What do you believe

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, end3 said:

I don't have a good answer Prof.  I gather it's something we need to learn as individuals.  And I gather it's rather important to God that we do.  I'm also dismayed at the method he has chosen for class/school.

 

Being dismayed by god's methods was one of the early steps on my path to deconversion.  It followed shortly after having inadequate answers to questions.

 

Not trying to imply a parallel; just stating an observation.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

I don't think they do substantiate it as fact.  As I said before, a centuries old book talks about levels of Heaven and we are now postulating multiverses.  That personally makes me think the dots are connected.  Some folks, no.

 

The Book of Mormon, right? Different levels of Heaven, etc.

[Guest end3]

15 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

The Book of Mormon, right? Different levels of Heaven, etc.

Revelation...if my memory serves.

[florduh]

Not all Christians believe in a Hell any more than they believe in a six day creation, Noah's ark, a man made from dirt and a woman made from his rib.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/christians/christian/belief-in-hell/dont-believe/

 

 

[realityrunt]

3 hours ago, end3 said:

Revelation...if my memory serves.

Mormonism teaches there are 3 different heaven's, and a spirit prison where souls go if they don't choose Jesus in this universe.

 

The Bible just says:

John 14:2

2My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

 

[Guest end3]

3 hours ago, realityrunt said:

Mormonism teaches there are 3 different heaven's, and a spirit prison where souls go if they don't choose Jesus in this universe.

 

The Bible just says:

John 14:2

2My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

 

2 Co 12:2

[realityrunt]

2 hours ago, end3 said:

2 Co 12:2

Just guessing here, is those verse about the glory's and different bodies? Like the sun has a different body, and the moon.

 

Nope, not the one.

 

"I knew a man caught up in the third heaven" Yeah, so, the third heaven might be gods dwelling place, the second space, and the first earth.

[Jolie]

On 12/19/2017 at 10:57 AM, realityrunt said:

It still amazes me how the Christians I talk to keep pushing their theology down my throat, even though they know I'm not interested. It seems to them that the key is I've just got to "Believe" in it all.

 

Hang on a second.

 

If your god is real, why is this real thing to be believed in? Shouldn't it rather be something I actually know, and what I know substantiated by facts. I mean how in the world Christians do you think you know your god is real if you only trust in your beliefs, and never take it any further.

 

You don't seem to care to much about building a solid case for your god, doesn't he say that "My people perish because of lack of knowledge"

 

Yeah the Bible does.

Hosea 4:6

 

Strange it says "Knowledge" and not belief.

 

 

 

Hello Realityrunt,

The reason I believe in God is because I do know Him. I did take it farther than just believing, but it did start out as believing at first.  Believing is the key that gave me the amazing privilege of Him literally revealing Himself to me. 

 

I didn’t grow up in a religious household. We didn’t go to church on Sundays or anything like that. I did however hear about God here and there, growing up in America it’s to be expected. In my late 20’s I was invited to church. I remember the whole time listening to the preacher I was thinking, how does he know what he’s saying is true? How can I believe anything he’s saying? This made me very curious. I got a bible and started reading it for myself. I read it all the way through, from cover to cover. I was so moved when I read the books about Jesus. As a woman, I stayed away from church because I felt church was demeaning to women, but this Jesus, He was the opposite. He stood up for women when the religious leaders were oppressing them. 

 

After a a lot of thinking and searching, I finally chose to believe in this heroic Jesus as my Savior and my way to God. Months passed and nothing much changed in my life. I had started going to church, reading the Bible regularly and praying, but other than that I still felt the same inside. Sort of empty and confused about a lot. I reached a place where I needed answers. One day when I was sick, had a bad stomach ache, exhausted from lack of sleep from working night shift and I finally reached my breaking point, I began crying out to God. I told Him I’ve been doing everything a Christian is supposed to do, go to church, read the Bible, etc. but I still felt a deep longing inside, like an emptiness inside me. I said God, I need to know for sure that You love me. If you will make  something in the room move, that will be enough, I will believe You love me.  I waited for about 10 minutes and nothing moved.  I slid off the couch where I was laying because I was sick and got onto my knees, I cried out in prayer, I said God please reveal Your love to me.  I remember thinking to myself I am not getting up off my knees until He does.  I said God Your word says “ask and you shall receive”, I am asking now, reveal your love for me. 

