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Goodbye Jesus

Which Christian Behaviors Most Annoy Atheists?


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On 12/9/2017 at 12:31 AM, Vigile said:

See, in my mind, that makes god an abuser. He demands I believe in him and all that entails (worship, etc...) or I will be subjected to horrific punishment. In human law, this is called extortion and we send people to prison for it. Real love is freely given. The kind of love god demands comes under the veil of threat. Christians like to say he gives people a choice, but this isn't a real choice just like Vito Corleone didn't give the movie producer a real choice when he put a gun to his head and told him to sign a contract. 

You might even argue that you've freely chosen, but you still are left to contend with the rest of us who are not given that free choice and that speaks directly to the character of your god. 

 

Not only does Christianity teach that God demands that you believe in him, but it has him demanding your belief without evidence and despite contrary evidence. He hides himself from you and allows everything in life to make it appear that he's not for real, and then will only prove himself to you at the final judgement, at which time it's too late to believe in him. You're doomed. (At least according to the Bible; I recognize that evidently PennySerenade holds an alternate unbiblical perspective of eventual universal salvation.)

 

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On 12/7/2017 at 6:21 AM, PennySerenade said:

I did not say Christianity was logical. 

 

On 12/7/2017 at 6:38 AM, PennySerenade said:

I agree it is absurd and illogical and dumb. Why do I believe it? I believe it is true. 

 

I can not give you any proofs or satisfactory answers. 

 

On 12/7/2017 at 7:23 AM, PennySerenade said:

Sure, it is nonsense. I know the implication. I believe in something completely absurd, dumb, and illogical. 

 

I'm curious here. Are you actually admitting that even you yourself recognize that Christianity really is absurd, illogical, dumb nonsense? Or are you instead just acknowledging that it appears as such to other people (along the lines of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25)?

 

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4 minutes ago, Citsonga said:

 

 

 

I'm curious here. Are you actually admitting that even you yourself recognize that Christianity really is absurd, illogical, dumb nonsense? Or are you instead acknowledging that it appears as such to other people (along the lines of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25)?

 

 

If she says it's the latter she's full of it because she's repeatedly said that she can't justify, defend, explain, or rationalize her beliefs. That ship sailed several pages ago.

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11 minutes ago, ContraBardus said:

If she says it's the latter she's full of it because she's repeatedly said that she can't justify, defend, explain, or rationalize her beliefs. That ship sailed several pages ago.

 

Yeah, but it's difficult to grasp the thought processes of such an irrational person, so what she actually means may be up in the air.

 

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2 hours ago, Citsonga said:

 

Yeah, but it's difficult to grasp the thought processes of such an irrational person, so what she actually means may be up in the air.

 

Dude, did you miss the Santa Claus post????

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1 hour ago, Fweethawt said:

Dude, did you miss the Santa Claus post????

 

Nope, I saw that. She's clearly loony; no doubt whatsoever about that. Like I said, it's difficult to grasp the thought processes of such an irrational person. 

 

 

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The difficulty is only because of the wasted effort of trying to understand.

 

Just let it go.

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Oh, I definitely don't plan to be involved in this much longer, but I am curious about that particular distinction. 

 

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On 12/8/2017 at 7:51 PM, PennySerenade said:

I’m very sorry. If it is any consolation to you, most believers- if they are honest, have questioned the existence of God. I am sorry that it is painful to read my posts. I do not mean to insinuate that I am a special person. 

 

I do not want to evangelize you either, but I believe if you ever believed, you are saved. I do not mean this to be offensive. Please pardon me if the above statement about your spiritual status is offensive. 

 

No pardon necessary, though I appreciate your kind words. I don't think you're trying to be offensive, I just don't think you're aware of how it can come off to us. I am aware that most believers doubt this, because I was one of them. That was the stage I was in for several  years. I would lightly doubt, but I clung to my faith and to God like crazy choosing not to trust in my understanding. One day, I remember wondering which part of my understanding I wasn't to trust.....my understanding of science and the empirical? Or my understanding of God's character? My understanding of free will and hell? Why would god give me a skeptical brain and tell me not to analyze what he gave me the senses to experience!

 

I'm sure you are sincere when you say you don't want to insinuate that you are special.....but that is still exactly what is happening. You are claiming that Jesus heard you and answered, when he did not us. You are claiming the Lord and Creator of the universe has shone upon you his great love and time and listening ear. You are absolutely claiming you're special. 

