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Goodbye Jesus

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9 hours ago, mwc said:

     What makes you think bible verses don't count?  Of course they count.

 

     They count in the same sense as quoting from any book counts.  Why does Harry Potter do this or that?  Well, we should look it up, right?  What it doesn't do is actually prove that Harry Potter is real or that Hogwarts is real either even though it is in the books.  For that we'd need a little something more.

 

     So hell or kids in hell?  Bible verses count.  Does this mean that hell is a real place that kids could actually go to?  We'd need a little something more to establish that.

 

          mwc

 

If it means no more to you than Harry Potter, then how would the Bible prove or disprove anything? 

 

I honestly don’t understand what it is you are asking me to do. If you were a Christian, I would talk about verses that demonstrate Jesus’ love and compassion especially for children. As the Bible is not really God’s word in your opinion, then using the Bible as proof would not matter to you. 

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9 hours ago, buffettphan said:

 

Correct, bible verses don't count.  People use the bible to "prove" children do and do not go to hell.    You, like all christians, believe what you want to believe, regardless of evidence or sound thinking.

I do not know any Christians who believe that children go to Hell. This is something that I have never experienced. Do you know Christians who believe children go to Hell?

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1 hour ago, PennySerenade said:

I do not know any Christians who believe that children go to Hell. This is something that I have never experienced. Do you know Christians who believe children go to Hell?

The Calvinist denomination I used to belong to believed this staunchly and defended this doctrine in debate. They taught that every baby, every child, is a little bundle of depravity that will go to hell unless it is regenerated. Even the protections of the covenant via infant baptism did not include regeneration. 

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3 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I do not know any Christians who believe that children go to Hell. This is something that I have never experienced. Do you know Christians who believe children go to Hell?

 

Yes I do.   They are of the Calvinist persuasion.   

 

As a Christian Universalist, do you believe that anyone goes to hell?   I googled Christian Universalism and found this.  https://carm.org/christian-universalism   Is it an accurate description of your beliefs?   If you look at the website, you will find the  conclusion states:

 

 

Quote

Conclusion
"Christian Universalism" really isn't Christian and it is meshed with many other unorthodox and erroneous teachings. This belief system should be avoided.

 

 

 

Personally speaking, if you really want the christian label, I suppose Universalism/New Age Christianity is the way to go.  For me, it was my stepping stone to atheism.  I can't believe nonsense* and emotional manipulation* hasn't worked on me for decades.

 

* = religion

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You seem like a nice person and unlike most christians who visit here, at least you're not damning us all to hell.   Cheers!   :)  

 

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11 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

If it means no more to you than Harry Potter, then how would the Bible prove or disprove anything? 

 

I honestly don’t understand what it is you are asking me to do. If you were a Christian, I would talk about verses that demonstrate Jesus’ love and compassion especially for children. As the Bible is not really God’s word in your opinion, then using the Bible as proof would not matter to you. 

     Children never go to hell.

 

     Everyone knows you can't prove that.  Even you.

 

     How does this relate to something like Harry Potter or any other story like Star Wars?  Because you have to look to the story to support itself.  Why does Luke go agree to go to the Death Star with Ben?  Well, he doesn't.  After his aunt and uncle are killed he agrees to go with Ben to learn the force (to Alderaan), it just so happens that it was destroyed and there is a space station there that is the Death Star.

 

     Is that true?  You bet.  Is it real?  Not at all.  That doesn't mean we can't have fun discussing this fictional world.  I do enjoy Star Wars.

 

     So go ahead and quote all the bible verses saying jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world.  And then what?  Not one of those verses says those children won't, or can't, go to hell.  So the story doesn't support the idea that hell isn't for children.  I don't have to believe any of it but it does have to support the assertion.  It has to be in the story, right?  Because that's all we've really got.

 

          mwc

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Children never go to hell.

 

     Everyone knows you can't prove that.  Even you.

 

     How does this relate to something like Harry Potter or any other story like Star Wars?  Because you have to look to the story to support itself.  Why does Luke go agree to go to the Death Star with Ben?  Well, he doesn't.  After his aunt and uncle are killed he agrees to go with Ben to learn the force (to Alderaan), it just so happens that it was destroyed and there is a space station there that is the Death Star.