 

All of of a sudden I feel like I am being blown up inside like a balloon, something was happening, I felt like something was being poured into me and I reached my limit, thought I could pop I was so filled with *something*. Whatever it was turned into the most beautiful feeling I had ever felt in my entire life! Words can not do justice. Then I heard a voice coming from the inside of me say, “all you had to do was ask”.

 

I got up off my knees that day a different person. I’ve never been the same. God began transforming me from the inside. He filled that emptiness that use to be in me. Eventually as I read the Bible my eyes were opened showing me what had happened. I was baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit that day. This has given me real knowledge that God is who He says He is. Since that day, I have heard Him speak to me from the inside, I can hear his voice like this when I pray sometimes. 

 

You want us to prove to you that God is real. I’m sorry, but we can’t do that. This relationship with God is entered into by believing. Only God can prove to you that He’s real. My Heavenly Father did tell me to tell you something though. He said He wants a relationship with you. 

I attest that the love He has shown me first hand is not disappointing. 

I don’t share Jesus to shove Him in anyone’s throat. I share Him because I do wish this beautiful relationship with Him through Jesus could be experienced by others. I couldn’t imagine my life without Him now. If you found a treasure that blessed you beyond measure, wouldn’t you want to tell people, too? 

 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

15 minutes ago, Jolie said:

 

Hello Realityrunt,

The reason I believe in God is because I do know Him. I did take it farther than just believing, but it did start out as believing at first.  Believing is the key that gave me the amazing privilege of Him literally revealing Himself to me. 

 

That's cool. Introduce us to him, I've been looking for 34 years and that guy refuses to reveal himself. And before you say I didn't believe or didn't seek God, know that I did and I will simply laugh at any claims of knowledge about what attempts I've made to find God.

 

15 minutes ago, Jolie said:

I didn’t grow up in a religious household. We didn’t go to church on Sundays or anything like that. I did however hear about God here and there, growing up in America it’s to be expected. In my late 20’s I was invited to church. I remember the whole time listening to the preacher I was thinking, how does he know what he’s saying is true? How can I believe anything he’s saying? This made me very curious. I got a bible and started reading it for myself. I read it all the way through, from cover to cover. I was so moved when I read the books about Jesus. As a woman, I stayed away from church because I felt church was demeaning to women, but this Jesus, He was the opposite. He stood up for women when the religious leaders were oppressing them. 

 

So to find out if what the preacher was saying that he said the bible said you went and read the bible and this convinced you? Have you read the Koran, the Vidas? Why are you not convinced by them?

 

If you want to find out if something a book says is true you don't just believe the book, you go and look for evidence. You research that book. Do that thoroughly and without bias with the bible and your belief will crumble. I can point you to many resources that can show the claims made in the bible are, for the most part, flat out false.

 

15 minutes ago, Jolie said:

 

After a a lot of thinking and searching, I finally chose to believe in this heroic Jesus as my Savior and my way to God.

 

So you chose to view an historical figure in a certain way and then accept all of the claims made about him BEFORE actually receiving and reasonable evidence.

 

15 minutes ago, Jolie said:

 

Months passed and nothing much changed in my life. I had started going to church, reading the Bible regularly and praying, but other than that I still felt the same inside. Sort of empty and confused about a lot. I reached a place where I needed answers. One day when I was sick, had a bad stomach ache, exhausted from lack of sleep from working night shift and I finally reached my breaking point, I began crying out to God. I told Him I’ve been doing everything a Christian is supposed to do, go to church, read the Bible, etc. but I still felt a deep longing inside, like an emptiness inside me. I said God, I need to know for sure that You love me. If you will make  something in the room move, that will be enough, I will believe You love me.  I waited for about 10 minutes and nothing moved.  I slid off the couch where I was laying because I was sick and got onto my knees, I cried out in prayer, I said God please reveal Your love to me.  I remember thinking to myself I am not getting up off my knees until He does.  I said God Your word says “ask and you shall receive”, I am asking now, reveal your love for me. 

