read was by Bishop Carlton Pearson, ''The Gospel of Inclusion''. This book was my last hope.  He was a hard-core evangelist and dropped out because he hated the actual bible, couldn't preach it anymore and 'cherry picked' a whole bunch of verses trying to make sense of the bible. It's a wonderful concept, probably the 'happiest outcome' for all the people of the earth. But I knew too much already so I could not make the book and what he was saying into my heart. He just glossed over all the hard stuff (horrors of the bible) I have learned here on Ex-c.

 

But this book will help to save you if you are suffering from depression and want to hold on to the concept of Jesus. I have become an x-christian who understands why people have to hang on to their beliefs. 

 

I wish I could put those 'horses blinders' back on, but I can't go back. 

 

 

 

Thank you, you are very kind. My depression is due to an unrequited love relationship, not my faith or anything. My faith has actually been my bulwark in this relationship.

[Vigile]

1 hour ago, PennySerenade said:

I do not think God is an exthortioner at all. I will say, if I am wrong and I go to Hell, I believe in God and love Him. I believe in His love, grace, and mercy. 

 

I do not think Hell is punishment, rather a place for instruction and purgative. I think that if people really knew how much God loves them, they would believe. 

 

 

Well, like someone else pointed out to you, what you believe doesn't change reality. The very definition you provided makes him an extortionist.  Someone standing before a judge can't just say "you're honor, I didn't threaten them with punishment, I threatened them with purgatory to get them to change their ways" and get the charges dropped. Their very explanation of the situation would convict them right there. 

IOW, it doesn't matter whether or not hell is called a punishment or purgatory, the fact remains that it is leverage to keep believers believing and a threat to non believers to change their tune. This is not the definition of love, but the definition to a T of a disfunctional relationship at best and violent criminal behavior at worst. Unfortunately, there is just no way around this conclusion. 

[Margee]

13 minutes ago, Vigile said:

IOW, it doesn't matter whether or not hell is called a punishment or purgatory, the fact remains that it is leverage to keep believers believing and a threat to non believers to change their tune. This is not the definition of love, but the definition to a T of a disfunctional relationship at best and violent criminal behavior at worst. Unfortunately, there is just no way around this conclusion. 

4

I just threw this book in the garbage a couple of months ago Vigile. I can be honest with you. I sat on the side of my bed and read through it for a while wanting so much for it to make some sense to me. If it wasn't for Ex-c, I would be one that could get sucked back in... but as I keep saying, I know too much now.

 

[Vigile]

12 minutes ago, Margee said:

I just threw this book in the garbage a couple of months ago Vigile. I can be honest with you. I sat on the side of my bed and read through it for a while wanting so much for it to make some sense to me. If it wasn't for Ex-c, I would be one that could get sucked back in... but as I keep saying, I know too much now.

 

 

The important thing is that you are in control, not being manipulated by threats and false promises. 

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

Well, like someone else pointed out to you, what you believe doesn't change reality. The very definition you provided makes him an extortionist.  Someone standing before a judge can't just say "you're honor, I didn't threaten them with punishment, I threatened them with purgatory to get them to change their ways" and get the charges dropped. Their very explanation of the situation would convict them right there. 

IOW, it doesn't matter whether or not hell is called a punishment or purgatory, the fact remains that it is leverage to keep believers believing and a threat to non believers to change their tune. This is not the definition of love, but the definition to a T of a disfunctional relationship at best and violent criminal behavior at worst. Unfortunately, there is just no way around this conclusion. 

I am not explaining it well, of course. Hell does not keep me believing. I would believe no matter what. I know God loves me and He is with me. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Margee said:

I just threw this book in the garbage a couple of months ago Vigile. I can be honest with you. I sat on the side of my bed and read through it for a while wanting so much for it to make some sense to me. If it wasn't for Ex-c, I would be one that could get sucked back in... but as I keep saying, I know too much now.

 

Pardon me for asking this- but if you wish you could go back to faith, why would you discourage others from having faith?

[Margee]

13 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Pardon me for asking this- but if you wish you could go back to faith, why would you discourage others from having faith?

I'm afraid that I am one that needs evidence now my dear. I don't even try to deconvert people because I know myself what 'belief'  was like. It gave me hope. So I know that hope is a wonderful thing and it's the only way for some to even be able to make it here on earth. I talk to my friends all the time about this. They tell me they couldn't make it without a belief in god. My hope now is in truth. As hard as it is, I prefer to believe in things that are proved. I've seen religions and the different beliefs on this earth fuck this whole world up. I'm too old now to believe in the fairytales.......

 

Reality has answered all my questions about life. The invisible god never did that for me...

