I guess I asked for it.

[theyownyou33]

So, I hope I don't incur any judgement here. I'm so confused in my current family setting that I don't know what to do. As I mentioned in my introduction post I've severely fallen out of the faith, but my wife and kids (all under 10...except for the wife....shes 27 lol) are still in the faith.

 

Rachel (wife) has been looking for a new church since she had a bad experience at the small fundamental baptist church she was attending. She for some reason really wanted me to go to check out this newer, more modern charismatic church with her. I'm not sure why, because she says I'm obsessed with religion and will not shut up about it (truth).

 

So, we go to this place and its got coffee bars and computers that you use to check your kids in. They have multiple services a day and it's packed. Anyway, the pastor comes on talking about how our lives are like the sunrise to sunset and eventually we will all die and how nice it would be to have the sweet shepherd Jesus to shepherd us somewhere fancy. He then goes on to talk about King Herod and says "See, the Bible is telling you all this historically accurate stuff so you know you aren't believing in fairy tales". I made a note on my phone to my wife that said "historically accurate context doesn't validate religious beliefs or corroborate the other parts of the story". Then he later has the gall to say that Herod was a very, very insecure leader, because he killed all of those toddlers while trying to get Jesus. I made another note that said "Herod kills toddlers and is a disgusting abomination, but tots ok when God does it". I really couldn't believe that he went on that much about the toddler thing.

 

Anyway, she asked me how the service was and I very gently and calmly picked it a part and she got so defensive out of nowhere. She starts yelling at me about how we agreed to raise our kids a certain way and that I've had beliefs in the past that I've moved on from (conspiracies and the like). I keep trying to explain to her that it's actually great that I'm constantly changing and trying to find new information, but for some reason that's a fault to her. Like, if i'm not stuck in the same ridiculous place with faith my entire life that somehow my opinions aren't valid. I went onto tell her about all the new information I've come across and she didn't want to hear it. I lost it after about 20 minutes of being berated and told her if she was a real christian than she should meet me where I'm at and look at the information I have and help me through it. She said that she would, but I don't think she ever will. Then she goes onto say that shes worried about the kids going to hell over everything and that it's better to just believe.

 

I'm so frustrated with everything and everyone is always making me seem like a bad guy, because I won't be tortured with fear for absolutely no valid reason at all. It really took it out of me today. Anyway......maybe I should have cursed more? Not a very good rant, eh?

[padgemi]

3 hours ago, theyownyou33 said:

So, I hope I don't incur any judgement here. I'm so confused in my current family setting that I don't know what to do. As I mentioned in my introduction post I've severely fallen out of the faith, but my wife and kids (all under 10...except for the wife....shes 27 lol) are still in the faith.

 

Rachel (wife) has been looking for a new church since she had a bad experience at the small fundamental baptist church she was attending. She for some reason really wanted me to go to check out this newer, more modern charismatic church with her. I'm not sure why, because she says I'm obsessed with religion and will not shut up about it (truth).

 

So, we go to this place and its got coffee bars and computers that you use to check your kids in. They have multiple services a day and it's packed. Anyway, the pastor comes on talking about how our lives are like the sunrise to sunset and eventually we will all die and how nice it would be to have the sweet shepherd Jesus to shepherd us somewhere fancy. He then goes on to talk about King Herod and says "See, the Bible is telling you all this historically accurate stuff so you know you aren't believing in fairy tales". I made a note on my phone to my wife that said "historically accurate context doesn't validate religious beliefs or corroborate the other parts of the story". Then he later has the gall to say that Herod was a very, very insecure leader, because he killed all of those toddlers while trying to get Jesus. I made another note that said "Herod kills toddlers and is a disgusting abomination, but tots ok when God does it". I really couldn't believe that he went on that much about the toddler thing.

 

Anyway, she asked me how the service was and I very gently and calmly picked it a part and she got so defensive out of nowhere. She starts yelling at me about how we agreed to raise our kids a certain way and that I've had beliefs in the past that I've moved on from (conspiracies and the like). I keep trying to explain to her that it's actually great that I'm constantly changing and trying to find new information, but for some reason that's a fault to her. Like, if i'm not stuck in the same ridiculous place with faith my entire life that somehow my opinions aren't valid. I went onto tell her about all the new information I've come across and she didn't want to hear it. I lost it after about 20 minutes of being berated and told her if she was a real christian than she should meet me where I'm at and look at the information I have and help me through it. She said that she would, but I don't think she ever will. Then she goes onto say that shes worried about the kids going to hell over everything and that it's better to just believe.