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On 12/9/2017 at 10:38 AM, PennySerenade said:

I am not explaining it well, of course. Hell does not keep me believing. I would believe no matter what. I know God loves me and He is with me. 

 

I used to say the SAME THING as a believer, for the record. That's Christianese to win brownie points with God, though you forget he can apparently read your mind. He supposedly will know how sincere you are in saying that or if it's more lip service. 

It wasn't until doubts started cascading on me that I got scared. Hell wasn't a problem for ME, the oh so special saved child of God.....as soon as I started to doubt, which felt out of my control, the very real doctrine of hell that I'd  been taught completely terrified me. And then I wondered why God would let me go there after all that "we'd been through together." I know you don't believe I could lose my faith.....but there are plenty of denominations and bible verses that allege that you can, so it's like....which bit of the bible do I believe? It sounds like I'm potentially fucked. You can add some verbal fluff and allegations of unconditional love all you like, the message is "Turn or burn." "Love me or you will be punished, you're 'free" to choose." Like anyone with an ounce of self-preservation would choose eternal self-harm. (I recognize you believe differently, but your belief doesn't bring my lack of belief much comfort."

 

On 12/9/2017 at 11:05 AM, PennySerenade said:

Thank you for answering. I guess I kind of wonder why people would wish to go back to faith, and simultaneously tell people their faith is stardust and moonbeams. It sort of sounds like “dog in the manger” sort of thing. 

 

It is similar to this: I derived much pleasure in believing in fairies and dolls that come to life when your back is turned. I wish I could believe in living dolls again. (I do believe in fairies, but that they will be in Heaven, not here).

 

If my niece believed in living dolls, I would not tell her otherwise. On the contrary, I’d probably encourage her because I’d know she’d find out the truth soon enough. I would foster the magic as long as possible. 

 

I suppose if a person thinks faith is dangerous to society, that is another matter, of course. 

 

This is, once again, an interesting analogy. As pointed out before, you have very clearly made lack of belief in dolls the "truth." You have put your faith in the "not real" bit of this analogy, it's fascinating. Of course I wouldn't want to take the innocence of imagination from a child....but the expectation is that they will grow out of it, that they will mature and see reality how it truly is. You might "foster the magic" as long as possible, but there would likely be an age where that belief is no longer acceptable and poses social, behavioral, and developmental problems. In your analogy, we are the concerned family members who want the child to have a worldview that is conducive to functioning in reality.

 

Fostering the magic is sweet for the young, but there comes a time when one must cast aside what is untrue in favor of reality. Facilitating this cognitive breakthrough is an act of love, as much an act of love as you wanting us to be saved from sin and go to heaven. Just as doctors attempt to cure cancer in a world surrounded by illness or just as lawyers aggressively pursue justice in the midst of deeply disturbing crimes, so must we fight for truth, be it unpleasant, in a world of fairy tale deities. 

 

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But how do you prove there is no God? The law and medicine are things that can be proven or tested. One can not say with authority that there is no God. I believe there is, and what I experience is God. You believe there is no God and what I experience is my imagination. 

 

Yes, I do know God can read my mind. It is very comforting, He knows I am not “fake to the core” as my former friend declared. 

 

Yes, I doubt God- every day. This is why my favorite verse in the Bible is “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief.” 

 

Oh, I don’t know. I kind of wish I never lost my belief in living dolls. 

 

I’m not a particularly good specimem, but there are millions of well developed, happy Christians in this world. Believing has done them no harm, and many times believing has done great good. 

 

Perhaps I would be more likely to lose my faith if I thought it was something only conditionally given. I know that Jesus said that every one that comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out. And that nothing can separate me from the love of God- not even myself! 

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1 hour ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

No pardon necessary, though I appreciate your kind words. I don't think you're trying to be offensive, I just don't think you're aware of how it can come off to us. I am aware that most believers doubt this, because I was one of them. That was the stage I was in for several  years. I would lightly doubt, but I clung to my faith and to God like crazy choosing not to trust in my understanding. One day, I remember wondering which part of my understanding I wasn't to trust.....my understanding of science and the empirical? Or my understanding of God's character? My understanding of free will and hell? Why would god give me a skeptical brain and tell me not to analyze what he gave me the senses to experience!

