Quantum Leap

[midniterider]

22 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

I think my definition of religion is different from yours. In my mind, religion means you have to do something. In Christianity, you have to believe something.

 

Believe = Do.

 

Believing requires effort.

[Orbit]

2 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

You define God as a myth. I do not- so we absolutely get to define words and concepts ourselves. 

 

What qualifies you to define God?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, midniterider said:

 

Well, there's banter on this site now and again about scripture saying 'Faith, not Works' .... vs 'Faith without works is dead' .... I kind of think Faith 'is' Works. It's a personal work. Mental work. As a believing Christian in the 90s I did think of him...but after a while Jesusy thought became a major annoyance. Jesus did not set my mind free. He locked it up with silly rules. So I said bye bye.

 

One of my relatives must really love Jesus because she turns every conversation into a Jesus conversation. I consider her it to be her obsession. Her obsession with Jesus may be fine with her but I'd rather not listen to it.

If you’d rather not listen to it, it is not kind or loving for her to go on about it. So I would say she does not love Jesus as she should, or she would be more loving toward you. The best Christians love people. 

 

I am not intimating that non Christians do not love people- only that love is the foremost subject in Christianity. 

 

I do not think of faith as a work. 

 

Yes, there are Christians who advocate works to maintain faith, and those who do not. The amazing thing is, most of us can agree to disagree, and not call each other apostates (although there are some that do, of course). 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Orbit said:

 

What qualifies you to define God?

The same thing that qualifies you to define God. I think, therefore I am. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

Believe = Do.

 

Believing requires effort.

I don’t know if it does or not. 

[Orbit]

Just now, PennySerenade said:

The same thing that qualifies you to define God. I think, therefore I am. 

 

I don't define God. I recognize mythology when I see it, and I say your God as presented in the Bible doesn't exist. That's not a definition, it's a refutation.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

Penny, you've been speaking with great conviction here about what you believe. It is clear that you have your own personal version of Christianity which you hold to be correct, or at least more correct than other versions. This is tantamount to making a direct claim that you know the will of God. I would like to know what makes you qualified to make such a claim. 

Nothing qualifies me anymore than anyone else is qualified. There are many people who believe they know the truth. 

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Orbit said:

 

I don't define God. I recognize mythology when I see it, and I say your God as presented in the Bible doesn't exist. That's not a definition, it's a refutation.

You are defining Christianity as mythology, I define it as truth. 

[Orbit]

1 minute ago, PennySerenade said:

Nothing qualifies me anymore than anyone else is qualified. There are many people who believe they know the truth. 

 

 

 

Then why are you here pontificating about what Christianity "really is"?

[disillusioned]

3 minutes ago, Orbit said:

 

Then why are you here pontificating about what Christianity "really is"?

 

This exactly. If you are not qualified to speak for God, then what are you doing here?

[realityrunt]

5 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

If you’d rather not listen to it, it is not kind or loving for her to go on about it. So I would say she does not love Jesus as she should, or she would be more loving toward you. The best Christians love people. 

 

I am not intimating that non Christians do not love people- only that love is the foremost subject in Christianity. 

 

I do not think of faith as a work. 

 

Yes, there are Christians who advocate works to maintain faith, and those who do not. The amazing thing is, most of us can agree to disagree, and not call each other apostates (although there are some that do, of course). 

You're no Christian Penny.

 

You have to be careful of yourself and your own doctrine.

 

1 Timothy 4:16

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

You've made it clear you care nothing about how you appear as a Christian, or your doctrine. These are the things that save us (The Bible says) so basically you're damning yourself and us to your hell with your bullshit theology.

[realityrunt]

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, primaryzero said:

You're no Christian Penny.

 

You have to be careful of yourself and your own doctrine.

 

1 Timothy 4:16

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

You've made it clear you care nothing about how you appear as a Christian, or your doctrine. These are the things that save us (The Bible says) so basically you're damning yourself and us to your hell with your bullshit theology.

Thank you for your assessment. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Orbit said:

 

Then why are you here pontificating about what Christianity "really is"?

I am here because someone who was my friend said I was insulated and isolated and I should not just be in an echo chamber around only Christians. I told him I am neither an apologist nor a theologian and not really good at defending Christianity. 

 

Plus, I daresay all of you are much more intelligent than I am, so I am rather intimidated. Maybe I am trying too hard to say what I believe while not sounding stupid and should just say what I believe. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, disillusioned said:

 

This exactly. If you are not qualified to speak for God, then what are you doing here?

Someone asked me to come here. I guess he thinks Christianity is bad for me, so wants me to believe something different. 