 

I'm so frustrated with everything and everyone is always making me seem like a bad guy, because I won't be tortured with fear for absolutely no valid reason at all. It really took it out of me today. Anyway......maybe I should have cursed more? Not a very good rant, eh?

Hang in there @theyownyou33. It’s a very rare bird that loses their religion overnight.  Maybe if you back off she will come around in due time...

If I recall correctly, the Calvinist mythology says if your kids are predestined, they’re predestined and if they ain’t they ain’t.  So there’s that.  Also the free will mythology has it that your kids’ own choices will keep them out of hell.  So you might advise your wife that “better to just believe” for you is inconsequential for your kids’ spiritual destiny.

 

Personally, I believe hell only exists here on earth, so we should concentrate on staying out of there while we’re still alive.  Don’t get sucked into a place where you are pressured to live contrary to your own beliefs or desires (my approximate definition of hell).

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Do you know why she first believed? I've found that going back to that will tell you why someone persists in believing deep down. For me, it was fear of demons after seeing an advert for the Exorcist movie. That plus I was superstitious and scared of several movie monsters. I was zealous for scripture for a few years prior to going to a church. When I finally started going to church, I also had friends for the first time and hugs from pretty girls. That was strong motivation on an emotional level, plus having people that were also zealous was encouraging. When other people also believe in your imaginary friend, it makes him seem much more real.

 

During my deconversion, I revisited why I had first believed and recalled the Exorcist and realized I had made a childish decision to follow a life-changing path of belief in things that I didn't understand and hadn't researched. That is the case for nearly all believers.

 

By the way, Herod likely didn't slaughter any toddlers in response to Jesus and Babylonian astrologers that came to Jerusalem. There is no evidence of such a slaughter, like there is no evidence of Jesus existing outside of these cult writings. The "prophecy" that is quoted from Jeremiah 31 is also out of context, and refers not to dead children but to kidnapped children. Rachel weeping for her children for they are no more becomes Rachel rejoicing because her children are returned to her. Just mentioning a person from history doesn't make the event described historical. It's like making a up story about Abraham Lincoln being a vampire hunter and saying it must be historical because Lincoln was real.

[Geezer]

Believers (especially fundamentalists believers) tend to be blind, deaf, & in a mentally indoctrinated trance whenever their "beliefs" are being challenged. It's much like trying to have a discussion with a brick wall. 

 

I think it might be wise to just not talk about religion at all around her. Talking about religion around her will likely make her more & more defensive & that could lead to some serious marital issues. These unequally yoked situations are very difficult & potentially destructive.

 

I was able to convince my wife to leave Christian fundamentalism & try a more liberal version of Xianity (Methodist).It turned out that she is a very happy Methodist now & I discovered liberal Xians are tolerable, in that they aren't dogmatic about their beliefs. 

 

Life is is filled with situations that require compromise. Sometimes the lesser evil is the best option. Divorce is expensive, distructive,  & emotionally damaging. So that should not be an option, especially when children are involved.

 

[MOHO]

@theyownyou33,

 

That could have been a play-by-play of the last conversation I had with Mrs. MOHO regarding religion. @Geezer is right. Any attempt to have a meaningful conversation on topics of theology, faith, xianity, religion with a fundamentalist is, for the most part, a complete and utter waist of time and effort. If the opposition is your spouse you will also be left emotionally drained and with some hard feelings for days or weeks.

 

My wife has been informed that I am an unbeliever but I think that is a concept she chooses to unbelieve in. @Geezer also stated that you have to just back off the attempts at logic, reason, and history lessons - unless, of course, they seem genuinely interested.

 

That last thing @Geezer mentioned is that divorce is costly - both financially and emotionally. I contemplate this on an almost daily basis and , for now at least, have come to the conclusion that attending services on Sunday (not every week) but not going into the sanctuary but patrolling the entrances and parking lots instead, is working. (Compromise) Mrs. MOHO keeps nudging and testing but I remain completely silent as I would have to be honest if I say anything and the Mrs. can be a very very tough battler and gets very negative with anyone who does not completely agree with her on everything.

 

But, she is NOT a fascist! ("Stop calling me names!")

 

If/when I find a path to enlightening the fundy crowd that is even remotely effective - I'l share.

[Geezer]

I would add this too. If the ultimate goal is to de-convert the spouse,  the non- believer might want to rethink that. Until a believer develops doubt on their own, the chances of de-converting them using logic, reason, & evidence just isn't likely. If anything they tend to dig in & defend their beliefs even more dogmatically.

