primaryzero

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3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

This is where I must disagree and sound rather snobbish. People are not Christians unless they have been converted. A person can be born into a Christian family, but this does not make one a Christian. Christianity is an individual choice. I was converted at age 12. 

 

If you had decided against Christianity would your parents have minded? Are they active Christians?

 

How do you define conversion? Baptism?

 

 

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6 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

If you want to call Him Zeus, I don’t think it much matters. He’s got so many names. 

 

I'm sorry to jump in late. Doesn't the Bible say that there is only one name under Heaven where salvation can be found?  Like maybe in Acts 4:12?  Yes. Yes it does.

 

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5 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

I'm sorry to jump in late. Doesn't the Bible say that there is only one name under Heaven where salvation can be found?  Like maybe in Acts 4:12?  Yes. Yes it does.

 

It is referring to Christ. 

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6 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

If you had decided against Christianity would your parents have minded? Are they active Christians?

 

How do you define conversion? Baptism?

 

 

They would have been upset. My mother is a somewhat active Christian, my father is not. I know people who are not Christians and their family members are. 

 

I have never been baptized, so it would not be that. I define it as a time when you trust Christ as your personal Saviour. It can be accompanied by a spiritual event, but may not be.

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6 hours ago, primaryzero said:

Ok Penny, I don't think you understand the sheer hopelessness of waiting for a god to never rescue you. What is the good of all the promise's in the Bible, if they don't stack up to a hill of beans.

 

It is clear in the Bible that you can't do anything without god, and if he won't do anything about you, you're left up shit creek.

I do not expect Him to rescue me from my problems. He has rescued me from Hell. That is enough. 

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7 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I do not expect Him to rescue me from my problems. He has rescued me from Hell. That is enough. 

Penny, you might want to do some research into the origins oh “hell” as christians now think of it. 

I know that I was very surprised to find out just how recent that concept actually is, and how the idea evolved. 

The biggest parts of my deconversion probably came from digging for more information about my beliefs to strengthen where I had questions. 

It is stunning what you will find out about how christianity has evolved from the various early sects of believers. 

Also stunning are the things you will NOT find. 

Good luck!  I know you have a lot of irons-in-the-fire here at the moment. 

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7 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

They would have been upset. My mother is a somewhat active Christian, my father is not. I know people who are not Christians and their family members are. 

 

I have never been baptized, so it would not be that. I define it as a time when you trust Christ as your personal Saviour. It can be accompanied by a spiritual event, but may not be.

 

Does your mother feel that you being a Christian is a personal choice? Do you feel that your children should be allowed to make their own choice to become or not become a Christian?

 

During my baptism I did note that no spiritual event occurred. I didn't necessarily expect one, though. After a while though, I began drinking the Kool Aid of Jesus, walking the walk, talking the talk ... I prayed, believed, read the bible. I'd say I was converted. Still, no spiritual events, save the pentecostal euphoria that really can be generated outside of Christianity.

 

 

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10 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I do not expect Him to rescue me from my problems. He has rescued me from Hell. That is enough. 

Which he created. So technically he's saving you from his own torture device. I mean you just admitted to that.

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12 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

It is referring to Christ. 

 

...you don't say.

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2 hours ago, primaryzero said:

Which he created. So technically he's saving you from his own torture device. I mean you just admitted to that.

I don’t think Hell is a torture device. It was created for Satan and the demons. Man was never even meant to be there. I believe it will be a purgative and eventually, everyone will be in Heaven. I just believe some people avoid Hell altogether if the acknowledge Jesus’ gift, here (and children and mentally retarded adults). 

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32 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I don’t think Hell is a torture device. It was created for Satan and the demons. Man was never even meant to be there. I believe it will be a purgative and eventually, everyone will be in Heaven. I just believe some people avoid Hell altogether if the acknowledge Jesus’ gift, here (and children and mentally retarded adults). 

It was never meant for humans, as it slipped gods mind. That he didn't know before he created the universe he'd be putting people there?

 

And why exactly do children get into heaven? How do they bypass the grace system of god. What, they can get into heaven regardless of faith in Jesus.

 

Please be consistent, children go to hell, because they are born dead in there sins.

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45 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

It was never meant for humans, as it slipped gods mind. That he didn't know before he created the universe he'd be putting people there?

 

And why exactly do children get into heaven? How do they bypass the grace system of god. What, they can get into heaven regardless of faith in Jesus.

 

Please be consistent, children go to hell, because they are born dead in there sins.

Children never go to Hell. They are innocent- not sinless, but innocent. They are not aware of sin, neither are mentally retarded people. 

 

Hell was created for Satan. God does not want anyone there. It was not His desire. 