[disillusioned]

22 minutes ago, PennySerenade said:

Someone asked me to come here. I guess he thinks Christianity is bad for me, so wants me to believe something different. 

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ask why you were on the forum. From my perspective, you are more than welcome to stay. The more the merrier. What I meant to ask was, what are you doing here, right now, in this thread?

 

You have made a number of statements here about what real Christianity is and is not. You have stated that you know God personally. You have stated that people are not Christians unless they are converted. You have stated that children never go to hell, and that hell is not eternal. And you have stated that you can't prove any of this, and that you have no authority to claim to know the will of God.

 

Taken together, all of this amounts to a fervent confession of faith. It seems like all that you are really saying in this thread is "I believe!!!!". Congratulations. I'm happy for you. I really am. You seem like a nice person, and evidently you find a great deal of comfort in your faith. I wouldn't take it away from you, even if I could. Believe me, losing the faith is not easy, and it doesn't always lead you to a happier place. So if you're happy, and not hurting anyone, then from my perspective you are more than welcome to keep your faith. But here's the thing: when you start professing your faith on ex-C, you had better be prepared to defend it. Otherwise you will have to accept that no one will find you convincing, and many will find you tiresome. And if you are not interested in defending your faith, and you are not interested in convincing anyone, then why are you professing your faith?

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ask why you were on the forum. From my perspective, you are more than welcome to stay. The more the merrier. What I meant to ask was, what are you doing here, right now, in this thread?

 

You have made a number of statements here about what real Christianity is and is not. You have stated that you know God personally. You have stated that people are not Christians unless they are converted. You have stated that children never go to hell, and that hell is not eternal. And you have stated that you can't prove any of this, and that you have no authority to claim to know the will of God.

 

Taken together, all of this amounts to a fervent confession of faith. It seems like all that you are really saying in this thread is "I believe!!!!". Congratulations. I'm happy for you. I really am. You seem like a nice person, and evidently you find a great deal of comfort in your faith. I wouldn't take it away from you, even if I could. Believe me, losing the faith is not easy, and it doesn't always lead you to a happier place. So if you're happy, and not hurting anyone, then from my perspective you are more than welcome to keep your faith. But here's the thing: when you start professing your faith on ex-C, you had better be prepared to defend it. Otherwise you will have to accept that no one will find you convincing, and many will find you tiresome. And if you are not interested in defending your faith, and you are not interested in convincing anyone, then why are you professing your faith?

Oh, I misunderstood. It is not so much that I am uninterested in defending my faith. It is more a case of being unable to defend it. I am convinced that arguing about it is not the way to go about evangelism. I think evangelism should be personal, as in sharing one’s faith with a friend. 

 

I suppose I am tiresome, it is not the first time people have found me so, lol. 

 

But thanks for your very nice post. Perhaps my friend wants me to read the opinions of ex Christians rather than to argue about my own. 

[mwc]

@PennySerenade

 

     Just thought I'd pop in again to ask about them there sheep.

 

     Which sheep are which and all that?

 

     You know, since I showed that all sheep aren't the same in every sheep analogy and all that.  I made that nice post about.

 

          mwc

 

[realityrunt]

1 hour ago, disillusioned said:

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ask why you were on the forum. From my perspective, you are more than welcome to stay. The more the merrier. What I meant to ask was, what are you doing here, right now, in this thread?

 

You have made a number of statements here about what real Christianity is and is not. You have stated that you know God personally. You have stated that people are not Christians unless they are converted. You have stated that children never go to hell, and that hell is not eternal. And you have stated that you can't prove any of this, and that you have no authority to claim to know the will of God.

 

Taken together, all of this amounts to a fervent confession of faith. It seems like all that you are really saying in this thread is "I believe!!!!". Congratulations. I'm happy for you. I really am. You seem like a nice person, and evidently you find a great deal of comfort in your faith. I wouldn't take it away from you, even if I could. Believe me, losing the faith is not easy, and it doesn't always lead you to a happier place. So if you're happy, and not hurting anyone, then from my perspective you are more than welcome to keep your faith. But here's the thing: when you start professing your faith on ex-C, you had better be prepared to defend it. Otherwise you will have to accept that no one will find you convincing, and many will find you tiresome. And if you are not interested in defending your faith, and you are not interested in convincing anyone, then why are you professing your faith?

Well, your not suggesting Penny stay with a delusion if it makes her happy.

Delusional thinking is much like a drug. You believe certain things to find escape from painful experiences, but eventually you become addicted to the fantasy world instead. 

 

 

 

 

 

[realityrunt]

5 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I don’t know if it does or not. 