 

When I was a believer I would never have listened to a non-believers argument. I developed doubts on my own then I became interested & willing to listen.

 

No matter how tactfully a non-believers challenges a believers faith it comes across to them that you're calling them stupid. And nobody reacts favorably if they think someone is calling them stupid. 

 

Until or or unless the believer comes to you with questions it's probably best to let sleeping dogs...well, ah, sleep. 

[midniterider]

On 12/3/2017 at 3:41 PM, theyownyou33 said:

So, I hope I don't incur any judgement here. I'm so confused in my current family setting that I don't know what to do. As I mentioned in my introduction post I've severely fallen out of the faith, but my wife and kids (all under 10...except for the wife....shes 27 lol) are still in the faith.

 

Rachel (wife) has been looking for a new church since she had a bad experience at the small fundamental baptist church she was attending. She for some reason really wanted me to go to check out this newer, more modern charismatic church with her. I'm not sure why, because she says I'm obsessed with religion and will not shut up about it (truth).

 

So, we go to this place and its got coffee bars and computers that you use to check your kids in. They have multiple services a day and it's packed. Anyway, the pastor comes on talking about how our lives are like the sunrise to sunset and eventually we will all die and how nice it would be to have the sweet shepherd Jesus to shepherd us somewhere fancy. He then goes on to talk about King Herod and says "See, the Bible is telling you all this historically accurate stuff so you know you aren't believing in fairy tales". I made a note on my phone to my wife that said "historically accurate context doesn't validate religious beliefs or corroborate the other parts of the story". Then he later has the gall to say that Herod was a very, very insecure leader, because he killed all of those toddlers while trying to get Jesus. I made another note that said "Herod kills toddlers and is a disgusting abomination, but tots ok when God does it". I really couldn't believe that he went on that much about the toddler thing.

 

Anyway, she asked me how the service was and I very gently and calmly picked it a part and she got so defensive out of nowhere. She starts yelling at me about how we agreed to raise our kids a certain way and that I've had beliefs in the past that I've moved on from (conspiracies and the like). I keep trying to explain to her that it's actually great that I'm constantly changing and trying to find new information, but for some reason that's a fault to her. Like, if i'm not stuck in the same ridiculous place with faith my entire life that somehow my opinions aren't valid. I went onto tell her about all the new information I've come across and she didn't want to hear it. I lost it after about 20 minutes of being berated and told her if she was a real christian than she should meet me where I'm at and look at the information I have and help me through it. She said that she would, but I don't think she ever will. Then she goes onto say that shes worried about the kids going to hell over everything and that it's better to just believe.

 

I'm so frustrated with everything and everyone is always making me seem like a bad guy, because I won't be tortured with fear for absolutely no valid reason at all. It really took it out of me today. Anyway......maybe I should have cursed more? Not a very good rant, eh?

 

I don't  think you can really fight the Jesus spell with logic and reason. Jesus is like that bad boy that your teenager is secretly dating. She has to find out on her own that he's a loser ...at which point you can present your logic, evidence, etc.

 

Try not being so hard on religion, for her sake. But don't be pro-Christianity either. Get out of the charismatic church and into a liberal church. The less froot loop fundamentalist, the better. Tell your wife that you have been thinking about what she said with regard to constantly changing ideas so you want to find a church more rooted in tradition. Talk up liberal church denominations while talking down the Pentecostal ones. You want to just go to church then leave. After all, it's Sunday and you need to get home and have fun with the kids!

 

When children ask you about some religious bullshit try to find a non-religious answer. Find a humanist/real life answer if you can. Let Mom be the voice of religion while you are the voice of common sense. Don't make fun of religion or talk evil of it. If a child memorized some bible verse, say "Good for you!" ... then start a conversation on any topic that will make them use their brain. Maybe avoid shooting down that bible verse.  

 

If the wife wants your opinion on some bible topic or some religious direction to take, if you disagree with it say, "I'm not sure. I'll pray about it. Then maybe the impression you 'got from Jesus' is the direction that you want to go anyway. Be subtle. Be the perfect fake Christian. lol. The perfect fake Christian that eventually, over time helps your family to fade away from the religion. Be patient. It may take years.

