Which Christian Behaviors Most Annoy Atheists?

[realityrunt]

5 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I think it is cruel to say there is no Heaven. No offense, but I would be way more depressed than I already am if I believed there was no Heaven. 

 

I believe in eventual Universal Reconciliation. I believe Hell is eternal, but that man’s time in it will be temporary. I think it is purgative and instructive for man, rather than punitive. Let us say I trust that Jesus will rescue people in Hell as well as on Earth. 

 

I do not believe God created cancer. Anything terrible is in the purview of Satan, not God. 

Sorry to step into this discussion here, but why can't you believe there's a wonderful paradise for us after death regardless of Jesus.

 

You honestly think Jesus was the first dude to come up with the idea of heaven?

 

No, I myself have ideas about an afterlife, rehabilitation for sick souls, death, and why we are here. But none of these beliefs require me to do mental gymnastics.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, ContraBardus said:

 

That only sounds good because you don't really understand the concept of "immortality". Not so much the literal definition of the idea, but rather the scope of what it actually means.

 

Eternity, even in paradise, sounds horrific to me.

 

Humans aren't wired to live forever, we'd eventually go insane regardless of how nice our surroundings were.

 

You can make up platitudes about how we'll be "different" as souls, but that's baseless conjecture. You don't know anything, and no one in this world knows enough to teach you any differently.

 

I also couldn't find any comfort in the idea of spending an eternity hanging around the thing called a God in the Old Testament.

 

Also, again, no being deserves eternity of punishment for any crime. Not even Lucifer himself would deserve that. No matter how long he's been wrong or evil, it's a finite amount of time and eternal infinite suffering does not fit the crime as a just or fair punishment.

 

I much prefer the idea that we're finite beings. What I've seen personally supports that. I know more about being dead than most because I've been dead, twice actually. Once in a hospital bed and once during surgery.

 

Nothing about your "comforting" afterlife is really all that comforting. It's wishful thinking that only seems like a good idea as long as you don't think about it too long. I much prefer the idea that we just end to the idea that some will suffer forever while a handful of others get to selfishly live in paradise forever, which would eventually become a kind of hell of its own. Just being a good person is not enough for God by the way, and the bible directly says, so a great many good people will be cast into hell and suffering.

 

John 10:1 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that enter not by the door into the flock, but climb up some other way, is like a thief."

 

Translation: You can't just be a good person and get into heaven. This isn't an interpretation, it's made clear that is exactly what it means by this passage:

 

John 10:9 "I am the door, by me if any man enter, he shall be saved and go in and find pasture."

 

In fact, most people won't get into heaven no matter how "good" they are, so it's actually less likely that your relatives are there than it is that they are. One or two might have made it, but the odds are against them according to the Bible.

 

Also, if you've spent your entire life raping, pillaging, and murdering, you can get into heaven if you just accept God at the last second, while people who have lived entirely virtuous lives are cast into hell. Again, this is directly stated as absolutely true by the Bible. How is that in any way just, merciful, or good?

 

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

 

I find it weird that anyone would find comfort in a system where most people are left to suffer for eternity, while only a few are "saved" from this fate. That's pretty selfish really, and really begs the question of why exactly you think that you'll personally be worthy when most of the rest of humanity isn't.

 

Then there's this: Revelation 20:15, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

 

I'm not really seeing an upside here or any reason to think of the Christian concept of the afterlife as comforting to be honest. The odds are drastically stacked against you no matter how you look at it.

 

I also fail to see what is so merciful or good about a God who set up a system where the majority of humanity is doomed to fail and end up eternally damned.

 

I much prefer the neutral idea of simply not existing, which my own personal experience backs up as the reality of death. Whether you get a good end or a bad end for the rest of eternity is entirely based on a crap shoot in your case. Not just that you've chosen the right religion, but also betting on whether you've even gotten the right denomination within that religion.

 

Your beliefs just don't line up with what is actually written in the Bible. I doubt you've ever really read it because what you believe is not really supported by what is written in it. I'm sure you're familiar with commonly used passages and assigned reading for reflection and study, but I doubt you've ever really sat down and actually read the entire thing as one normally reads a book. If you had, you wouldn't be making many of the claims and statements about your beliefs that you've made in this thread.