 

I'm sure you are sincere when you say you don't want to insinuate that you are special.....but that is still exactly what is happening. You are claiming that Jesus heard you and answered, when he did not us. You are claiming the Lord and Creator of the universe has shone upon you his great love and time and listening ear. You are absolutely claiming you're special. 

I’m sorry. I believe He DID hear you, and He DOES accept you. Only, you may not know it. I would say that nothing can separate you from the love of God. There is a verse in Romans about all the things that can not separate us, and next to it, I wrote “Not even my doubts”.

 

Maybe you remember about the man in Mark who brought his son to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus asked the father if he believed Jesus could heal the child. The man said “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief” and Jesus did not say “Go away you doubter!” He healed the child. Every Christian doubts. 

 

I did not mean to hurt you. Salt is supposed to make you thirsty, not be rubbed into your wounds. For not making you thirsty, and hurting you instead, I am deeply sorry.

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59 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

But how do you prove there is no God? The law and medicine are things that can be proven or tested. One can not say with authority that there is no God. I believe there is, and what I experience is God. You believe there is no God and what I experience is my imagination. 

 

Yes, I do know God can read my mind. It is very comforting, He knows I am not “fake to the core” as my former friend declared. 

 

Yes, I doubt God- every day. This is why my favorite verse in the Bible is “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief.” 

 

Oh, I don’t know. I kind of wish I never lost my belief in living dolls. 

 

I’m not a particularly good specimem, but there are millions of well developed, happy Christians in this world. Believing has done them no harm, and many times believing has done great good. 

 

Perhaps I would be more likely to lose my faith if I thought it was something only conditionally given. I know that Jesus said that every one that comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out. And that nothing can separate me from the love of God- not even myself! 

 

We don't have to prove there is no God, no one does. You can't prove negatives. It's an unreasonable standard to suggest that anyone needs to prove that anything doesn't exist.

 

I can't prove that there aren't magic pink unicorns that make marshmallow fluff on the dark side of the moon. Not even if I photograph every inch of the surface of the moon and find no evidence of their existence. That doesn't prove that they don't exist. Maybe they're just really good at hiding and very clean? My inability to prove a negative is not evidence that they exist.

 

"God exists" is a positive claim and needs to be proven true, not the other way around.

 

Being happy in delusion is still being delusional. Delusion is harmful to a person, sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly, but it always has a negative effect.

 

Also, your claim that "it could be worse, I could be an addict or sexual deviant" doesn't hold water.

 

That could have happened anyway. I see no reason to think that you being Christian had anything to do with why you didn't do things that make you uncomfortable and aren't good for you. I'm not even really sure why you seem to think so. From what I know of other Christians, it doesn't really do anything to stop them from doing stuff like that anyway.

 

If anything the lack of the concept of "divine forgiveness" makes people less likely to do stupid selfish things. It does away with the mentality that one can just ask God for forgiveness after the fact. To someone without faith, there are no do overs, you have to get it right the first time and are held responsible for your own actions with no way to take them back.

 

In my experience, the more "faith" someone has, the less trustworthy and more selfish they actually are.

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54 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I’m sorry. I believe He DID hear you, and He DOES accept you. Only, you may not know it. I would say that nothing can separate you from the love of God. There is a verse in Romans about all the things that can not separate us, and next to it, I wrote “Not even my doubts”.

 

Maybe you remember about the man in Mark who brought his son to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus asked the father if he believed Jesus could heal the child. The man said “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief” and Jesus did not say “Go away you doubter!” He healed the child. Every Christian doubts. 

 

I did not mean to hurt you. Salt is supposed to make you thirsty, not be rubbed into your wounds. For not making you thirsty, and hurting you instead, I am deeply sorry.

 

Yeah. No.

 

The all knowing, all powerful, lord of the Universe did not get their message wrong. An omnipotent and omnipresent being would have no trouble communicating with any individual in the absolutely perfect manner. It would know just what to say, how to say it, and how to communicate in a manner that we could not mistake for anything but divine contact.

 

If any of this was remotely true, we would not be unable to not hear it or ignore it.

 

This is wrong for the same reason that multiple different translations of the Bible and hundreds of different denominations of Christianity wouldn't exist in a world where such a God existed. To say nothing of entirely different religions altogether.