 

 

 

[Mothernature]

I feel for you. I know how frustrating it can be in that situation. I've had to avoid religious conversations with my husband b/c there is no questioning his beliefs no matter how crazy they are. I had a similar situation where my husband wanted to try a more charismatic church and I agreed to go with him to see it. This is before i realized how much of a cult the fundamentalist churches are. It had the bar and computer as you mentioned. They wanted me to leave my kids checked in as numbers in this foreign place and I said no I wanted to go with them, as who in their right mind would drop their kids off without checking the people and place out first. I compared it to a daycare in which I would always check out in person prior to leaving my kids there. They would not compromise so I refused and took the kids with me into the hall(?). We were the ONLY ones in there with kids. I had a really eerie feeling about it. Anyway about 15 min. In, after some upbeat music which made my husband empty his wallet 😠, someone came to us and told me I could go with the kids to the children's program. Glad I did as I did not want anything to do with that congregation. Anyway I was able to use that situation to justify that is not where I want my children going. They were completely separate from the service and it was like a daycare. I complained that we are away from them all week b/c of work so I didn't want them in daycare on the weekend while we should be together for church. Anyway, I don't mean to take over your rant but maybe you can use some of these ideas/reasoning to get away from that church. As for your wife, good luck. If you find something that works let me know and I'll do the same!

[Positivist]

On 2017-12-04 at 11:17 AM, Geezer said:

Divorce is expensive, distructive,  & emotionally damaging. 

 

Yes, it's INSANELY expensive. That's the boat I'm on. (And that story is elsewhere. Koolaid, anyone?)

 

To me, I think she sounds scared. She's scared you're going to change as a person (for the worse) into some awful monster with no morals. She's afraid for her and her children's stability--financially, emotionally, socially, etc.

 

Maybe you can find ways to demonstrate daily that you are a better husband and father now. That might put her at ease....

 

My 2 cents!

[MOHO]

22 hours ago, Positivist said:

 

Yes, it's INSANELY expensive. That's the boat I'm on. (And that story is elsewhere. Koolaid, anyone?)

 

To me, I think she sounds scared. She's scared you're going to change as a person (for the worse) into some awful monster with no morals. She's afraid for her and her children's stability--financially, emotionally, socially, etc.

 

Maybe you can find ways to demonstrate daily that you are a better husband and father now. That might put her at ease....

 

My 2 cents!

 

@theyownyou33,

 

I echo what @Positivist said here.

 

Mrs. MOHO calmed down quite a bit after several weeks. When she realized that I'm not possessed as Pastor assfuck tells the flock happens to those who express doubt and disbelief, things began to get back to some semblance of "normal". And if she realized that the dickheads @ church are not reliable sources of information then, who knows where THAT could lead?

[theyownyou33]

@MOHO Yea, I guess she's probably heard a lot about it in her time. I'm also sure that she's maybe thinking this is some sort of phase and that I'm going to switch back any minute. It's been pretty calm the last few days, but there has been a noticeable rift between us.

[theyownyou33]

On 12/4/2017 at 10:37 PM, Mothernature said:

I feel for you. I know how frustrating it can be in that situation. I've had to avoid religious conversations with my husband b/c there is no questioning his beliefs no matter how crazy they are. I had a similar situation where my husband wanted to try a more charismatic church and I agreed to go with him to see it. This is before i realized how much of a cult the fundamentalist churches are. It had the bar and computer as you mentioned. They wanted me to leave my kids checked in as numbers in this foreign place and I said no I wanted to go with them, as who in their right mind would drop their kids off without checking the people and place out first. I compared it to a daycare in which I would always check out in person prior to leaving my kids there. They would not compromise so I refused and took the kids with me into the hall(?). We were the ONLY ones in there with kids. I had a really eerie feeling about it. Anyway about 15 min. In, after some upbeat music which made my husband empty his wallet 😠, someone came to us and told me I could go with the kids to the children's program. Glad I did as I did not want anything to do with that congregation. Anyway I was able to use that situation to justify that is not where I want my children going. They were completely separate from the service and it was like a daycare. I complained that we are away from them all week b/c of work so I didn't want them in daycare on the weekend while we should be together for church. Anyway, I don't mean to take over your rant but maybe you can use some of these ideas/reasoning to get away from that church. As for your wife, good luck. If you find something that works let me know and I'll do the same!

I told my wife that we are too poor for God and that if he wants donations he will have to the financial harvest or whatever weird farming terminology they like to use. Thanks for sharing. I really appreciate it.

[theyownyou33]

Thanks to everyone who has responded. I have definitely been thinking about what every one has said and I'm sure this isn't the end of  it. I'm going to take everyones advice and play it cool from now on. Unless she brings something up on her own.