 

All of of a sudden I feel like I am being blown up inside like a balloon, something was happening, I felt like something was being poured into me and I reached my limit, thought I could pop I was so filled with *something*. Whatever it was turned into the most beautiful feeling I had ever felt in my entire life! Words can not do justice. Then I heard a voice coming from the inside of me say, “all you had to do was ask”.

 

I got up off my knees that day a different person. I’ve never been the same. God began transforming me from the inside. He filled that emptiness that use to be in me. Eventually as I read the Bible my eyes were opened showing me what had happened. I was baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit that day. This has given me real knowledge that God is who He says He is. Since that day, I have heard Him speak to me from the inside, I can hear his voice like this when I pray sometimes. 

 

You want us to prove to you that God is real. I’m sorry, but we can’t do that. This relationship with God is entered into by believing. Only God can prove to you that He’s real. My Heavenly Father did tell me to tell you something though. He said He wants a relationship with you. 

I attest that the love He has shown me first hand is not disappointing. 

 

This is what's called a subjective experience that happens to people all over the world from every religion... and yet you think that its a sign or an experience from the God you decided to believe in.

 

15 minutes ago, Jolie said:

I don’t share Jesus to shove Him in anyone’s throat. I share Him because I do wish this beautiful relationship with Him through Jesus could be experienced by others. I couldn’t imagine my life without Him now. If you found a treasure that blessed you beyond measure, wouldn’t you want to tell people, too? 

 

I would want to make sure that my experience is grounded in reality and what I was basing it of was factual. The best, the very best we can do at the moment is say that someone named Jesus lived around 30AD and inspired followers. There is nothing presented so far that could lead you to reasonably conclude that the claims of his resurrection, miracles etc happened, BUT all the other reported miracles from other religions didn't happen.

 

Do you believe that Mohammad flew to Jerusalem on a winged horse? Why or why not? (Note there are numerous examples, that's a fairly well known example to pick on)

 

Oh and Welcome to the Lions Den!

[disillusioned]

31 minutes ago, Jolie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

You want us to prove to you that God is real. I’m sorry, but we can’t do that. This relationship with God is entered into by believing. Only God can prove to you that He’s real.

 

Tried that. It didn't work.

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Jolie said:

 

You want us to prove to you that God is real. I’m sorry, but we can’t do that. This relationship with God is entered into by believing. Only God can prove to you that He’s real.

 

 

 

You know, if you were correct in that, it sure says a lot about the nature of God. Seeing as he isn't proving himself to millions of people out there, I'd say that's pretty unloving, seeing as Christians argue that one must believe to be saved. But its all good hey, because he has saved you. I was once like that, myself, and I'm glad my sense of humanity and compassion finally awoke and reason prevailed.

[mymistake]

On 12/22/2017 at 8:35 AM, end3 said:

You don't want people going to hell do you...

 

 

Want is irrelevant since Hell does not exist.

[mymistake]

13 hours ago, Jolie said:

 

Hello Realityrunt,

The reason I believe in God is because I do know Him.  

 

Hello Jolie, welcome to the forum.

 

If you know God, do you have a selfie with him?  If so then may I see it?  If not would you please take one and share.

 

It's a reasonable request.  If I were to claim that I was a friend of any famous person this is the request I would get all the time.  People would want to see the pic of me standing next to the famous person I claim to know.  Do you know what else people I know do?  They give me their phone number.  And they call me because I gave them my number.  I'm thinking you and God don't exchange calls.

 

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you don't know God.  If this famous person never shows up in person then they don't really know you.

 

For all the people I know I don't need to believe in them because I have already seen them with my own eyes.  I have evidence of them rather than belief.  There is no choosing to believe they are real.  Objective evidence that they are real is indisputable. 

[Jolie]

12 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

That's cool. Introduce us to him, I've been looking for 34 years and that guy refuses to reveal himself. And before you say I didn't believe or didn't seek God, know that I did and I will simply laugh at any claims of knowledge about what attempts I've made to find God.

 

 

So to find out if what the preacher was saying that he said the bible said you went and read the bible and this convinced you? Have you read the Koran, the Vidas? Why are you not convinced by them?

