Quantum Leap

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Geezer said:

I see that you are from Alabama Penny. I'm in Tennessee. The Memphis area. May I ask what denomination or non-denominational group you affiliate with? I promise not to criticize or make negative remarks about them. I'm simply curious and I would like to get an idea of what your group believes. My background is Southern Baptist 12 years and Church of Christ for 27 years. 

I am not currently in church. I grew up in a Grace church- nondenominational, or Bible church. We are often called hyperdispensationalists and “dry Baptists”. My family for the most part, is Pentecostal. My mother went to the Bible church as a teenager, so my sisters and I were raised in the Bible church. 

 

I went to my grandfather’s Pentecostal church for a while, but I do not accept some of their doctrines. 

[Geezer]

2 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I apologize, I thought you were impugning the intelligence of Christians in general. I am singularly unfit to present an argument pro Christianity. I am no apologist or theologian. 

 

I can say I know God because I have an intimate relationship with Him. I know that what I explain as the Holy Spirit, can be explained as feelings by atheists. I have no proof that it is God and not my own feelings and sensations. I believe it is God. 

 

In spite of what you might believe or have been told you will discover many of the folks here possess a college education in theology. Some were preachers, educators, and leaders in their Churches. What I'm saying is that most of the folks here are not theologically ignorant. They have a great deal of knowledge about the origins and evolution of both the bible and the Christian faith. They speak from knowledge not tradition or beliefs. They are no longer believers because they have studied the history of Christianity and the Bible. I thought you should know that. 

[Jeff]

24 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I can say I know God because I have an intimate relationship with Him. I know that what I explain as the Holy Spirit, can be explained as feelings by atheists. I have no proof that it is God and not my own feelings and sensations. I believe it is God. 

Penny, my partner has always had very strong holy spirit experiences. In fact I used to be a little jealous of how intimate they were when she would describe them to me over the years. 

After she deconverted, she hesitantly attempted some other “spiritual” experiences. She laughs about it now because every single thing she tried felt EXACTLY the same as the years of feeling gods “spirit”. 

Even now she can make those feelings come back if she tries, and she does not believe in any deity now. 

 

Try it sometime. You may be surprised.

[Geezer]

4 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I am not currently in church. I grew up in a Grace church- nondenominational, or Bible church. We are often called hyperdispensationalists and “dry Baptists”. My family for the most part, is Pentecostal. My mother went to the Bible church as a teenager, so my sisters and I were raised in the Bible church. 

 

I went to my grandfather’s Pentecostal church for a while, but I do not accept some of their doctrines. 

 

Thank you so much for that information Penny. I am familiar with the Pentecostal faith. I assume you are not in church now because you've developed some questions and possibly some doubts too. If that is so, then this is a great place for you to be. You will find a lot of good information here. Just about everybody develops questions and doubts about their beliefs at some point in their life. 

 

There are some really smart and nice folks here. If you ask honest questions I promise you that you will receive honest answers. It's not anyone's role here to de-convert you from your faith. I think most of us see our role as one of education. In other words, just to present you with the other side of the coin so to speak. What you do with that information is strictly up to you. 

 

One of our mods Margee was pentecostal. She is the sweetheart of all sweethearts. I know Margee would love to talk with you. 

 

So, is there anything specific on your mind, or do you just want to look around a bit and read some posts? I'm retired so I'm on the board pretty much every day. Feel free to PM me if you want. I'm pretty sure I'm old enough to be your grandfather, so you can ask me anything. 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Yes, but I think the OP is wondering why Christianity did not transform him. I am trying to say that transformation is gradual, and may not happen at all. 

Did christianity transform you?

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Did christianity transform you?

To the extent that I let Christ transform me. 

[sdelsolray]

4 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I think after conversion, a Christian must make decisions, daily, hourly. Some decisions lead to growth. Some lead to stagnation. 

 

 

Most (nearly all?) Christians are not converts.  They are brought up in a particular sect of that religion (or some other religion) via childhood indoctrination from trusted adults.  At least that is how I was exposed to it, and I suspect it was the same for you.

 

All humans, regardless of their world views, religious beliefs or preconceived notions "make decisions, daily, hourly".  For all, some of those decisions lead to growth.  For all, some of those decisions lead to stagnation.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

 

Thank you so much for that information Penny. I am familiar with the Pentecostal faith. I assume you are not in church now because you've developed some questions and possibly some doubts too. If that is so, then this is a great place for you to be. You will find a lot of good information here. Just about everybody develops questions and doubts about their beliefs at some point in their life. 

 

There are some really smart and nice folks here. If you ask honest questions I promise you that you will receive honest answers. It's not anyone's role here to de-convert you from your faith. I think most of us see our role as one of education. In other words, just to present you with the other side of the coin so to speak. What you do with that information is strictly up to you. 

 

One of our mods Margee was pentecostal. She is the sweetheart of all sweethearts. I know Margee would love to talk with you. 