[LostinParis]

@theyownyou33 It's hard living with a fundy, every discussion seems to turn into an argument. I have given up trying to change my husband's views, it's too emotionally exhausting. Even my gentle questioning he interprets as a personal attack. He says he no longer wishes to discuss religion or science.

 

He tells me I have been brainwashed by left-wing propaganda, and that they are trying to eradicate Christianity LOL. I admit I have been slightly evangelical about my newfound atheism (I have found the truth!)

 

We have been seeing a marriage counsellor to try to solve our parenting disagreements. I have weighed up my options and decided to stay in the marriage for now. At least until the kids are a little older. My husband is not the enemy.

 

I am now trying to view him with compassion. Through no fault of his own, his childhood indoctrination gave him a distorted view of the world. His fear of hell is what suppresses his critical thoughts, and prevents him from questioning his beliefs.

 

I think religion fills an unconscious psychological need. It can provide certainty in an uncertain world. Reality sucks sometimes. Anxiety sucks. Close your mind and you will have bliss...

 

[Ellinas]

The basic problem, to my mind, is the fear of the believer.  Your wife is scared.  She is scared for the hereafter, because she has been indoctrinated that a particular mythology is automatically correct.  She is scared for the present, because unbelief in the family threatens the social circle in which she has invested.

So, her reactions will be defensive and extreme in proportion to her fear.

Whether she will ever face that fear and come out the other end, I do not know.  If you confront her, probably not.  If you leave her, maybe not.  If you play it canny, keeping a balance between debunking and supporting (sort of "I don't agree with you but I'm not going to do anything that will endanger your position"), maybe.

Quite where that balance lies, only you can judge.

[Lilith666]

Welcome to Ex-C. Sorry you're going through this.

 

Anger at Christianity and zeal to de-convert people are pretty common for awhile after you leave; I was in that state for three or four years afterward. Still, I agree with the suggestions of backing off the crusading until your wife seems more receptive. If you haven't gotten anywhere so far by sparring with her, you probably won't by continuing to hammer your point. Besides, by forcefully putting down Jesus/Rachel's beliefs, you're setting yourself up as the bad guy. Try being compassionate and understanding without compromising your own beliefs, show her you're on her side. As well as just being kind, it may help break down her idea of non-Christians as angry and hostile toward Christians, if she buys into that, instead of reinforcing it. I can't guarantee that she will become more willing to listen, but it might be a start.

 

I'm so glad you realize you're not obligated to continue believing the same things your whole life. Only you are in charge of your mind, not Jesus, not your wife, not anybody or anything else. You'll probably end up compromising on how to raise the kids, but opposite to the Christian demand that its followers always maintain a childish trust in whatever they're told and lifelong devotion to Jesus, there's a great deal of freedom in the knowledge that you can change your opinions and priorities.

[midniterider]

What Lilith said ^^

 

From the perspective of being kind: If a non-believer expresses kindness to their believing wife regarding the wife's church-mates, her church, her pastor ... while gently maintaining his boundary from those people ... in other words be nicer than the Christians are ... or how they pretend to be... then it will could erode away her trust in these churchies.

 

It will dawn on your wife that you are being nice just because you really are nice ... and not just because the bible, or church or whatever tells you that you should to get into heaven. Be nice to everyone. For no good reason.

[hereticzero]

My wife and I deconverted within a couple years of each other. She had been a Pentecostal and I was Southern Baptist. Our son has grown up over the years a nonbeliever. Many people as couples are unable to deconvert together or stay deconverted because of stress with other members of a family or religious persecution--being constantly harassed to return to church or even due to threats. Our society is so mixed up as to include religious programming with cable television. They force it on you, the channels are thrown in for free--hundreds of channels. My point being it is getting harder to come out as atheist, even in America you have to be careful. Pick your fights with care. Family seems to take the thought of a family member leaving the church, personally. The religion teaches one must have control of their offspring or kill it. What is taught today is a watered-down version of fundamentalist Christianity barely controlled by secular laws. Even the lunatics are watered-down loons, fundamentally. I know people who leave the religion and then go back just to keep the peace. I used to think they were copping out. No guts. But I've come to believe one can be an atheist and still go to church, though I do not go. A person has to do what he or she has to do if they want to keep their marriage. My marriage of 24 years didn't last. Going to church or not won't affect whether you stay together as a couple. Couples who are die-hard Christians lead the nation in divorces. And honestly, love only lasts so long. You both have to be friends more than lovers. If you can' stand the other's presence in the same room or house, it's time to let it go. One person cannot keep a marriage going when the other wants to leave and have an adventure on their own. Is religion what keeps you together now, a belief to stay together for the sake of children or WWJD? If religion is what keeps you together now, do you think being an atheist is enough to keep a marriage together? You are beating yourself up when you answer with a critique when she asks you for one of the sermon. That's a trap! Maybe find a way to spend time as a family on Sundays visiting friends and relatives far away, or go camping or something to distract from church every week?