 

I am not one to just believe anything I hear. I don’t easily just swallow any words that come my way. I did not read the Bible to convince me of what the preacher was saying, I read the Bible to find out first hand what it said and not just swallow a 2nd hand retelling of it. Do you know how many people sit in church for years and don’t read the whole Bible for themselves?

Yes, I have read the Koran. I dabbled in a religion that would be most described as Wicca right before I found God. I lived in a country in east Asia for 2 years that’s 98% Buddhist, so I’m quite familiar with this religion, too. 

Why am I not convinced by them? One word - Jesus. When it was revealed to me who God is through the Person of Jesus, and I found that loving God full of mercy and grace, one who is desperate for me, what could any other religion offer me? 

 

12 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

If you want to find out if something a book says is true you don't just believe the book, you go and look for evidence. You research that book. Do that thoroughly and without bias with the bible and your belief will crumble. I can point you to many resources that can show the claims made in the bible are, for the most part, flat out false.

 

I did go and look for the evidence! That is what I found that day on my knees. I had been *playing* church up until then and finally came to the end of myself. Finally needed to know first hand this amazing love the Bible described. The Bible and my belief crumble? My belief was intensified! The truth the scriptures point to came to life in me. The manifestation of God’s Holy Spirit to me is my assurance. I’m rock solid in the belief that my Heavenly Father will always be here for me in this relationship I found through Jesus. 

 

12 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

So you chose to view an historical figure in a certain way and then accept all of the claims made about him BEFORE actually receiving and reasonable evidence.

 

 

This is what's called a subjective experience that happens to people all over the world from every religion... and yet you think that its a sign or an experience from the God you decided to believe in.

 

It may have started as a beautiful spiritual experience, but it developed into something more. A living relationship with my Heavenly Father, one where He speaks to me and I can hear His voice. The scriptures say “my sheep know my voice”, and this is true. 

12 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

I would want to make sure that my experience is grounded in reality and what I was basing it of was factual. The best, the very best we can do at the moment is say that someone named Jesus lived around 30AD and inspired followers. There is nothing presented so far that could lead you to reasonably conclude that the claims of his resurrection, miracles etc happened, BUT all the other reported miracles from other religions didn't happen.

 

The relationship I’m in with my Heavenly Father is grounded. The scriptures say, those who believe will speak in new tongues. When I found out about this and my eyes were opened to this promise, I went to my Father about it and said I believe, as I began to pray, a language started pouring out of me and it wasn’t English. It just kept coming out and after I finished praying in this language I said, Lord, what did I just say? He then gave me the interpretation of what I said in English, it came pouring out of me just like the unknown language I was speaking did. I’ve been given the prayer language just like the scriptures describe. 

 

Also, when I yield myself to Him in prayer, He will sometimes begin talking through me and telling me things, using my mouth and vocal cords. This is called prophesy that scriptures teach about. The day I was sick on the couch and got on my knees in prayer and found God, when I got up, I wasn’t sick anymore. 

 

You say the very best you can do is say a man named Jesus lived around 30AD. 

I say God Himself has led me to conclude the truth of Jesus’ resurrection and miracles. When Jesus rose from the dead, He said He must go away so He can send the comforter, to lead, teach and guide you. He followed through on His promise. 

 

 

12 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Do you believe that Mohammad flew to Jerusalem on a winged horse? Why or why not? (Note there are numerous examples, that's a fairly well known example to pick on)

 

I never said supernatural things can’t happen in other religions. I dabbled in the occult before I found God. So I know firsthand that others are having experiences with the spiritual realm. The difference between the experiences is the relationship I’ve found in my Father. A relationship of unconditional love. One where I don’t have to prove anything to Him or perform to receive His acceptance. I don’t have to do anything, but let Him love me. 

 

12 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Oh and Welcome to the Lions Den!

 

Thanks!

[mymistake]

18 minutes ago, Jolie said:

 

It may have started as a beautiful spiritual experience, but it developed into something more. A living relationship with my Heavenly Father, one where He speaks to me and I can hear His voice. The scriptures say “my sheep know my voice”, and this is true. 