 

If Christianity was truly divinely inspired, it would be one unified religion, the Bible would have one clear translation that everyone would understand the same way, and the message would be universally the same.

 

That isn't the case.

 

The fact that it has fractured the way that it has and that there are so many differing interpretations and translations is extremely strong evidence that humans made the whole thing up.

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1 hour ago, PennySerenade said:

But how do you prove there is no God?

 

The same way you prove the non existence of all other gods - all 2500 of them. The same way you prove that unicorns don't exist, fairies don't exist, the man in the moon doesn't exist.

 

Once you've figured out how we 'prove' all that then you'll figure out how we can say no God exists.

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I have to say that Penny was one of the nicest believers I have seen in a while. ......However, she asked me to delete her membership and said this to me: ''I think everyone treated me very well here. I feel kind of ashamed that I could not debate better, but like I told him, (and the board) I am neither an apologist nor a theologian. Debating is not my strong suit, and my beliefs are evolving.''

 

She came on here for one reason only and that was to satisfy a friendship. She is not going to budge in her beliefs, nor is he. I told her to go meet a nice believer. The 'yokes'  don't work.

 

Well....that was fun.........

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2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Did you actually read this? It's basically one big special pleading fallacy.

 

It pretty much says "religion has all the elements of delusion, but it's not because I want to differentiate it."

 

Religion does contradict irrefutable evidence on a regular basis. We've just been conditioned to accept it as a society.

 

Hell, it regularly contradicts itself. There are numerous contradictory passages in the Bible, known scientific errors [4 legged bugs, stars will 'fall from sky'], and straight up myth [talking snakes, giants, dragons, etc...]

 

There isn't blood in that cup at a Christian service, it's grape juice or wine. Aunt Marge did not need divine intervention to find her keys. Jesus did not whisper the lottery numbers in Jimmy's ear while he was sleeping when he got five numbers right in Powerball that one time.

 

Everything about this article is wrong. It's just trying to use snark to put religion on a pedestal to justify special treatment so that it doesn't get lumped in with other mental disorders where it belongs.

 

This is a fluff article and its only purpose is to pat people on the head and say "It's okay, your delusion is special and doesn't count. So don't feel bad about it."

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7 hours ago, Guest said:

But how do you prove there is no God? The law and medicine are things that can be proven or tested. One can not say with authority that there is no God. I believe there is, and what I experience is God. You believe there is no God and what I experience is my imagination. 

 

Yes, I do know God can read my mind. It is very comforting, He knows I am not “fake to the core” as my former friend declared. 

 

Yes, I doubt God- every day. This is why my favorite verse in the Bible is “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief.” 

 

Oh, I don’t know. I kind of wish I never lost my belief in living dolls. 

 

I’m not a particularly good specimem, but there are millions of well developed, happy Christians in this world. Believing has done them no harm, and many times believing has done great good. 

 

Perhaps I would be more likely to lose my faith if I thought it was something only conditionally given. I know that Jesus said that every one that comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out. And that nothing can separate me from the love of God- not even myself! 

How do you prove there is no God, well, god is just a identity people have given to the idea of the prime mover, the source.

 

If you take note of your Bible, when the Creator shows up in that story to direct Moses, he just says.

 

"I am who I am"

 

There's no distinction of a god archetype here, no identity, just I am who I am.

 

People have painted over this very simple idea of a creator, to create gods identity for themselves. Which has caused the idea of god to look human.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Guest said:

I’m sorry. I believe He DID hear you, and He DOES accept you. Only, you may not know it. I would say that nothing can separate you from the love of God. There is a verse in Romans about all the things that can not separate us, and next to it, I wrote “Not even my doubts”.

 

Maybe you remember about the man in Mark who brought his son to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus asked the father if he believed Jesus could heal the child. The man said “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief” and Jesus did not say “Go away you doubter!” He healed the child. Every Christian doubts. 

 

I did not mean to hurt you. Salt is supposed to make you thirsty, not be rubbed into your wounds. For not making you thirsty, and hurting you instead, I am deeply sorry.

You could follow Jesus teachings, like you would any other teacher who has ideas about how to live. But the problem I ran in to is that he make claims about faith doing things which have never been possible for the average believer.

 

Now if he was just teaching some new wisdom, that would be nice, but he's not.