 

You're pretty clueless about your own religion to be honest. It's a stretch to say that you believe in something you don't really know much about. Based on your posts in this thread, you don't really have any strong beliefs regarding faith, you just don't question what you're told much and simply parrot it when pressured.

 

It's also dangerous assuming your beliefs about your religion and the afterlife are true. How do you know you're following the rules and guidelines if you don't know what they actually are? Aren't you risking eternal damnation by simply going along with things without question? Isn't it clear that your chances of getting into eternal paradise are already low enough as it is? Isn't it in your best interests to study and find out exactly what you're supposed to be doing and be aware of every little nuance? Should you really be putting that much trust in clergy to do your thinking for you when you have your eternal soul riding on it all? I don't even mean they would deliberately lead you astray, but should you really rely so completely on them to save your own soul if you really believe what you've posted about what is actually at stake? If what you're saying about the afterlife is true, you ought to be able to recite the entirety of the Bible from memory and be terrified of knowing so little yourself and being reliant on others to get you into the very exclusive and prohibitive membership that the Bible itself says the Christian afterlife is.

 

Another important question is which particular translation of the Bible do you use? It's not a matter of which one you simply like best. Which translation is your favorite shouldn't matter much when your eternal soul is on the line. They all word things differently and can lead to completely different interpretations of "God's Laws". Which is very strange if you consider that the Bible is supposed to be God's Word and inspired by a divine being. Still, you need to make sure you've got the right version of the book that has all the instructions worded properly so you don't screw up. Not sure exactly how you figure that out, but it's your soul, so I'd think it's important enough that it's worth figuring out somehow or another.

 

If you really and truly believe what you've been posting regarding your own beliefs and faith, you've really got a lot of work ahead of you. The Bible makes it pretty clear that there is very little room for error, so "good enough" isn't going to cut it.

I don’t believe you’ve read my posts. I obviously am not parrotting anything I learn in church as eventual Universal Reconciliation is considered heresy by most Christians (although when I pressed my mother about it- she conceded that perhaps it was true because God loves everyone and is good).

 

I have assurance of salvation, not because of me- good grief, no! But because of Jesus. I am trusting in Him. So, I don’t have to be good enough. I know if I go shoot a bunch of people, I’d go straight to Heaven just as much as I would go if I died today. I don’t want to shoot a bunch of people, and I don’t believe saved people would go shoot a bunch of people- but this is my extreme example since most people consider murder to be evil. 

 

Yes, a rapist, murderer, thief, etc can go to Heaven just by believing. To me, this is marvelous. It is the grace of God. It means I can go, too. I don’t have to fear, I don’t have to worry. I just believe. This is mercy. 

 

I would not want to just die. There is a lot of learning and growing for me to do. I sense that I’ll not be able to do all the learning and growing I need to do in this life only. I imagine it will take me eternity to get to the place where I want to be. It is exciting to contemplate. Thrilling, actually.

 

I know some of my relatives are in Heaven, as they were believers. I trust that perhaps others were saved at the point of death. Or perhaps after death. God’s mercy endureth forever. 

 

I have read the Bible many times, but must confess to being out of the practice as of late. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, primaryzero said:

Sorry to step into this discussion here, but why can't you believe there's a wonderful paradise for us after death regardless of Jesus.

 

You honestly think Jesus was the first dude to come up with the idea of heaven?

 

No, I myself have ideas about an afterlife, rehabilitation for sick souls, death, and why we are here. But none of these beliefs require me to do mental gymnastics.

Because I believe in Jesus. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

And yet if heaven is not real then it doesn't exist. You are essentially creating an illusion for yourself to give you comfort.

 

 

Yes, well it is nice that God would create hell, then father himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself to save us humans from the hell he created.

 

 

Penny, you are gonna run into some huge problems if you continue down this line of thinking: And be very careful how you might answer this - I've seen the same arguments over and over... people simply do not follow their own arguments through to conclusion. 

 

Who created Satan?

God created Satan, of course. Then you will say- well since God created Satan who became evil, God created evil. 

 

Satan was not originally evil. 

 

That would be analagous to me saying “Who were the parents of a serial killer?”

