Vigile Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 minute ago, PennySerenade said: I believe I know the truth already. I believe that's a dangerous and ignorant belief. So, here we are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraBardus Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, PennySerenade said: Sure, it is nonsense. I know the implication. I believe in something completely absurd, dumb, and illogical. At this point you're either trolling, or you really don't know the implication. If it's absurd, dumb, illogical, nonsense, then you don't believe it. The concept of belief is mutually exclusive to something being absurd, dumb, illogical, nonsense. You can't have it both ways, it's either one way or the other. They aren't compatible positions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, ContraBardus said: At this point you're either trolling, or you really don't know the implication. If it's absurd, dumb, illogical, nonsense, then you don't believe it. The concept of belief is mutually exclusive to something being absurd, dumb, illogical, nonsense. You can't have it both ways, it's either one way or the other. They aren't compatible positions. I’m not intentionally trolling. I believe Christianity is absurd, illogical nonsense- yet I believe it. I don’t know why they are not compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, Vigile said: I believe that's a dangerous and ignorant belief. So, here we are. Yes, I guess you would think so. I would add that you probably think it is an arrogant belief as well- to believe you know the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraBardus Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, PennySerenade said: I’m not intentionally trolling. I believe Christianity is absurd, illogical nonsense- yet I believe it. I don’t know why they are not compatible. Two of those words directly mean false or untrue, the other implies it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, ContraBardus said: Two of those words directly mean false or untrue, the other implies it. That comment ( the one you quoted above) is actually more unbelievable than Christianity. Just when I thought I'd seen it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 2 hours ago, ContraBardus said: Then why believe it? Because he/she gets to escape the terrifying doctrine, myth and belief in hellfire that each and every one of us had to break free from. She gets to believe in the magical sky god that is 'all love'' and will protect and love her through all the disappointments of life. She gets to pray and believe that those prayers are heard by an invisible power that will change things through those prayers. Because she gets to believe in a glorious afterlife where she will meet all her loved ones and spend eternity dancing and singing and praising god. She/he gets to believe that the christian ''Santa'' is directing her life and will show her the right paths to take in life. Because it helps her to get out of bed every morning and have hope that all will go well because magical god will provide the strength to get through life's trials. She gets to hold on to this fairytale. And it helps to keep her happy. Because facing the cold, hard facts of the reality of life is too hard for most people. It's a survival mechanism..... Doesn't matter if it's true or not.... 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ag_NO_stic Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, PennySerenade said: I’m not intentionally trolling. I believe Christianity is absurd, illogical nonsense- yet I believe it. I don’t know why they are not compatible. Do you mind me asking how you arrived at your beliefs? It's one thing to evangelize when you're not asked, but I'm engaging you in your beliefs and it's a welcome dialogue. I'm just wondering how one would get to a point that you choose to believe something you'd self-describe as absurd. Is it just that you believe we have made logic, science, reason, and the observable parts of life our "idols?" Are those things not of much value compared to faith/belief/the "unprovable?" Like...how do you "know" him to be loving? Everyone is convinced of something somehow, you wouldn't believe in Santa or Bigfoot or the Toothfairy without learning it and being convinced of it somewhere. Not even the slightest bit of sarcasm or unkindness meant, I'm sincerely curious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 11 hours ago, Citsonga said: Interesting point about the alternate translation. I just looked up a bunch of Bible versions; there are a lot that say one wife, but there are also a lot that render it as you suggest. I don't know Greek, so I can't really add anything. Regardless of which rendering is accurate, the texts are very specific as being guidelines for bishops, deacons, and elders, so either way it isn't directed at men in general. (Of course, I'm in full agreement about the discrepancies you mention.) I Tim 3:2 says that if someone desires the office of "bishop" (ἐπισκοπῆς), he should be a bunch of things including "husband of one wife" (μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα). Titus 1:6 says that Titus should establish elders or presbyters city by city who must be, among other things, husband of one wife, same Greek words as in I Tim. The critical apparatus in my Greek NT says that down at Titus 1:9, where the author is talking about bishops (episkopoi), a 13th century manuscripts adds a few sentences not printed in Bibles. These sentences include the injunction not to elect men who have married twice (digamous) nor make them deacons nor allow them to have wives out of bigamy. I don't know any translation that includes these added words, nor is it clear when they were added. It's also not clear to me whether the author of these verses means, don't have bishops whose first wives died and who married again, or whether he means don't have as bishops men who have two wives at once. It's also not clear to me whether he means that a bishop's wife should not be a widow who has remarried. I suspect he means the that neither the bishop nor his wife should have been in marriages prior to their current marriage. I suspect this because there was controversy in the early Byzantine church over who is allowed to remarry and how many times. But I'm too lazy to research it further! This 13th century manuscript also has sections in Latin and in Arabic and was found in a monastery in Sicily. Crazy! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, PennySerenade said: Yes, I guess you would think so. I would add that you probably think it is an arrogant belief as well- to believe you know the truth. You could frame it that way, but I wouldn't personally call it arrogant. I think it's due to a lack of knowledge and that often occurs with lack of opportunity or other roadblocks. It's just unfortunate IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Margee said: Because he/she gets to escape the terrifying doctrine, myth and belief in hellfire that each and every one of us had to break free from. She gets to believe in the magical sky god that is 'all love'' and will protect and love her through all the disappointments of life. She gets to pray and believe that those prayers are heard by an invisible power that will change things through those prayers. Because she gets to believe in a glorious afterlife where she will meet all her loved ones and spend eternity dancing and singing and praising god. She/he gets to believe that the christian ''Santa'' is directing her life and will show her the right paths to take in life. Because it helps her to get out of bed every morning and have hope that all will go well because magical god will provide the strength to get through life's trials. She gets to hold on to this fairytale. And it helps to keep her happy. Because facing the cold, hard facts of the reality of life is too hard for most people. It's a survival mechanism..... Doesn't matter if it's true or not.... I honestly hope it stays that way for her. I remember a member who was here years ago who believed exactly like this until she lost her baby. The harsh reality she was faced with caused her beliefs to come crashing down and it was painful and what caused it even more so. I don't wish that on anyone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, TrueScotsman said: Are you influenced by Kierkegaard, this sounds like him. No, I’ve not read philosophy. He is a Christian philosopher, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Vigile said: I honestly hope it stays that way for her. I remember a member who was here years ago who believed exactly like this until she lost her baby. The harsh reality she was faced with caused her beliefs to come crashing down and it was painful and what caused it even more so. I don't wish that on anyone. Oh, but I have had bad things happen in my life. I won’t go through them all. Suffice it to say the emotional abuse by my father was extreme enough that I planned to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOHO Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Margee said: Because he/she gets to escape the terrifying doctrine, myth and belief in hellfire that each and every one of us had to break free from. She gets to believe in the magical sky god that is 'all love'' and will protect and love her through all the disappointments of life. She gets to pray and believe that those prayers are heard by an invisible power that will change things through those prayers. Because she gets to believe in a glorious afterlife where she will meet all her loved ones and spend eternity dancing and singing and praising god. She/he gets to believe that the christian ''Santa'' is directing her life and will show her the right paths to take in life. Because it helps her to get out of bed every morning and have hope that all will go well because magical god will provide the strength to get through life's trials. She gets to hold on to this fairytale. And it helps to keep her happy. Because facing the cold, hard facts of the reality of life is too hard for most people. It's a survival mechanism..... Doesn't matter if it's true or not.... That is perfect, @Margee! Well put and every word true and enlightening for those of us struggling with over the top, zealous, tough battling, spouses who have been indoctrinated for decades. Perhaps the approach of helping said spouse with overcoming the fear of Hell would have better results. Sorry for the deviation from the gist of this post. And now...back to the regularly scheduled discussion... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 20 hours ago, PennySerenade said: Because people are unable to follow God’s law. We can not keep it. Why would God make laws that people could not follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 6 hours ago, Margee said: Because he/she gets to escape the terrifying doctrine, myth and belief in hellfire that each and every one of us had to break free from. She gets to believe in the magical sky god that is 'all love'' and will protect and love her through all the disappointments of life. She gets to pray and believe that those prayers are heard by an invisible power that will change things through those prayers. Because she gets to believe in a glorious afterlife where she will meet all her loved ones and spend eternity dancing and singing and praising god. She/he gets to believe that the christian ''Santa'' is directing her life and will show her the right paths to take in life. Because it helps her to get out of bed every morning and have hope that all will go well because magical god will provide the strength to get through life's trials. She gets to hold on to this fairytale. And it helps to keep her happy. Because facing the cold, hard facts of the reality of life is too hard for most people. It's a survival mechanism..... Doesn't matter if it's true or not.... Other people drink. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 7 hours ago, PennySerenade said: I believe I know the truth already. So you are making a statement of belief about knowledge... except that knowledge negates the need for belief. You can cut that sentence down to "I know the truth". Otherwise what you are saying is I believe Christianity has the truth. Do you care if the things you believe in are true? If something is true, then its not completely absurd, dumb, and illogical, its just true. If something is not true then it can be, and probably is completely absurd, dumb, and illogical. And this is what we find with Christianity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 6 hours ago, Margee said: It's a survival mechanism..... Doesn't matter if it's true or not.... And that is truth! Cold and hard, but its the truth. Your post hit the nail on the head Margee - as you often do, fountain of wisdom you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddJ Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 On 11/28/2017 at 7:06 PM, PennySerenade said: I feel like I am breaking into someone else's clubhouse by registering on this site as I am a Christian and not looking to deconvert. My friend is now an atheist and wanted me to come here so as not to be insulated by Christians and Deists. I don't really know what to talk about, so the first thing that came to mind is which behaviors of Christians are most annoying to atheists? How can Christians be less objectionable? You can't. But I do not presume to speak for atheists since I am not one. If you're going to be Christian perhaps you should read your Bible from cover to cover and then decide if you want to keep the faith. I don't particularly hate Christians to be honest, but I really can't force myself to pretend to love the most narcissistic being that's ever existed in all of eternity. You're supposed to love the LORD with all of your heart, your mind, and your soul. You will never receive that love in return. At least not from the monster depicted in the Christian Bible. I'm an ex-christian because I do not like the God, and I can't make myself feel any differently about any more than I could turn myself into an atheist and start extolling the virtues of Darwin. People do not choose their beliefs, so it is not anyone's fault and you don't necessarily need to modify your behavior. Just understand that there are people who cannot love God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 42 minutes ago, ToddJ said: You can't. But I do not presume to speak for atheists since I am not one. If you're going to be Christian perhaps you should read your Bible from cover to cover and then decide if you want to keep the faith. I don't particularly hate Christians to be honest, but I really can't force myself to pretend to love the most narcissistic being that's ever existed in all of eternity. You're supposed to love the LORD with all of your heart, your mind, and your soul. You will never receive that love in return. At least not from the monster depicted in the Christian Bible. I'm an ex-christian because I do not like the God, and I can't make myself feel any differently about any more than I could turn myself into an atheist and start extolling the virtues of Darwin. People do not choose their beliefs, so it is not anyone's fault and you don't necessarily need to modify your behavior. Just understand that there are people who cannot love God. Yes, I know that some people can not love God. I have read the Bible many times, but must confess to being out of the practice for a while. Thank you for your answer. I think people can choose what to believe, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 53 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: So you are making a statement of belief about knowledge... except that knowledge negates the need for belief. You can cut that sentence down to "I know the truth". Otherwise what you are saying is I believe Christianity has the truth. Do you care if the things you believe in are true? If something is true, then its not completely absurd, dumb, and illogical, its just true. If something is not true then it can be, and probably is completely absurd, dumb, and illogical. And this is what we find with Christianity. I believe in many absurd things being true. I don’t get the distinction between nonsense and truth. True things can be absurd and illogical very often. For instance, if a woman loves her husband that beats her- it is illogical, nonsensical, and absurd. But, it is true. I am not referring to women who stay with abusive husbands due to fear. I am referring to women who actually love their abusers. Most people get exasperated because it is absurd. But, there you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddJ Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 minute ago, PennySerenade said: I believe in many absurd things being true. I don’t get the distinction between nonsense and truth. True things can be absurd and illogical very often. For instance, if a woman loves her husband that beats her- it is illogical, nonsensical, and absurd. But, it is true. I am not referring to women who stay with abusive husbands due to fear. I am referring to women who actually love their abusers. Most people get exasperated because it is absurd. But, there you are. That's a good example, considering the abusive nature of the God of the Bible. Thank you for informing us we should love an abuser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ContraBardus Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Just now, PennySerenade said: Yes, I know that some people can not love God. I have read the Bible many times, but must confess to being out of the practice for a while. Thank you for your answer. I think people can choose what to believe, actually. Knowing what you know now, could you really convince yourself that Santa Claus is a jolly old man who lives at the North Pole that travels around the world in one night with magic flying reindeer to bring presents to children? Do you really think you could make yourself believe all that is actually true just because you simply want to think that it is? Sorry, but no. That's not how it works. If you think you could really do that you're simply deluded. Belief is one of those things that once you let it go, there's often no putting it back. It's not a matter of preference or choice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, midniterider said: Why would God make laws that people could not follow? I would have to go back and reread. If I recall correctly, God asked the Jews if they wanted grace or law- and they chose law. But God wants to give grace- so He knew they could not keep it. It is a schoolmaster, showing us the need for grace and mercy instead of law and justice. Even if it was only one easy law like “thou shalt not kill”, although most people would be able to keep it- not all are. Grace and mercy are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, PennySerenade said: . I think people can choose what to believe, actually. So do I. I decided to believe inJesus for a while. Then decided not to believe anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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