What do you believe

[mymistake]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:31 AM, end3 said:

I think there are things that even science points to as fact, but are only believed to be true. 

 

Those are opposites.  If something is only believed to be true then science doesn't point to it as fact.  

 

 

On 12/22/2017 at 10:52 AM, end3 said:

Just makes me wonder when the Bible talks about levels of Heaven and we postulate multiverses....

 

The two have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Jolie said:

I never said supernatural things can’t happen in other religions. I dabbled in the occult before I found God. So I know firsthand that others are having experiences with the spiritual realm. The difference between the experiences is the relationship I’ve found in my Father. A relationship of unconditional love. One where I don’t have to prove anything to Him or perform to receive His acceptance.

 

You don't? What are the ten commandments for? What is forgiveness for? What is sin, and why do we need forgiveness from it, according to Christians? If I'm not mistaken, these are very much things that are required, to gain acceptance.

I'm just curious, why do you feel you need a Father to feel unconditional love? Can't you love and accept yourself unconditionally, just as you are? What do you need saving from?

 

[knightcore]

14 hours ago, Jolie said:

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door. Once that door swings open, He enters and evidence takes place, He reveals Himself to His true children, the ones who dared to believe in such amazing grace. Unbelievers think Christianity stops at belief. That is only the beginning, belief starts us in a relationship with a living tangible God. Praise be to Jesus! 

 

A lot of people here have already commented on this particular quote, but I'm going to throw in my two cents as well.

What you are saying is absolutely hurtful and insulting. I grew up as a baptist missionary and devoted my entire life to god. I prayed, I tried to be good, I read my bible, I believed in him and opened myself up as wide as I could. He never came to me. I never had your moment. I thought I did once, but I never was attuned to him the way that other believers seemed to be.

Are you telling me I didn't do enough? That I did not serve enough? That I did not believe enough? Because that is what you are communicating to all of us right now. Christianity doesn't stop at belief, but it is the absolute core of it. And if my belief wasn't enough, then no matter what I do to supplement it isn't going to matter.

Predestination and true Christians only lead to guilt and a lifetime of insecurity. You can act like we didn't try hard enough but that just makes you look proud and ignorant like every other half baked evangelist that breezes through.

[Astreja]

On 3/28/2018 at 7:33 PM, Jolie said:

I don’t share Jesus to shove Him in anyone’s throat. I share Him because I do wish this beautiful relationship with Him through Jesus could be experienced by others. I couldn’t imagine my life without Him now. If you found a treasure that blessed you beyond measure, wouldn’t you want to tell people, too?

 

Jolie, this is a site for EX-Christians, not a site for people who have never heard of your religion.

 

When we say we aren't convinced by your testimony, and that we do not want to pursue Christianity any further, we mean it.  Respect that, or expect constant pushback and a lot of anger from our side.

 

15 hours ago, Jolie said:

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door.

 

That door is permanently nailed shut for me, Jolie.  I have never in all of my 60 years been able to suspend disbelief sufficiently to develop actual religious faith.  My brain has developed in such a way as to automatically question any claim that violates common sense and reality -- such as, for example, that nonsense about Jesus coming back from the dead.  Christianity is a non-starter for me.  I cannot believe.  End of statement.

[midniterider]

"I don’t have to do anything, but let Him love me."

 

Are we talking about the same Jesus? So, no bible reading? No praying? No going to church? That's awesome.

 

Oh, wait:

https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/obedience-bible-verses/

[disillusioned]

Did we scare her away already?

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

Did we scare her away already?

It's easter weekend. If her devotion is anything like mine was, it's a busy weekend

[mymistake]

22 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

She came to evangelize, I highly doubt consideration of opposing arguments were part of the plan on coming here.

 

 

With the Holy Spirit and Jesus on her team she should be able to stump everyone.  Should be a piece of cake.  But if all she has is her imaginary friend . . . then not so much.

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, disillusioned said:

Did we scare her away already?

 

I would imagine her prayer team is dilligently petitioning God for our salvation.

[knightcore]

6 hours ago, disillusioned said:

Did we scare her away already?