The real question is, what do you believe after you leave Christianity. 

 

 

[mwc]

9 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

I never in my life met Christians who believe children go to Hell. I have been to different churches of different denominations. I never before heard anyone say that a child goes to Hell. Most denominations believe that a child has to come to the age of accountability, to know they are sinners and need salvation. 

 

Jesus has already redeemed the entire world, every single human that ever lived or ever will live. The difference between a saved person and an unsaved person is whether or not the redemption is accepted. Little kids and mentally challenged people are unaware of sinning against God. I can say I was absolutely not at the age of accountability until I was 12. I said I was saved at 6, but I just loved God. I did not know I was a sinner at that time. 

     So had god not himself known to anyone at then no one would could possibly be aware of anything and everyone would fall under this loophole.  By making himself known god doomed people.  Is that what you're saying?  No one could no they were a sinner until they were told they were a sinner.  So if we assume it was god that told everyone this (which isn't the case but we'll say it here) then god should have said nothing and everyone would have remained ignorant and been just fine.  The more god talks the worse things get is what I hear you saying.

 

     And the "age of accountability" is what?  Like a Bar Mitzvah?  The act of placing someone under the law.  Which is Talmudic I believe.  So not biblical.  Just traditions and midrashic interpretations.

 

          mwc

 

[disillusioned]

39 minutes ago, primaryzero said:

Well, your not suggesting Penny stay with a delusion if it makes her happy.

Delusional thinking is much like a drug. You believe certain things to find escape from painful experiences, but eventually you become addicted to the fantasy world instead. 

 

Actually, that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

 

Let's be clear here though. I'm not suggesting that Penny should choose to believe something which she knows is a delusion because it makes her happy. That would be silly. But Penny clearly actually believes Christianity. From her perspective, it isn't a delusion. I think she is genuine in her belief. Also, she isn't being a jerk about it, so why would I try to disabuse her of her beliefs? They make her happy, and they're not hurting anyone.

 

Also, lots of people use drugs without developing a problem. I generally don't go around telling adults what they should and should not do. My own drug use is limited to caffeine and alcohol. I enjoy both and abuse neither. And anyone who tries to tell me that I shouldn't enjoy these things can fuck right off.

 

Personally, I can't believe in Christianity. I don't find it either particularly coherent or convincing. I also don't want to believe in Christianity, because I think it's a horrible doctrine. But Penny clearly has her own version of Christianity, and so far it doesn't seem that abhorrent. So why should I try to force her to abandon it? It seems like a complete fairy tale to me, but so what? It makes her happy, and happiness is good.

[disillusioned]

2 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

Oh, I misunderstood. It is not so much that I am uninterested in defending my faith. It is more a case of being unable to defend it. I am convinced that arguing about it is not the way to go about evangelism. I think evangelism should be personal, as in sharing one’s faith with a friend. 

 

I suppose I am tiresome, it is not the first time people have found me so, lol. 

 

But thanks for your very nice post. Perhaps my friend wants me to read the opinions of ex Christians rather than to argue about my own. 

 

Well, I applaud you for trying to expand your horizons. We can all benefit from holding discourse with others who do not share our opinions. And, for what it's worth, I don't personally find you tiresome. You seem to be a nice person. I hope you stick around.

[realityrunt]

13 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

Actually, that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

 

Let's be clear here though. I'm not suggesting that Penny should choose to believe something which she knows is a delusion because it makes her happy. That would be silly. But Penny clearly actually believes Christianity. From her perspective, it isn't a delusion. I think she is genuine in her belief. Also, she isn't being a jerk about it, so why would I try to disabuse her of her beliefs? They make her happy, and they're not hurting anyone.

 

Also, lots of people use drugs without developing a problem. I generally don't go around telling adults what they should and should not do. My own drug use is limited to caffeine and alcohol. I enjoy both and abuse neither. And anyone who tries to tell me that I shouldn't enjoy these things can fuck right off.

 

Personally, I can't believe in Christianity. I don't find it either particularly coherent or convincing. I also don't want to believe in Christianity, because I think it's a horrible doctrine. But Penny clearly has her own version of Christianity, and so far it doesn't seem that abhorrent. So why should I try to force her to abandon it? It seems like a complete fairy tale to me, but so what? It makes her happy, and happiness is good.

I do enjoy a snifter of port at Christmas.

[Jeff]

Penny. You misled me. You are turning out to be quite the apologist. 

And you are standing your ground without turning ugly like so many do. 

Im glad you are here and hope you stay. 

Pace yourself and dont wear out too quickly.