 

 

Cool!  Let's hear a pod cast.  Or perhaps you would't mind posting a video to Youtube of God talking.  If you can hear God's voice then the rest of us should be able to hear it too, right?

 

 

 

(Edited for clarity)

[Jolie]

25 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

Hello Jolie, welcome to the forum.

 

If you know God, do you have a selfie with him?  If so then may I see it?  If not would you please take one and share.

 

Yes! I do have a selfie of us. Do you see that photo next to my name, that is it. God is a Spirit and His Spirit is alive and living inside me. God said in scriptures that He would pour out His Spirit in the last days by the messiah, Jesus. God’s Spirit is alive and living inside all of us who believe upon the name of Jesus. When you go out, you come in contact with others like me who have His Spirit living in them. In fact, you see God all the time. Have you heard the song, what if God was one of us? Interesting song, since it contains an element of truth, God is walking around on the streets everywhere, within His children, the believers. 

 

25 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

It's a reasonable request.  If I were to claim that I was a friend of any famous person this is the request I would get all the time.  People would want to see the pic of me standing next to the famous person I claim to know.  Do you know what else people I know do?  They give me their phone number.  And they call me because I gave them my number.  I'm thinking you and God don't exchange calls.

 

We do actually, I have a direct line to God. It’s closer than a phone call. A phone has to be placed outside your ear for the voice to get inside your head to hear it. My Father is closer than that, He is living inside me. He talks to me from the inside. He reveals His glory from the inside. How genius, I wouldn’t have thought of it myself. 

 

25 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that you don't know God.  If this famous person never shows up in person then they don't really know you.

 

For all the people I know I don't need to believe in them because I have already seen them with my own eyes.  I have evidence of them rather than belief.  There is no choosing to believe they are real.  Objective evidence that they are real is indisputable.

 

 

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door. Once that door swings open, He enters and evidence takes place, He reveals Himself to His true children, the ones who dared to believe in such amazing grace. Unbelievers think Christianity stops at belief. That is only the beginning, belief starts us in a relationship with a living tangible God. Praise be to Jesus! 

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, Jolie said:

 

Yes! I do have a selfie of us. Do you see that photo next to my name, that is it. God is a Spirit and His Spirit is alive and living inside me.

 

I only see one person in that photo.  Back when I was six I was young enough to have an imaginary friend.  My whole family was encouraging me to have an imaginary friend with a specific name so I went with it.  As I got older it still seemed normal to have that imaginary friend because I spend a lot of time at church and everyone there acted like it was normal to have an imaginary friend as long as he had the right name.  And of course most of my family had an imaginary friend with the same name so it seemed very normal.

 

But it isn't normal for an adult to have an imaginary friend.  I'm too old for that sort of thing.

 

1 hour ago, Jolie said:

We do actually, I have a direct line to God. It’s closer than a phone call. A phone has to be placed outside your ear for the voice to get inside your head to hear it. My Father is closer than that, He is living inside me. He talks to me from the inside. He reveals His glory from the inside. How genius, I wouldn’t have thought of it myself. 

 

I was a Christian for 33 years.  I've served as an usher.  I've also served as a department head.  I've seen it all and done it all.  I've even waited for my imaginary friend to plan every decision in my life.

 

Human friends are much more real than God.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jolie said:

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door. Once that door swings open, He enters and evidence takes place, He reveals Himself to His true children, the ones who dared to believe in such amazing grace. Unbelievers think Christianity stops at belief. That is only the beginning, belief starts us in a relationship with a living tangible God. Praise be to Jesus! 

 

Most of the people here have already been believers.  We know what it is like on the inside because we were there already and we know what is wrong with Christianity.  You can allow yourself to be taken in by any scam if you first believe it completely without question.  Accept the whole sales pitch and you will find yourself trapped for a while.  The scam will get some of your money and a lot of your time.  When you figure out you have been fooled you can move on with your life.  Some of us don't want to go back.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Jolie said:

 

Yes! I do have a selfie of us. Do you see that photo next to my name, that is it. God is a Spirit and His Spirit is alive and living inside me. God said in scriptures that He would pour out His Spirit in the last days by the messiah, Jesus. God’s Spirit is alive and living inside all of us who believe upon the name of Jesus. When you go out, you come in contact with others like me who have His Spirit living in them. In fact, you see God all the time. Have you heard the song, what if God was one of us? Interesting song, since it contains an element of truth, God is walking around on the streets everywhere, within His children, the believers. 