 

So, is there anything specific on your mind, or do you just want to look around a bit and read some posts? I'm retired so I'm on the board pretty much every day. Feel free to PM me if you want. I'm pretty sure I'm old enough to be your grandfather, so you can ask me anything. 

 

Thank you, you are very kind. I am not actually a Pentecostal. I did not mean to give you the wrong idea. I am a Grace believer. 

 

I am not in church due to a number of things, one is that the pastor who took the place of my childhood pastor taught doctrines with which I disagreed. Another is, Grace churches are rather rare- I have been to another, but the pastor is not very interesting and I can not concentrate on his sermons. 

 

The last factor is, I am painfully shy and it is extremely difficult for me to go to another church. 

 

Thank you very much for your offer. I am not questioning my faith- however, I have doubts every day.  The two seem mutually exclusive, I know. 

 

I actually went through a period of atheism in college, years ago. I examined my faith and found it was true. 

 

To be quite frank, I am on this site in an effort to hopefully have my friend talk to me- which is quite silly. I follow him about like a dog, lol. 

[sdelsolray]

4 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

As people get older they gain wisdom just by being alive and discovering how people and living works.

 

Some will attribute this to Jesus while others won't.

 

 

 

 

Yes, many theists, and our new member PenneySernade is an example, will assign agency from normal and mundane life processes to some imaginary sky fairies, who are (not surprisingly) the same imaginary entities contained in their earlier religious indoctrination.  They also assume (pretend is probably a more accurate verb) that many normal and natural events are caused by these same imaginary beings.  These phenomena are simply overactive and misguided pattern recognitions, supported by earlier brain wiring.  

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

To the extent that I let Christ transform me. 

How do you know?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Most (nearly all?) Christians are not converts.  They are brought up in a particular sect of that religion (or some other religion) via childhood indoctrination from trusted adults.  At least that is how I was exposed to it, and I suspect it was the same for you.

 

All humans, regardless of their world views, religious beliefs or preconceived notions "make decisions, daily, hourly".  For all, some of those decisions lead to growth.  For all, some of those decisions lead to stagnation.

This is where I must disagree and sound rather snobbish. People are not Christians unless they have been converted. A person can be born into a Christian family, but this does not make one a Christian. Christianity is an individual choice. I was converted at age 12. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

How do you know?

I will have to get into a long, drawn out history to fully explain it. Before my conversion, I was suicidal and homicidal. Now, I am neither. It will sound strange that a 12 year old child was homicidal, but I most assuredly was. 

[sdelsolray]

9 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

This is where I must disagree and sound rather snobbish. People are not Christians unless they have been converted. A person can be born into a Christian family, but this does not make one a Christian. Christianity is an individual choice. I was converted at age 12. 

 

Fair enough.  You and I have different views or perspectives on how a young child becomes a Christian.  However, we are talking past each other a bit.  You contend a person cannot become a Christian until they are "converted".  You end it there without discussion of how or why that occurs.

 

I contend that a person (usually as a young child - your testimony is evidence of that) becomes a Christian thorough religious indoctrination by trusted adults, and I will add to that the influences of peer pressure (e.g., didn't you profess you gave yourself to Jesus (or something similar) to those around you and wasn't that doctrinally expected to become a Christian within that group of humans?).

 

How is it a "choice" if indoctrination and expectations of those around you (as well as the particular religious dogma) preceded and surrounded you, particularly when you were only 12 years old, before your brain has fully formed, before rational and critical thinking skills developed and before you were no longer dependent upon the very persons who indoctrinated you?

 

I understand now why you used the word "converted".  Do you understand why I have used the terms "indoctrination" and "peer pressure"? 

[Geezer]

30 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I will have to get into a long, drawn out history to fully explain it. Before my conversion, I was suicidal and homicidal. Now, I am neither. It will sound strange that a 12 year old child was homicidal, but I most assuredly was. 

 

I realized some time ago that there are people that simply must have God or a god in their lives. Penny, after reading your post I don't think this is a good place for you to be. It sounds like your friend wants to get you away from religion and is frustrated with your lack of cooperation. 

 

We have lots of examples on this site where things aren't working out well for unequally yoked folks. If your friend can't accept you & your beliefs then maybe they aren't really your friend.

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Geezer said:

 

I realized some time ago that there are people that simply must have God or a god in their lives. Penny, after reading your post I don't think this is a good place for you to be. It sounds like your friend wants to get you away from religion and is frustrated with your lack of cooperation. 

 

We have lots of examples on this site where things aren't working out well for unequally yoked folks. If your friend can't accept you & your beliefs then maybe they aren't really your friend.

 

 

I thought about this, too. Like he wants me to become an atheist. The funny thing is, I accept him no matter what he believes- but am not accepted because I am a Christian. It is usually the other way around. 

[sdelsolray]

37 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I will have to get into a long, drawn out history to fully explain it. Before my conversion, I was suicidal and homicidal. Now, I am neither. It will sound strange that a 12 year old child was homicidal, but I most assuredly was. 