 

     Is that true?  You bet.  Is it real?  Not at all.  That doesn't mean we can't have fun discussing this fictional world.  I do enjoy Star Wars.

 

     So go ahead and quote all the bible verses saying jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world.  And then what?  Not one of those verses says those children won't, or can't, go to hell.  So the story doesn't support the idea that hell isn't for children.  I don't have to believe any of it but it does have to support the assertion.  It has to be in the story, right?  Because that's all we've really got.

 

          mwc

 

 

 

Would you like me to quote verses, then? I have never seen any Star Wars movies. I have read the Harry Potter series and seen most of the movies. The Star Wars analogy is lost on me.

 

Matthew 18 is called the child text. It is a beautiful sermon. In verse 10, Jesus says this “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in Heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven.”

 

Here is the continuation-

 

“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

 

And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 

 

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in Heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 

 

Personally, I believe Jesus comes to retrieve every baby and child that dies. 

 

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3 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Would you like me to quote verses, then? I have never seen any Star Wars movies. I have read the Harry Potter series and seen most of the movies. The Star Wars analogy is lost on me.

 

Matthew 18 is called the child text. It is a beautiful sermon. In verse 10, Jesus says this “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in Heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven.”

 

Here is the continuation-

 

“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

 

And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 

 

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in Heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 

 

Personally, I believe Jesus comes to retrieve every baby and child that dies. 

 

     Powerful stuff.

 

     So *if* he finds that lost sheep then there's lots of rejoicing.

 

     What happens *if* he doesn't find that lost sheep?

 

     I mean the text does use "if" right in it.  "And IF so be that he find it" (emphasis mine).  Not "when" he finds it.  Nothing definite.

 

     Just like the shepherd, god wants all the sheep to make it but sometimes they don't.

 

     It would be nice if jesus made a more absolute, definitive, statement as opposed to an indefinite analogy.  Because, as it is with that little if clause in there, he might get that one lost sheep only sometimes not every time even though he might really want to get them all.

 

          mwc

 

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10 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Powerful stuff.

 

     So *if* he finds that lost sheep then there's lots of rejoicing.

 

     What happens *if* he doesn't find that lost sheep?

 

     I mean the text does use "if" right in it.  "And IF so be that he find it" (emphasis mine).  Not "when" he finds it.  Nothing definite.

 

     Just like the shepherd, god wants all the sheep to make it but sometimes they don't.

 

     It would be nice if jesus made a more absolute, definitive, statement as opposed to an indefinite analogy.  Because, as it is with that little if clause in there, he might get that one lost sheep only sometimes not every time even though he might really want to get them all.

 

          mwc

 

Alright, I’m glad you asked. Jesus talks about His sheep. John 10:27-30

 

”My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”

 

So, the sheep can wander astray- and do quite often, but never so far as to fall out of God’s hand. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Alright, I’m glad you asked. Jesus talks about His sheep. John 10:27-30

 

”My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”

 

So, the sheep can wander astray- and do quite often, but never so far as to fall out of God’s hand. 

 

 

     Another analogy.

 

     So who are those sheep that know his voice?  Clearly it's not all sheep.

 

          mwc

 

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2 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Would you like me to quote verses, then? I have never seen any Star Wars movies. I have read the Harry Potter series and seen most of the movies. The Star Wars analogy is lost on me.

 

Matthew 18 is called the child text. It is a beautiful sermon. In verse 10, Jesus says this “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in Heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in Heaven.”

 

Here is the continuation-

 

“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

 

And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 

 

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in Heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 

 

Personally, I believe Jesus comes to retrieve every baby and child that dies. 

 

I used to raise sheep.  Believe me when I tell you it is not love that compels the shepherd to go after the one that is lost.  Sheep are raised for two purposes: wool and meat.  They taste better if you name them.  

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19 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I used to raise sheep.  Believe me when I tell you it is not love that compels the shepherd to go after the one that is lost.  Sheep are raised for two purposes: wool and meat.  They taste better if you name them.  

Alright, but you are not Jesus. 

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On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 7:49 PM, PennySerenade said:

Children never go to Hell. They are innocent- not sinless, but innocent. They are not aware of sin, neither are mentally retarded people. 

 

Hell was created for Satan. God does not want anyone there. It was not His desire. 