 

 

We do actually, I have a direct line to God. It’s closer than a phone call. A phone has to be placed outside your ear for the voice to get inside your head to hear it. My Father is closer than that, He is living inside me. He talks to me from the inside. He reveals His glory from the inside. How genius, I wouldn’t have thought of it myself. 

 

 

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door. Once that door swings open, He enters and evidence takes place, He reveals Himself to His true children, the ones who dared to believe in such amazing grace. Unbelievers think Christianity stops at belief. That is only the beginning, belief starts us in a relationship with a living tangible God. Praise be to Jesus! 

Jolie, can I ask what your purpose is here, is it merely to witness to us "unbelievers"? Because you cannot prove to us that your subjective experience and "relationship with God" is evidence for a living tangible god. Its the equivalent of saying "I believe Santa exists and I have a relationship with him, therefore he exists."

[midniterider]

Welcome to Ex-c, Jolie.

 

May you enjoy your relationship with Jesus.

 

I spent 10 years as a Pentecostal Christian and got tired of it.

[midniterider]

3 hours ago, Jolie said:

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door. Once that door swings open, He enters and evidence takes place, He reveals Himself to His true children, the ones who dared to believe in such amazing grace. Unbelievers think Christianity stops at belief. That is only the beginning, belief starts us in a relationship with a living tangible God. Praise be to Jesus! 

 

I'm an ex-believer. I believed once. The door didn't open. I guess I wasn't one of his True Children ^(tm).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

When you talk about the door opening, I think it's more about your imagination opening and you pretending things. That's how it was for me, at least. Christianity was a fun pretense for quite a while until it became an annoyance of guilt, shame and fear. Other Christians I know will confirm that Christianity is guilt-based.

[midniterider]

49 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

Hey, I resent you saying there are no True Scotsman. 

 

LoL.

 

Well, there's one here, at least.

 

I didnt really want to greet our new guest with vitriol but it's hard to swallow that stuff again. Christianity works well for many people (I guess). Whether it's real or not, I'm very happy if it makes someone else happy. For me though, there was a honeymoon period with Jesus then after that it was kind of a 'obey me' thing.  I think Redneck Prof calls it the bait and switch.

 

I really don't mind having a faith, but 'obeying' a book or 'obeying' the nutty church people's personal interpretations of scripture  gave me heartburn. And then watching my spouse write a large check after busting my ass at work for that money also gave me heartburn.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, midniterider said:

 

I'm an ex-believer. I believed once. The door didn't open. I guess I wasn't one of his True Children ^(tm).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

When you talk about the door opening, I think it's more about your imagination opening and you pretending things. That's how it was for me, at least. Christianity was a fun pretense for quite a while until it became an annoyance of guilt, shame and fear. Other Christians I know will confirm that Christianity is guilt-based.

Christianity is a convenient way to avoid what can be the harsh reality of life, a belief that in the end, things are somehow fair and that those that suffer will be rewarded. Its also a convenient way to avoid self responsibility and true maturity and independence. When I left Christianity, I felt like I was finally becoming an adult. Belief in the Christian god is only an extension of or return to the child/parent dynamic. 

[sdelsolray]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:52 AM, end3 said:

Just makes me wonder when the Bible talks about levels of Heaven and we postulate multiverses....

 

On 12/22/2017 at 11:54 AM, end3 said:

I don't think they do substantiate it as fact.  As I said before, a centuries old book talks about levels of Heaven and we are now postulating multiverses.  That personally makes me think the dots are connected.  Some folks, no.

 

A master of the non-sequitur speaks.

[disillusioned]

7 hours ago, Jolie said:

 

The way to God is by believing, this is why we are called believers. What unbelievers don’t realize is that believing is what opens the door. Once that door swings open, He enters and evidence takes place, He reveals Himself to His true children, the ones who dared to believe in such amazing grace. Unbelievers think Christianity stops at belief. That is only the beginning, belief starts us in a relationship with a living tangible God. Praise be to Jesus! 