She's probably just telling her prayer group about us.

[disillusioned]

@Jolie, I hope you're still around. We still have things to discuss!

[LogicalFallacy]

On 3/31/2018 at 5:30 PM, mymistake said:

With the Holy Spirit and Jesus on her team she should be able to stump everyone.  Should be a piece of cake.  But if all she has is her imaginary friend . . . then not so much.

 

MM were you here when a couple of Christians came through about 7-10 months or so ago? One's name was Stranger and I forget the other.

 

Came in with a message from God. Couldn't answer questions... told us he'd done the lords work and left.

 

I think a lot of Christians think that their personal testimony about God holds such weight and get confused when we point out why their beliefs are based on bad reasoning.

 

Hopefully she's not hit and run.

[disillusioned]

1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

MM were you here when a couple of Christians came through about 7-10 months or so ago? One's name was Stranger and I forget the other.

 

That one was odd. Normally Christians who come here at least try to defend their faith, but not him.

[knightcore]

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

MM were you here when a couple of Christians came through about 7-10 months or so ago? One's name was Stranger and I forget the other.

 

Came in with a message from God. Couldn't answer questions... told us he'd done the lords work and left.

 

I remember that. God told him his time was up just in time to avoid some really hard questions. Funny how God's mind changed in like two days because before he was telling us god chose him specifically to minister to us. Funny shit, good times.

[mymistake]

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

MM were you here when a couple of Christians came through about 7-10 months or so ago? One's name was Stranger and I forget the other.

 

Came in with a message from God. Couldn't answer questions... told us he'd done the lords work and left.

 

 

I was on a break but I have seen the same thing happen many times.

 

 

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

I think a lot of Christians think that their personal testimony about God holds such weight and get confused when we point out why their beliefs are based on bad reasoning.

 

Hopefully she's not hit and run.

 

 

Christians assume that everyone else will be convinced by whatever they personally find convincing.  However most (if not all) Christians believe based on subjective emotions and that carries no weight unless another is experiencing similar emotions.  Christian theology is designed to appeal to the emotions but it won't work if a candidate's "heartstrings" pull in a different fashion.  For example if somebody is convinced that Hell is absurd then Christians will get nowhere using threats of Hell.  The threat is seen as absurd.  If a Christian was deeply moved and accepted Jesus because of their grandmother's stories then they will be shocked to learn that these stories have no meaning to adult hearing them for the first time.  So on and so forth. 

 

 

[knightcore]

I think we definitely scared her away.

[LogicalFallacy]

48 minutes ago, knightcore said:

I think we definitely scared her away.

Very few Christians can handle probing questions. They grow up isolated and believing that the infidel has no answer. 

[mymistake]

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Very few Christians can handle probing questions. They grow up isolated and believing that the infidel has no answer. 

 

 

And the ones that can handle it do so by pivoting.

 

"Because Grace is the Grace of life through Grace." - someone3

 

"I still love you devils anyway." - someonelina

 

"Bob Dylan had the answer and he put it in this song." - someonehorse

 

 

 

[mwc]

On 3/28/2018 at 5:33 PM, Jolie said:

One day when I was sick, had a bad stomach ache, exhausted from lack of sleep from working night shift and I finally reached my breaking point, I began crying out to God. I told Him I’ve been doing everything a Christian is supposed to do, go to church, read the Bible, etc. but I still felt a deep longing inside, like an emptiness inside me. I said God, I need to know for sure that You love me. If you will make  something in the room move, that will be enough, I will believe You love me.  I waited for about 10 minutes and nothing moved.  I slid off the couch where I was laying because I was sick and got onto my knees, I cried out in prayer, I said God please reveal Your love to me.  I remember thinking to myself I am not getting up off my knees until He does.  I said God Your word says “ask and you shall receive”, I am asking now, reveal your love for me. 

 

All of of a sudden I feel like I am being blown up inside like a balloon, something was happening, I felt like something was being poured into me and I reached my limit, thought I could pop I was so filled with *something*. Whatever it was turned into the most beautiful feeling I had ever felt in my entire life! Words can not do justice. Then I heard a voice coming from the inside of me say, “all you had to do was ask”.