[Blood]

"See, the Bible is telling you all this historically accurate stuff so you know you aren't believing in fairy tales..."

 

LOL. I discussed the con of "historical accuracy" in some of my posts last year. The question is: do Bible scholars believe that everything in the Bible is accurate history, and if not, why? The answer is no. They do not believe everything in the Bible is historically accurate; in fact they believe entire books (and everyone in them) are fictional, despite having the veneer of reality (real kings, real cities, set in specific, recognizable time periods). But there is a distinct double-standard that Bible people apply to the gospels and the rest of the Bible. 

 

A great test case is the Book of Judith. 

 

“The book purports to be a historical account. Moreover, it has all the outward trappings of one, including various kinds of dates, numerous names of well-known persons and places, a most of all, a quite believable plot. Typical of genuine historical accounts, Judith includes a number of quite specific dates, and exact periods of time … (but) since Martin Luther, who viewed Judith as a poem and an allegorical passion play, scholars have noted the book’s shocking carelessness with well-established historical and geographical facts … Recently (and rightly) there has been a gradual shift toward a greater appreciation of chaps 1-7, especially as scholars view Judith more as a literary tale rather than a historical novel … most scholars of the last one hundred years have agreed that the author of Judith was concerned more with theology than with history and that he did not intend that his account be taken as describing actual events …” — Carey A. Moore, Judith: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary (Anchor Bible Series 40, 1985)

 

So Bible scholars for the last 100 years have been quite happy to toss The Book of Judith into the rubbish bin of mythology, despite the fact that it seems very real and far more plausible historically than the gospels. But this was the author's intention. According to Moore's analysis, the supposedly realistic portrayal of Judith as being "larger than life" betrays its literary artificiality -- the exact opposite of what Bible scholars say about the gospels. 

 

My advice? Pick up a copy of Moore's book. Read and absorb it. It helps you understand the thought-world of Bible writers, as well as the analytical findings of modern Bible scholars. They are actually readily prepared to admit that most late Biblical figures are legendary, and that the purpose of the books was not to record history, but to teach theological lessons. And if this was true of Judith, it is a hundred times more true in the far more fantastical tales of Jesus. I know that won't help your marriage situation, but it will put you in a better position should these issues come up. 

[Bedouin]

You can't use logic and reason with anyone that clings to religion.  Not possible at all.  Don't argue.  Don't try to persuade.  All you can do is live, and love, by your own principles.

[Wertbag]

My uncle was an atheist  (he died a couple of years ago) and married a Christian lady. They discussed in advance and said they wouldn't force beliefs on each other and would not discuss religion and seemed happy for a few years... until children entered the picture and it all went horribly wrong. She wanted the kids to go to a Christian school while he wanted a public school, she demanded they attend church on Sundays while he didn't go and wanted them to choose. She wanted them to go to camp, to avoid certain music and movies and to avoid having friends who weren't Christian, while he argued every single point. She was also tithing when they were struggling and that drove a further wedge between them.

I don't believe the environment was good for them or their kids and hanging on because they both hoped the other would change just left them locked in a bad relationship. I think he would have separated had his health not deteriorated.

If you are going to church when you don't believe, if you are living a stressful lie, if you are watching your kids be indoctrinated against your wishes at some point you have to say enough. You deserve to be happy and you deserve to feel open to talk to your partner and feel understood and loved. I've personally stayed in a bad relationship far too long hoping to fix the other person, after wasted years I realised you need to be happy now, not basing future happiness on the hope someone may change. Change is hard and that makes it unlikely. Life is too short to be put on hold waiting on "what ifs".

Plan A - can it be fixed? If so work out a plan and timeline. Work towards it but have that end date in mind that if things don't pan out have plan b in mind.

Plan B - If you do have to move on get the plan clear in advance. Talk to a lawyer in secret and get professional advice as to how best to go about it. Consider whether you have friends or family that would help put you up if needed. Consider whether the kids are old enough to understand. Consider your income, bank accounts and home ownership. Take your time to make sure you clearly understand the ramifactions and have plans to mitigate risks.

Never an easy choice but if it is one you make it is always better from a cool calculated place rather than on the red rage of emotions.