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4 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Children never go to Hell. They are innocent- not sinless, but innocent. They are not aware of sin, neither are mentally retarded people. 

 

Hell was created for Satan. God does not want anyone there. It was not His desire. 

Well let's say you're right and children and mentally retarded people do not go to hell. Like I said, how do they get in without faith in Jesus (Which is a prerequisite for getting to heaven) Basically god wouldn't require faith under those circumstances, which would mean that there's a serious loophole in gods saving grace through faith.

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8 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Children never go to Hell.

 

 

Prove it.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

Well let's say you're right and children and mentally retarded people do not go to hell. Like I said, how do they get in without faith in Jesus (Which is a prerequisite for getting to heaven) Basically god wouldn't require faith under those circumstances, which would mean that there's a serious loophole in gods saving grace through faith.

I do not know how Jesus may appear to them. Perhaps as their mothers. I don’t know, but I know children have faith. They believe in many things, like Santa Claus. Perhaps their faith in Santa Claus saves them, or their faith in their parents, or in snow prayers. I know that they do not go to Hell. Jesus said for such is the Kingdom of Heaven, and we must become like them. Jesus said that in Heaven, the children always see the Father. 

 

You forget that I believe in eventual Universal Reconciliation and the love and mercy of God will redeem us all. 

 

Let us say it is a loophole, I will say it is a loophole for children and mentally retarded. They never come to realize they need a Saviour. They are saved by default. 

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8 minutes ago, buffettphan said:

 

Prove it.

 

 

 

I can not prove it anymore than I can prove anything that I believe. I could give you some Bible verses, but they don’t count, I don’t reckon.

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21 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I can not prove it anymore than I can prove anything that I believe. I could give you some Bible verses, but they don’t count, I don’t reckon.

 

Correct, bible verses don't count.  People use the bible to "prove" children do and do not go to hell.    You, like all christians, believe what you want to believe, regardless of evidence or sound thinking.

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19 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I can not prove it anymore than I can prove anything that I believe. I could give you some Bible verses, but they don’t count, I don’t reckon.

     What makes you think bible verses don't count?  Of course they count.

 

     They count in the same sense as quoting from any book counts.  Why does Harry Potter do this or that?  Well, we should look it up, right?  What it doesn't do is actually prove that Harry Potter is real or that Hogwarts is real either even though it is in the books.  For that we'd need a little something more.

 

     So hell or kids in hell?  Bible verses count.  Does this mean that hell is a real place that kids could actually go to?  We'd need a little something more to establish that.

 

          mwc

 

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Just now, buffettphan said:

 

Correct, bible verses don't count.  People use the bible to "prove" children do and do not go to hell.    You, like all christians, believe what you want to believe, regardless of evidence or sound thinking.

     Ah, see, we disagree.  I say they do count.  They just usually don't matter.  And as you point out they have the nasty problem of contradicting themselves or being open to vague interpretation.

 

          mwc

 

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3 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Ah, see, we disagree.  I say they do count.  They just usually don't matter.  And as you point out they have the nasty problem of contradicting themselves or being open to vague interpretation.

 

          mwc

 

  

And I almost made the same comment you made about Harry Potter.....:lol:

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19 minutes ago, buffettphan said:

  

And I almost made the same comment you made about Harry Potter.....:lol:

     His spirit dwells within us.  Lets bow our heads in prayer.

 

     :)

 

          mwc

 

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1 hour ago, PennySerenade said:

I can not prove it anymore than I can prove anything that I believe. 

...

Should I be interested in your mere beliefs?

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Penny, I find your beliefs utterly ridiculous.  I do not believe in life after death, so there is nothing to be "saved" from -- we all meet the same fate regardless of what we believed in life.

 

I also can't fathom why you or any other believer thinks that they can trust a god that would deliberately create a place of torture, and that requires people to accept a proxy human sacrifice in order to avoid being sent there.  That is immoral and utterly insane through and through.

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8 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

Should I be interested in your mere beliefs?

I do not see why you should be interested in anything you do not wish to interest you. I’m not interested in football, for example. People are free to be interested in anything they choose.

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5 hours ago, Astreja said:

Penny, I find your beliefs utterly ridiculous.  I do not believe in life after death, so there is nothing to be "saved" from -- we all meet the same fate regardless of what we believed in life.

 

I also can't fathom why you or any other believer thinks that they can trust a god that would deliberately create a place of torture, and that requires people to accept a proxy human sacrifice in order to avoid being sent there.  That is immoral and utterly insane through and through.

Yes, I know. The Bible actually says that the gospel is foolishness to those who do not believe. It makes sense, I find Islam foolish. That is the way beliefs work, I suppose. I do not mind being considered a fool. 

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