 

Let us presume that the parents of hypothetical serial killer were fantastic, not abusive and gave their child every possible advantage in life. Let us say they were almost perfect. Are the killer’s parents to blame for the evil the killer commits?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, primaryzero said:

Who says we won't all end up together and whole, but why do you have to believe in all this mind bending stuff to arrive at that conclusion. You don't need a holy book to ponder the possibilities laid out in your heart.

I believe in Christianity. I believe in Jesus. I know He saved me at 12, and I know He is with me. 

[realityrunt]

1 minute ago, PennySerenade said:

I believe in Christianity. I believe in Jesus. I know He saved me at 12, and I know He is with me. 

Knowing something and believing in something are two different ways we perceive the world.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes. You dont actually believe in god or Santa Clause, you WANT to believe in them I think. 

I hope whatever you are going through personally, that you get through it ok. 

You seem nice enough but you are clinging wildly to make-believe. 

Good luck to you

I believe in God and I believe in Santa Claus. I do not believe in luck, however. 

 

Thanks for the kind wishes. I don’t think I am clinging to make believe, and if others do- it is rather harmless of me. 

 

My mother worked with Alzheimer’s patients at one time. They were often delusional. The workers played along with the delusions. It was kinder, thus to tell an old lady that her imaginary baby was sweet than to tell her there is no baby at all. 

[realityrunt]

1 minute ago, PennySerenade said:

I believe in Christianity. I believe in Jesus. I know He saved me at 12, and I know He is with me. 

Knowing something and believing in something are two different ways we perceive the world.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, primaryzero said:

Knowing something and believing in something are two different ways we perceive the world.

I have experiential knowledge. I realize my knowledge is subjective and personal only to me. 

[LogicalFallacy]

32 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

God created Satan, of course. Then you will say- well since God created Satan who became evil, God created evil. 

 

Satan was not originally evil. 

 

That would be analagous to me saying “Who were the parents of a serial killer?”

 

Let us presume that the parents of hypothetical serial killer were fantastic, not abusive and gave their child every possible advantage in life. Let us say they were almost perfect. Are the killer’s parents to blame for the evil the killer commits?

 

Golly these conversations get predicable. 

 

So every Christian tires your analogy every time this topic comes up. And it fails. It fails hard.

 

The parents of a serial killer are not all powerful, all knowing, and apparently all good. If they were they would know what their Child would do and would stop that child. If they did nothing then they are evil.

 

The problem you get with an all powerful, all knowing, all good god that has created everything is that this god has knowing created evil, knowing what suffering it would cause. I don't actually know of a logical way out of this conundrum given the attributes of God. 

 

Now we could say he's not all knowing - he didn't know that Satan would turn bad (Leaving aside the problems with an all perfect God creating a being capable of such evil) So God is not all knowing... then why call him God?

 

Well maybe he's not all powerful. He can't stop Satan. Then why call him God?

 

Well maybe he's not all good.... well then he's just like us humans.... and why call him God?
 

As far back as 300BC the Greek philosopher Epicurus asked:

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

Though Christians have tried much apologetic over the years, none have been able to adequately answer the logical conclusion of an all powerful, all knowing, all good deity existing alongside evil.

 

14 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I believe in God and I believe in Santa Claus. I do not believe in luck, however.

 

I think you might be very confused. When you say you believe in Santa Claus you don't literally mean the fat man in red right?

 

[yunea]

Wow... I see so much of myself in you Penny, I get tears in my eyes. 

 

Deconversion did force me to face my own pain. It is currently making me want to not even heal because it hurts so much to face the past. The horrible things that happened, so much in me that I need to understand and forgive... I once found so much in the promises that said, "you won't even remember it". 

 

I felt God. Or so I thought. My life was a conversation with him. I told Jesus many times every day, "thy will not mine". I followed what I thought was guidance to stuff that nearly destroyed me. 

 

Penny I hope you stay safe. But we'll be here for you if you should once need it. I know that right now it feels like the Rock of Ages is the one thing that won't change. I know how it feels. Yet here I am now... 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, PennySerenade said:

I believe in God and I believe in Santa Claus. I do not believe in luck, however. 

 

Thanks for the kind wishes. I don’t think I am clinging to make believe, and if others do- it is rather harmless of me. 