 

I got up off my knees that day a different person. I’ve never been the same.

     Ah, look at that "Hey, Kool-Aid!"

 

     And it worked.  But it really didn't by your own admission.  You just took something else as the answer.  You said " If you will make  something in the room move, that will be enough, I will believe You love me."  Nothing in the room moved now did it?  But you got a feeling and that had to be "god" talking to you even though that wasn't the request.  Was it better?  Not really.  God didn't answer your prayer.  You asked.  For something specific.  You didn't receive.

 

     That's the "magic" of prayer though.  You ask for something and take something else as the response.  So it tends to work when it needs to.  Someone deathly ill?  Pray.  They live?  Yay!  They die?  Yay!  They stay sick?  Yay!  Look how all those prayers got answered just right.  God always comes through exactly how we need him to.  Fills us with so much...well...feelings. 

 

     And feelings are just the best.  "Oh, Yeah!"

 

          mwc

 

[Guest end3]

11 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

And the ones that can handle it do so by pivoting.

 

"Because Grace is the Grace of life through Grace." - someone3

 

"I still love you devils anyway." - someonelina

 

"Bob Dylan had the answer and he put it in this song." - someonehorse

 

 

 

Neither side has the answer....hence Grace.  But you might convince yourself you're a good lawyer with the non-believers ego...

[mymistake]

12 hours ago, end3 said:

Neither side has the answer.... 

 

You are wrong.  Science put men on the moon.  That is how solid science is at discovering the truth.  Religion gives you nothing you didn't already know.

 

Oh I can imagine you will come back with "problems caused by science".  But it really isn't.  Our population causes problems.  Our numbers cause problems.  Our technology causes problems.  We had a high population, technology and problems before we discovered science.  The scientific method is what allows us to solve problems.

 

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

You are wrong.  Science put men on the moon.  That is how solid science is at discovering the truth.  Religion gives you nothing you didn't already know.

 

Oh I can imagine you will come back with "problems caused by science".  But it really isn't.  Our population causes problems.  Our numbers cause problems.  Our technology causes problems.  We had a high population, technology and problems before we discovered science.  The scientific method is what allows us to solve problems.

 

This is really short-sighted MM.  Science will never, never, never have all the answers......never.  It's ok that they don't have all the answers.....and you are free to fill in the blanks as you wish.  But the first order is, they don't have all the answers and never will.

[MOHO]

42 minutes ago, end3 said:

Science will never, never, never have all the answers......never.

 

But religion wil sure as shit TELL you it has all the answers.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

This is really short-sighted MM.  Science will never, never, never have all the answers......never.  It's ok that they don't have all the answers.....and you are free to fill in the blanks as you wish.  But the first order is, they don't have all the answers and never will.

Some of us actually prefer the questions to being spoon fed the grand delusional story that is religion. 

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

This is really short-sighted MM.   

 

That is not what short-sighted means.  I know you don't want to go back to living like it is the bronze age all over again because nothing is stopping you.  You can walk off the grid and live like it were the "Bible times".  You won't.  You enjoy the benefits science has given your life.

 

1 hour ago, end3 said:

 Science will never, never, never have all the answers......never.   

 

Science knows that because otherwise science would stop.  Think about it.

 

 

2 hours ago, end3 said:

It's ok that they don't have all the answers.....and you are free to fill in the blanks as you wish.  

 

True, I could start a religion any time I want.  I choose to not do that.  I don't want people hooked on a religion that I invented.

 

 

2 hours ago, end3 said:

But the first order is, they don't have all the answers and never will.

 

 

Do you realize nobody thinks science will ever have all the answers?  Scientists realize that questions really are infinite.  

 

This does not change the fact that science is the tool we use to uncover the truth.  If our decedents survive for billions of years they might uncover most of the truth or even all the truth that can be uncovered but that doesn't mean there won't be something we can't access.  Meanwhile religion will still give you nothing you didn't already have.