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Margee said:

I'm afraid that I am one that needs evidence now my dear. I don't even try to deconvert people because I know myself what 'belief'  was like. It gave me hope. So I know that hope is a wonderful thing and it's the only way for some to even be able to make it here on earth. I talk to my friends all the time about this. They tell me they couldn't make it without a belief in god. My hope now is in truth. As hard as it is, I prefer to believe in things that are proved. I've seen religions and the different beliefs on this earth fuck this whole world up. I'm too old now to believe in the fairytales.......

Thank you for answering. I guess I kind of wonder why people would wish to go back to faith, and simultaneously tell people their faith is stardust and moonbeams. It sort of sounds like “dog in the manger” sort of thing. 

 

It is similar to this: I derived much pleasure in believing in fairies and dolls that come to life when your back is turned. I wish I could believe in living dolls again. (I do believe in fairies, but that they will be in Heaven, not here).

 

If my niece believed in living dolls, I would not tell her otherwise. On the contrary, I’d probably encourage her because I’d know she’d find out the truth soon enough. I would foster the magic as long as possible. 

 

I suppose if a person thinks faith is dangerous to society, that is another matter, of course. 

[Margee]

15 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Thank you for answering. I guess I kind of wonder why people would wish to go back to faith, and simultaneously tell people their faith is stardust and moonbeams. It sort of sounds like “dog in the manger” sort of thing. 

 

It is similar to this: I derived much pleasure in believing in fairies and dolls that come to life when your back is turned. I wish I could believe in living dolls again. (I do believe in fairies, but that they will be in Heaven, not here).

 

If my niece believed in living dolls, I would not tell her otherwise. On the contrary, I’d probably encourage her because I’d know she’d find out the truth soon enough. I would foster the magic as long as possible. 

 

I suppose if a person thinks faith is dangerous to society, that is another matter, of course. 

I always adored magical things. I have a huge imagination. I loved believing in all happy endings.

 

Tell me how you feel about all of the terrible sufferings on earth? How do you explain rape, child abuse, men and woman abuse, murder, torture, sickness, cancer, fires on earth, earthquakes, tsunamis and the list of a million other horrible things? Why does your god not help these situations.? I probably already know what kind of answer you are going to give me....but tell me your version anyway, please?

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Margee said:

I always adored magical things. I have a huge imagination. I loved believing in all happy endings.

 

Tell me how you feel about all of the terrible sufferings on earth? How do you explain rape, child abuse, men and woman abuse, murder, torture, sickness, cancer, fires on earth, earthquakes, tsunamis and the list of a million other horrible things? Why does your god not help these situations.? I probably already know what kind of answer you are going to give me....but tell me your version anyway, please?

They are caused by Satan and not God. He has permitted Satan to have dominion over this Earth. Why, I don’t know. I think it is bigger than humans, to tell the truth. I know since God is good, He does not send or cause bad things. 

[Travi]

3 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

They are caused by Satan and not God. He has permitted Satan to have dominion over this Earth. Why, I don’t know. I think it is bigger than humans, to tell the truth. I know since God is good, He does not send or cause bad things. 

You are, again, stating that God is allowing these things to happen. Whether he "sends or causes" is irrelevant. You are just a typical apologetic, saying anything and everything to let your god off the hook. 

 

By supposedly allowing Satan to have dominion, to allow these things to happen, he is malevolent. End of story. No loving god would allow these things to happen. 

 

I know I'm talking to a brick wall when I say this, but I just cannot stay silent anymore. We have found a match for ironhorse in terms of sheer apologetics. 

[midniterider]

9 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

They are caused by Satan and not God. He has permitted Satan to have dominion over this Earth. Why, I don’t know. I think it is bigger than humans, to tell the truth. I know since God is good, He does not send or cause bad things. 

 

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

God seems to allow his children to get shot up in his own house. https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/texas-church-shooting

 

 

[Margee]

25 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

They are caused by Satan and not God. He has permitted Satan to have dominion over this Earth. Why, I don’t know. I think it is bigger than humans, to tell the truth. I know since God is good, He does not send or cause bad things. 

I kinda' thought that's what you were going to say.  Add another 'magical' character to blame. 

 

I was really hoping you might come up with something better......

[LogicalFallacy]

On 09/12/2017 at 6:15 AM, PennySerenade said:

I am not an apologist, so can only say what I believe to be true. 

 

Yes, I actually believe in Santa Claus as a spirit but also as a real person in Heaven. 

I'm not wanting you to go into apologetics... by definition apologists will defend a position even when they know they are wrong. 

 

I want your thoughts. Go back and read my post about the problem of evil. How do you reconcile this logical contradiction? I personally was unable to.

 

As for Santa that's a side topic at the moment so I'll leave that.

[ContraBardus]

22 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I can not explain to you the gospel of Grace, or why Jesus called the Canaanite a dog, it goes back to dispensationalism, which you would call jumping through hoops or mental gymnastics. 