His claiming that his teaching and truths lead a person who believes in them to walk on water.

 

He did it, yes I know

 

But no one since him has.

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7 hours ago, Margee said:

I have to say that Penny was one of the nicest believers I have seen in a while. ......However, she asked me to delete her membership and said this to me: ''I think everyone treated me very well here. I feel kind of ashamed that I could not debate better, but like I told him, (and the board) I am neither an apologist nor a theologian. Debating is not my strong suit, and my beliefs are evolving.''

 

She came on here for one reason only and that was to satisfy a friendship. She is not going to budge in her beliefs, nor is he. I told her to go meet a nice believer. The 'yokes'  don't work.

 

Well....that was fun.........

     I agree.  I thought she was nice.  I think she did what she set out to do.  And I think she's probably smart to leave now.  We really lobbed a lot softballs at her and I'm actually surprised it stayed as civil as it did (given the forums she wondered into).

 

     Anyhow, if the "atheist" in question was someone she's considering for a relationship then I also have to tell her to run from it just like I'd tell him to do the same.  This relationship won't work out.  Not just because of the religious aspect either.  I wish her well.

 

          mwc

 

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8 hours ago, Margee said:

said this to me: ''...my beliefs are evolving.''

 

Could that be a subtle hint that she's thinking about some of the things brought up here?

 

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1 minute ago, Citsonga said:

 

Could that be a subtle hint that she's thinking about some of the things brought up here?

 

Perhaps, because earlier she described herself as "stagnant". 

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It might be worth pointing out that one does not have to become an Atheist to leave Christianity, or any organized religion really.

 

You don't have to bounce from one religion to another to keep spirituality. Spiritualism doesn't really need an organization.

 

Deism is a thing, as is Agnosticism, Ignosticism, informal paganism, humanism, or whatever. There are even forms of Buddhism that don't believe in Gods but still have spiritual elements.

 

I'm not claiming I personally believe in any of that. I think all of it is crap, I'm just pointing out that Atheism is just one possible outcome and pretty much the most extreme possibility.

 

This is not an everything or nothing situation.

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Guest said:

But how do you prove there is no God? The law and medicine are things that can be proven or tested. One can not say with authority that there is no God. I believe there is, and what I experience is God. You believe there is no God and what I experience is my imagination. 

 

Yes, I do know God can read my mind. It is very comforting, He knows I am not “fake to the core” as my former friend declared. 

 

Yes, I doubt God- every day. This is why my favorite verse in the Bible is “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief.” 

 

Oh, I don’t know. I kind of wish I never lost my belief in living dolls. 

 

I’m not a particularly good specimem, but there are millions of well developed, happy Christians in this world. Believing has done them no harm, and many times believing has done great good. 

 

Perhaps I would be more likely to lose my faith if I thought it was something only conditionally given. I know that Jesus said that every one that comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out. And that nothing can separate me from the love of God- not even myself! 

 

As an agnostic, I have not yet fully stepped into the "there is no god" field. I am slowly making my way there, but I don't really think this is something that we can know either way. All I can say is that a] there is no evidence to suggest your particular strain of god virus is any more true than all the other strains, and b} belief in this religion can cause physical, emotional, psychological, sexual, mental (etc) harms.  I also don't necessarily think you are imagining certain experiences, I think you are attributing them to the wrong thing, namely god. I don't really know how to address the rest of your post, the number of people who believe something is irrelevant to me, there are at least a billion muslims too but that don't make it right.

 

15 hours ago, Guest said:

I’m sorry. I believe He DID hear you, and He DOES accept you. Only, you may not know it. I would say that nothing can separate you from the love of God. There is a verse in Romans about all the things that can not separate us, and next to it, I wrote “Not even my doubts”.

 

Maybe you remember about the man in Mark who brought his son to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus asked the father if he believed Jesus could heal the child. The man said “I believe, help Thou mine unbelief” and Jesus did not say “Go away you doubter!” He healed the child. Every Christian doubts. 

 

I did not mean to hurt you. Salt is supposed to make you thirsty, not be rubbed into your wounds. For not making you thirsty, and hurting you instead, I am deeply sorry.

 

Again, no need to apologize. If your god exists, then it's on him not you. The only reason I said anything was to lend understanding, not to make you feel like crap. 

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