Quantum Leap

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1 hour ago, disillusioned said:


Actually, that's exactly what I'm suggesting.


Let's be clear here though. I'm not suggesting that Penny should choose to believe something which she knows is a delusion because it makes her happy. That would be silly. But Penny clearly actually believes Christianity. From her perspective, it isn't a delusion. I think she is genuine in her belief. Also, she isn't being a jerk about it, so why would I try to disabuse her of her beliefs? They make her happy, and they're not hurting anyone.


Also, lots of people use drugs without developing a problem. I generally don't go around telling adults what they should and should not do. My own drug use is limited to caffeine and alcohol. I enjoy both and abuse neither. And anyone who tries to tell me that I shouldn't enjoy these things can fuck right off.


Personally, I can't believe in Christianity. I don't find it either particularly coherent or convincing. I also don't want to believe in Christianity, because I think it's a horrible doctrine. But Penny clearly has her own version of Christianity, and so far it doesn't seem that abhorrent. So why should I try to force her to abandon it? It seems like a complete fairy tale to me, but so what? It makes her happy, and happiness is good.


I agree. It’s nice to debate with Christians but to suggest that continued belief will render them unable to function in reality is baloney and is similar to a Christian saying I need to turn or burn. Both ideas are fanatical. 


I functioned ok as a Christian. I just got annoyed with it after a while. 


While it is fun to aggressively poke holes in Christianity, I don’t really care to save souls for Agnosticism. 

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On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 11:17 PM, PennySerenade said:

Can mentally challenged people understand concepts of sin? I don’t think they can. “...being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”


If a person can not understand, the person is excused- be it a baby, child, or mentally challenged adult. 





Hi PennySerenede.  No matter what prompted your friend to suggest that you come here, I think it’s great that you decided to join the site, and I hope you continue to post.  I really wish that I could have open, honest discussions about the Bible and faith/doubts with friends and family.


Could you be projecting your own personal sense of fairness and justice, versus what the author of the Biblical text intended or meant?  Later in Romans, Paul goes on to explain the scope of sin, saying that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin (Romans 3:9).  In 3:10-12, Paul quotes Psalms 14:3 and says that all have turned away from God and that no one is good, not even one.  Later Paul states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God  (3:23).  In Romans 5:12, Paul says that when Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race, and that Adam’s sin brought death and it spread to all, for all sinned.  Unless there is additional context from the original Greek that is missing in translation, Paul gives no qualifiers or caveats when he indicates that all have sinned.  


When it comes to the eternal fate of children, the mentally disabled/challenged, and others, one consideration could be, technically, can you say for sure what they do or do not understand?  These would include a multitude of people, both past and present, whom you have never met or known.  Paul indicates in Romans 1:20 that people can clearly see God’s invisible eternal power and divine nature through the things God made.   So just by looking around at the world, people are supposed to know God exists and are without excuse. 


Also consider Biblical examples of people who, by today’s standards, would be seen as mentally unstable.  Ezekiel was commanded by Yahweh to lay on his left side of his body for 390 days (Ezekiel 4:5) and lay on the right side of his body for 40 days (4:6), was tied up with rope (4:8), and later commanded to bake bread over a fire of dried human dung as fuel (4:12,  (later changed to cow dung)).  People today who see someone doing what Ezekiel did would say he was crazy, but he is considered by Jews and Christians as one of the greatest of the prophets.  In the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar was driven from human society and ate grass like a cow (Daniel 4:33).  Yet Nebuchadnezzar had his sanity restored and apparently wrote a first-person testimony praising Yahweh (Daniel 4:34-37).   


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18 hours ago, PennySerenade said:

For the record, Satan was only in one serpent, and the serpent was not a snake until after the fall. 


Read Genesis 3 from a Jewish point of view rather than a Christian one, ignoring for the moment any New Testament references to Satan or serpents.


You will notice that nowhere in Genesis itself is there a link between Satan and the serpent.  This is a Christian reinterpretation of the story -- in other words, a retcon.

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