 

I do not know what I could say to you to explain my beliefs. I assure you, there are many Christians who do not believe works are necessary for salvation- but are the result of people loving God and growing in Grace. 

 

There are Christians who believe works are necessary for maintaining salvation, sure- but not for obtaining salvation. 

 

You already said you do not like Paul. Dispensationalists believe the epistles of Paul are to us in this age of Grace. 

 

I meant promiscuity, drug abuse, and alcohol as methods to self medicate. Someone said I self medicated with Christianity. That is why I used these examples as they are the ways people who have been abused typically self medicate. 

 

Substance abusers probably DO talk more about Jesus. He always does mean more to people who have hit rock bottom. “He who

has been forgiven much, loves much”. 

 

 

 

I know you can't, that's kind of the point.

 

You literally have no defense or explanation.

 

That is strong evidence that you are wrong.

 

You can ignore it all you'd like, but at the end of the day you have no explanation or defense for your beliefs. That, coupled with the fact that your claims about your beliefs are literally and repeatedly contradicted by the source you claim to derive them from, which suggests that there is a serious problem with your beliefs and the only real conclusion you can draw from that is that you are wrong.

 

I would also point out that according to you, the penalty for screwing this up is Hell. Which may or may not be temporary according to you, but again, you can't defend or confirm the claim that it might be, so it seems like a stupid risk to be taking.

 

As for a lot of people "believing  the same thing you do", that doesn't matter. The number of people who believe something wrong does not make it less wrong. It is completely irrelevant if its three people or five billion people. It's just a lot of people being wrong. The world did not magically become a globe because more people were convinced it was round, and it wasn't flat before then just because more people thought that it was. That's not how it works, and this is literally what you are arguing by bringing up how many other people believe this provably incorrect and 100% contradicted by the Bible philosophy regarding Christianity.

 

You also don't "know" that you're not wrong at all. Refusing to accept literal proof that has been pretty much been beaten over your head repeatedly is not knowledge, it's just willful ignorance fueled by obstinate stubbornness, and that's not a good thing. That kind of thinking is harmful. You're basically smoking cigarettes to keep yourself from sucking your thumb. It might work, but that doesn't mean it isn't doing greater harm in the long run. Delusional thinking is harmful and causes bad judgement, which leads to poor decisions and life choices.

 

You keep acting as if acknowledging this is an explanation or excuse for some reason and that it somehow nullifies it all and makes it okay. It's basically admitting that you know you're wrong, that what you're doing is harmful, and you are acting as if shrugging your shoulders and going "oh well, it could be worse" somehow excuses it.

 

Like I said, it follows the same logic as a serial killer saying "Well, I know I raped and murdered a bunch of people, but at least I didn't eat them, so it's okay because I could be much worse".

[realityrunt]

12 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

They are caused by Satan and not God. He has permitted Satan to have dominion over this Earth. Why, I don’t know. I think it is bigger than humans, to tell the truth. I know since God is good, He does not send or cause bad things. 

If God, your god is good, was it good for him to slay babies.

 

Is slaying babies good when god does it, and bad if a human does it?

 

Why?

[Fweethawt]

9 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

If God, your god is good, was it good for him to slay babies.

 

Is slaying babies good when god does it, and bad if a human does it?

 

Why?

She's way too busy picking cherries. She doesn't have time to read her bible. You really haven't noticed?  🤣

[Fweethawt]

11 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

As for Santa that's a side topic at the moment so I'll leave that.

So Santa is just a "side topic" to you, huh? Well -- we will see about that mister!!!

 

There will be NO presents for you this year!!!

[realityrunt]

14 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I am not explaining it well, of course. Hell does not keep me believing. I would believe no matter what. I know God loves me and He is with me. 

Something is with us Penny, or we wouldn't be here. But do you think that humans have been seriously mistaken as to who the man behind the curtain is?

 

 

 

 

[realityrunt]

19 minutes ago, Fweethawt said:

She's way too busy picking cherries. She doesn't have time to read her bible. You really haven't noticed?  🤣

I love cherries. Yeah I've noticed, I think you get to a point where faith is exhausting. Because the mind has been running in subjective mode for so long, like running the same program 24/7 slows down the whole system. She needs to give her subjective faculty a rest, before she over heats her main processor.

[★ Citsonga ★]

PennySerenade, you never responded to this:

 

On 12/6/2017 at 9:01 PM, Citsonga said:

So, basically, you're saying that this God of love had some reason to actively put David into sinful relationships? What could that possibly be?

 

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 12/7/2017 at 3:41 PM, PennySerenade said:

I think people can choose what to believe, actually. 

 

Perhaps irrational people can. For those of us who are rational, though, there is simply no way to choose to believe something that is demonstrably false. We cannot do it. It is not and cannot be a choice.