 

My mother worked with Alzheimer’s patients at one time. They were often delusional. The workers played along with the delusions. It was kinder, thus to tell an old lady that her imaginary baby was sweet than to tell her there is no baby at all. 

But alzheimers patients require caretakers because their delusions are dangerous to them. 

Please go get some counseling from a professional (not pastor). 

Hon you really need help if this is how you are going through life, with this type of decision making. 

[Vigile]

17 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I do not think of Him as an abuser. 

 

What happens if we don't believe? 

[ag_NO_stic]

14 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I have come to believe in eventual Universal Reconciliation. I believe Hell is real, I believe it is the absence of God and all things good and beautiful. The nothingness. I believe that Jesus is merciful and loving. It does not make God happy for anyone to go to Hell. It gives Him no satisfaction or pleasure. I believe with my whole heart that if someone in Hell cries out for Jesus to save him, Jesus will come and rescue that person. I know God is love and loves us all. 

 

The Bible teaches that Hell was made for Satan. Man was never intended to be there in the first place. 

 

Jesus never ignores. I don’t mean to say everyone has to have a sudden spiritual awakening. I used to think they did- but I believe it may come gradual to others. 

 

I do not know what others wanted Jesus to do. If they asked Him to save them, He most assuredly would if the person believes in their heart. 

 

It's great that you believe that, but your belief doesn't change the truth whatever that may be. I might ask a question that is often posed to us agnostics/atheists: What if you are wrong? What if your salvation is not eternally secure and hell is hell?

 

12 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Oh, but it absolutely DOES make things better for people who believe in Heaven. I can not tell you the comfort I get from knowing my sister and grandmother are there and my great uncle whom I never met, but heard stories. Also, my ancestors and famous people of the past. It is going to be exciting. Heaven is not a worry if you have assurance. My grandfather is 84 and a Christian. He says he is ready to see my grandmother and my sister again and to see Jesus. It is a comfort to us knowing that death is a blip in the relationship, a temporary separation. The last words I told my grandmother were “I will see you again.” Yes, I mourned and miss them- but it is nice knowing I will see them and be with them forever. 

 

I want to see my father well. My sister and I both said independently that we want to meet our father in Heaven and know who he really was if he were not sick. 

 

I personally do not have a problem with the belief in heaven. I don't believe there is evidence for it, but I don't have interest in forcing another person to "face the ugly truth" and cause unnecessary depression if it's not really harming anyone. I second the comment made by a user here that I don't think an afterlife and Christianity are necessarily linked.....

 

 

 

 

In all of this, I want to know how you knew the mercy that washed over you was Jesus and the god of the bible? You realize these experiences are experienced by people of every faith? Doesn't it make sense, IF there was something out there, that it was more universal as opposed to just the Christian faith?

[Fweethawt]

[Guest]

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Golly these conversations get predicable. 

 

So every Christian tires your analogy every time this topic comes up. And it fails. It fails hard.

 

The parents of a serial killer are not all powerful, all knowing, and apparently all good. If they were they would know what their Child would do and would stop that child. If they did nothing then they are evil.

 

The problem you get with an all powerful, all knowing, all good god that has created everything is that this god has knowing created evil, knowing what suffering it would cause. I don't actually know of a logical way out of this conundrum given the attributes of God. 

 

Now we could say he's not all knowing - he didn't know that Satan would turn bad (Leaving aside the problems with an all perfect God creating a being capable of such evil) So God is not all knowing... then why call him God?

 

Well maybe he's not all powerful. He can't stop Satan. Then why call him God?

 

Well maybe he's not all good.... well then he's just like us humans.... and why call him God?
 

As far back as 300BC the Greek philosopher Epicurus asked:

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

Though Christians have tried much apologetic over the years, none have been able to adequately answer the logical conclusion of an all powerful, all knowing, all good deity existing alongside evil.

 

 

I think you might be very confused. When you say you believe in Santa Claus you don't literally mean the fat man in red right?

 

I am not an apologist, so can only say what I believe to be true. 