 

You do not need to lay out that unfortunate personal history.  Many here are quite sensitive to inaccurate use of the words "know" and "believe".  To you, they likely mean the same thing, or are quite similar.  To others, myself included, they are quite different and do not overlap.  Knowledge ("gnosis") is quite different from belief ("likelihood, hope, expectation").  Conflating the two will generate reaction around this forum.  I suspect you are conflating the two terms.

 

And this is all before the discussion of the term "faith", which is a subset of "belief".

[sdelsolray]

1 minute ago, PennySerenade said:

I thought about this, too. Like he wants me to become an atheist. The funny thing is, I accept him no matter what he believes- but am not accepted because I am a Christian. It is usually the other way around. 

 

Loose the dude.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

Loose the dude.

I believe I did “unloosen” him.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

 

You do not need to lay out that unfortunate personal history.  Many here are quite sensitive to inaccurate use of the words "know" and "believe".  To you, they likely mean the same thing, or are quite similar.  To others, myself included, they are quite different and do not overlap.  Knowledge ("gnosis") is quite different from belief ("likelihood, hope, expectation").  Conflating the two will generate reaction around this forum.  I suspect you are conflating the two terms.

 

And this is all before the discussion of the term "faith", which is a subset of "belief".

I say know as in experiential knowledge. I realize people who do not believe in God will say spiritual experiences are due to sensations and something created inside the person. 

[LogicalFallacy]

4 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Yes, I do. 

 

Does God talk to you?

 

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Hi @PennySerenade. Welcome. 

 

Oh, and I love the “real christianity” comment.

You “know” god and you also know what “real christianity” is. You are a remarkable person. 

 

Might be a bit of no true Scotsman coming through in the 'real Christianity' comment eh?  

 

3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I can say I know God because I have an intimate relationship with Him. I know that what I explain as the Holy Spirit, can be explained as feelings by atheists. I have no proof that it is God and not my own feelings and sensations. I believe it is God. 

 

But do you? Ultimately your intimate relationship is feelies that you attribute to the being that you've been indoctrinated to believe in, possibly since childhood.

 

Intimate in real terms is being able to touch, feel, converse with a person and that relationship able to be witnessed by others in real describable terms. Now you've acknowledged already that you can't prove your experience is not God to us, but have you considered that what you experience is because you've been taught to experience it? I remember similar things when I was a Christian.

[LogicalFallacy]

1 hour ago, PennySerenade said:

This is where I must disagree and sound rather snobbish. People are not Christians unless they have been converted. A person can be born into a Christian family, but this does not make one a Christian. Christianity is an individual choice. I was converted at age 12. 

 

Semantics. Conversion in the normal use of the word implies a change of belief from one set of beliefs to another.

 

What you describe is a person, especially the young, will at around the age you indicate (early teens) be encouraged by the religion to accept Jesus as their saviour etc and so on. Some describe this as a turning point or a conversion, when all it really is, is a reaffirmation or stronger commitment to their existing religious beliefs.

[sdelsolray]

15 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I say know as in experiential knowledge. I realize people who do not believe in God will say spiritual experiences are due to sensations and something created inside the person. 

 

The actual empirical evidence supports your second sentence, although that evidence does not have the capability of belief in any gods, and whether the human presenting that evidence believes in gods or not is simply not relevant.  Accordingly, your internal belief that "I realize people who do not believe in God will say spiritual experiences are due..." is somewhat nonsensical and may exhibit confirmation and expectation biases.

 

Is your "knowledge" solely based on experiential (i.e., posteriori) knowledge and not, for example, based on a priori knowledge?

 

Do you equate you "knowledge" (whatever its form) with "spiritual experiences"?  Why?  How does your mere belief in substantive dualism relate to knowledge, in any form?

 

 

[realityrunt]

3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I apologize, I thought you were impugning the intelligence of Christians in general. I am singularly unfit to present an argument pro Christianity. I am no apologist or theologian. 

 

I can say I know God because I have an intimate relationship with Him. I know that what I explain as the Holy Spirit, can be explained as feelings by atheists. I have no proof that it is God and not my own feelings and sensations. I believe it is God. 

Why would god need to communicate with you through feelings? The god of the Bible used to talk to the prophets and communicate through visions, and dreams. Far from the feeling god sensation that so many Christians are absorbed by.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

Why would god need to communicate with you through feelings? The god of the Bible used to talk to the prophets and communicate through visions, and dreams. Far from the feeling god sensation that so many Christians are absorbed by.

Because this is the method He has chosen for this age. 

[realityrunt]

23 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Because this is the method He has chosen for this age. 

Ok Penny, I don't think you understand the sheer hopelessness of waiting for a god to never rescue you. What is the good of all the promise's in the Bible, if they don't stack up to a hill of beans.

 

It is clear in the Bible that you can't do anything without god, and if he won't do anything about you, you're left up shit creek.