 

PennySerenade, what do you think of what Paul states in Romans 1:18-20?  There are varying interpretations, but it is often cited as evidence that all people are guilty when it comes to sin, with no excuses for anyone.  Under these interpretations, adults with mental disabilities do not seem to get an exception.   

 

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (NIV)

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On 12/7/2017 at 5:04 AM, PennySerenade said:

It is referring to Christ. 

 

I don't want to distract from the good conversations going on here. Some of the stuff you believe sounds new agey to me. The Bible says Jesus (or whatever it is in whatever language), but obviously one certain guy.  I got the feeling you were talking more about the "Christ spirit" or something. You know that "Christ" is a title and not a name, right? 

 

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14 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

I don't want to distract from the good conversations going on here. Some of the stuff you believe sounds new agey to me. The Bible says Jesus (or whatever it is in whatever language), but obviously one certain guy.  I got the feeling you were talking more about the "Christ spirit" or something. You know that "Christ" is a title and not a name, right? 

 

Yes, I know that. Christ means “The Annointed One”. 

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Just now, PennySerenade said:

Yes, I know that. Christ means “The Annointed One”. 

 

Then Zeus could be the anointed one?  I could call upon that name and be 'saved'?  It just sounded like you weren't talking specifically about the Jesus of the New Testament Christian Bible.

 

Sorry if I was wrong. 

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21 minutes ago, readyforchange said:

 

PennySerenade, what do you think of what Paul states in Romans 1:18-20?  There are varying interpretations, but it is often cited as evidence that all people are guilty when it comes to sin, with no excuses for anyone.  Under these interpretations, adults with mental disabilities do not seem to get an exception.   

 

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (NIV)

Can mentally challenged people understand concepts of sin? I don’t think they can. “...being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

 

If a person can not understand, the person is excused- be it a baby, child, or mentally challenged adult. 

 

 

 

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Now I know why Jesus is asleep at the wheel of the universe, he won't stop counting all his sheep.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

Then Zeus could be the anointed one?  I could call upon that name and be 'saved'?  It just sounded like you weren't talking specifically about the Jesus of the New Testament Christian Bible.

 

Sorry if I was wrong. 

I was talking about Jesus from the Bible. 

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Just now, primaryzero said:

Now I know why Jesus is asleep at the wheel of the universe, he won't stop counting all his sheep.

 

 

If He is counting His sheep, it means He is not asleep. 

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1 minute ago, PennySerenade said:

Can mentally challenged people understand concepts of sin? I don’t think they can. “...being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

 

If a person can not understand, the person is excused- be it a baby, child, or mentally challenged adult. 

 

 

 

Sin is what your nature is, it's not something you understand first then do. You're born in a fallen sinful state, due to the actions of Adam and Eve.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

If He is counting His sheep, it means He is not asleep. 

I wouldn't be talking like this about him, if he was real Penny.

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18 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Yes, I know. The Bible actually says that the gospel is foolishness to those who do not believe.

 

The Bible also mentions a Talking Snake™ (Genesis 3), but no believer has ever been able to get me one.

 

The "believe this nonsense because it's actually true" mentality is one of the reasons I consider Christianity to be a non-trivial threat to human development, and by extension to the future of mankind.  I really think that you should sit down and seriously consider why you don't mind being considered a fool, as that seems rather psychologically unhealthy.

 

 

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     @PennySerenade I'll give a hint to my question: Ezekiel 34:11-31.

 

     The Good Shepherd shtick had already been done and was already in the culture.  Ezekiel, I think, gives a much nicer discourse on the whole thing.  But it's clear not every sheep is created equal.  Not every sheep makes the cut.  And this is continued in this updated version (or versions).

 

      So which sheep are we talking about?  I'm pretty sure that the two pericopes are about two different sets of sheep (like many analogies it's suited to the specific situation).

 

     I suppose I could operate on the assumption that all sheep are children but that really plays poorly when Mathew starts in about separating the sheep and the goats.  I suppose that not all sheep analogs are equal in that fashion so maybe I won't work on that assumption.

 

          mwc

 

 

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6 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Alright, but you are not Jesus. 

Can you prove that?  As the scripture says "As you've done it unto the least of these, you've done it into me."

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3 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Can you prove that?  As the scripture says "As you've done it unto the least of these, you've done it into me."

You have not ascended and are not perfect. 

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