 

Yes, I actually believe in Santa Claus as a spirit but also as a real person in Heaven. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, ag_NO_stic said:

 

It's great that you believe that, but your belief doesn't change the truth whatever that may be. I might ask a question that is often posed to us agnostics/atheists: What if you are wrong? What if your salvation is not eternally secure and hell is hell?

 

 

I personally do not have a problem with the belief in heaven. I don't believe there is evidence for it, but I don't have interest in forcing another person to "face the ugly truth" and cause unnecessary depression if it's not really harming anyone. I second the comment made by a user here that I don't think an afterlife and Christianity are necessarily linked.....

 

 

 

 

In all of this, I want to know how you knew the mercy that washed over you was Jesus and the god of the bible? You realize these experiences are experienced by people of every faith? Doesn't it make sense, IF there was something out there, that it was more universal as opposed to just the Christian faith?

If I am wrong, I am wrong. I suppose I will find out when I die and cross to the other side.

 

I called to Jesus and He answered. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

What happens if we don't believe? 

I think you will go to Hell, but will believe in Hell and be rescued. I think it is purgative. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

But alzheimers patients require caretakers because their delusions are dangerous to them. 

Please go get some counseling from a professional (not pastor). 

Hon you really need help if this is how you are going through life, with this type of decision making. 

Thanks for your concern, but I do not believe my faith impairs my decision making. Other things do, but not my faith. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, yunea said:

Wow... I see so much of myself in you Penny, I get tears in my eyes. 

 

Deconversion did force me to face my own pain. It is currently making me want to not even heal because it hurts so much to face the past. The horrible things that happened, so much in me that I need to understand and forgive... I once found so much in the promises that said, "you won't even remember it". 

 

I felt God. Or so I thought. My life was a conversation with him. I told Jesus many times every day, "thy will not mine". I followed what I thought was guidance to stuff that nearly destroyed me. 

 

Penny I hope you stay safe. But we'll be here for you if you should once need it. I know that right now it feels like the Rock of Ages is the one thing that won't change. I know how it feels. Yet here I am now... 

Thank you. You are very kind. I appreciate the kind thoughts and wishes. 

[Fweethawt]

18 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Yes, I actually believe in Santa Claus as a spirit but also as a real person in Heaven. 

Let this be a big ass red flag for those who might think this conversation will go anywhere other than down a rabbit hole.

[Fweethawt]

23 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I think you will go to Hell, but will believe in Hell and be rescued. I think it is purgative. 

BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

 

Yes! I'm sure that being in hell would tend have a PURGATIVE affect on most!

 

Ha-ha!😆

 

 

Please tell me you're trolling. You have to be...

 

I knew what you meant but, damn. There had to have been a better word to use.

[ag_NO_stic]

On 12/8/2017 at 12:18 PM, PennySerenade said:

If I am wrong, I am wrong. I suppose I will find out when I die and cross to the other side.

 

I called to Jesus and He answered. 

 

Last thoughts, do you see why your response might cause some pain to those of us who have called out to Jesus and have not been answered? Does this not give you pause to how your interpretation might be flawed?  Or do you believe that our interpretation is flawed?

 

I cannot speak for everyone here. But I have cried and cried and cried. Screamed, pleaded, begged....silence.

 

Frankly, I don't want to "evangelize" to you without your request either, so I won't try to convince you. I am just trying to lend understanding to how we got where we are. Some people arrived here by an empirical, rational analysis of the evidence (or lack thereof). Some of us, like me, have a blend of emotion and reason. Mine has been a very personal loss, a very depressing and heartbreaking experience. The bible instructs believers to always have an answer for the hope that they have. I wanted so much to be like Jesus, to be with him, to make him proud of me, to break the deafening silence. The more I looked for some of the answers to questions that plagued me, the more I lost faith/hope in my "savior." Now, I wonder why I need a savior at all? I don't think it's possible to trespass against a being whose existence I question. 

[realityrunt]

3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I am not an apologist, so can only say what I believe to be true. 

 

Yes, I actually believe in Santa Claus as a spirit but also as a real person in Heaven. 

Ah, the Christmas spirit, test the spirit's Penny, test the spirit's.

 

 

[realityrunt]

3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

If I am wrong, I am wrong. I suppose I will find out when I die and cross to the other side.

 

I called to Jesus and He answered. 

How awful.