 

As I said before, I tried that. It didn't work. Believe me or not, I don't really care. But I know in my heart of hearts that I honestly believed. I wanted, more than anything, to have a relationship with Christ. The door was open. I wanted to hear a knock, and I threw it open, but Christ was absent. No relationship ensued. And here I am.

 

There is literally nothing to see here. Just the same tired old drivel, delivered by a new voice.

[LogicalFallacy]

 

8 hours ago, Jolie said:

21 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

That's cool. Introduce us to him, I've been looking for 34 years and that guy refuses to reveal himself. And before you say I didn't believe or didn't seek God, know that I did and I will simply laugh at any claims of knowledge about what attempts I've made to find God.

 

 

So to find out if what the preacher was saying that he said the bible said you went and read the bible and this convinced you? Have you read the Koran, the Vidas? Why are you not convinced by them?

 

I am not one to just believe anything I hear. I don’t easily just swallow any words that come my way. I did not read the Bible to convince me of what the preacher was saying, I read the Bible to find out first hand what it said and not just swallow a 2nd hand retelling of it.

 

Do you know how many people sit in church for years and don’t read the whole Bible for themselves?

 

Oh yes. It's a truism that atheists know the bible better than most Christians because they've actually read it! That's why they are atheists. 

 

8 hours ago, Jolie said:

Yes, I have read the Koran. I dabbled in a religion that would be most described as Wicca right before I found God. I lived in a country in east Asia for 2 years that’s 98% Buddhist, so I’m quite familiar with this religion, too. 

Why am I not convinced by them? One word - Jesus. When it was revealed to me who God is through the Person of Jesus, and I found that loving God full of mercy and grace, one who is desperate for me, what could any other religion offer me? 

 

Right so we have a reason you believe the bible - Jesus.

 

So what reason do you have to believe that what is claimed of Jesus is actually fact?

 

8 hours ago, Jolie said:

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If you want to find out if something a book says is true you don't just believe the book, you go and look for evidence. You research that book. Do that thoroughly and without bias with the bible and your belief will crumble. I can point you to many resources that can show the claims made in the bible are, for the most part, flat out false.

 

I did go and look for the evidence! That is what I found that day on my knees. I had been *playing* church up until then and finally came to the end of myself. Finally needed to know first hand this amazing love the Bible described. The Bible and my belief crumble? My belief was intensified! The truth the scriptures point to came to life in me. The manifestation of God’s Holy Spirit to me is my assurance. I’m rock solid in the belief that my Heavenly Father will always be here for me in this relationship I found through Jesus. 

 

How do you know that what you are feeling is the "holy spirit'? Bear in mind that people from religions all over the world describe the experience you have - they just don't attribute it to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Muslims attribute it to Allah, Hindi to their gods, Buddhas to an inner enlightenment and so on. 

 

8 hours ago, Jolie said:

 

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So you chose to view an historical figure in a certain way and then accept all of the claims made about him BEFORE actually receiving and reasonable evidence.

 

 

This is what's called a subjective experience that happens to people all over the world from every religion... and yet you think that its a sign or an experience from the God you decided to believe in.

 

It may have started as a beautiful spiritual experience, but it developed into something more. A living relationship with my Heavenly Father, one where He speaks to me and I can hear His voice. The scriptures say “my sheep know my voice”, and this is true. 

 

You "hear" his voice? Is this inside your head, or you actually hear something? In either case how do you know if you are not suffering from a mental disorder such as schizophrenia? Between 5 and 28% of the population claims to hear things that others don't - and they are not all claiming Jesus spoke to them. 

 

8 hours ago, Jolie said:

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I would want to make sure that my experience is grounded in reality and what I was basing it of was factual. The best, the very best we can do at the moment is say that someone named Jesus lived around 30AD and inspired followers. There is nothing presented so far that could lead you to reasonably conclude that the claims of his resurrection, miracles etc happened, BUT all the other reported miracles from other religions didn't happen.

 

The relationship I’m in with my Heavenly Father is grounded. The scriptures say, those who believe will speak in new tongues. When I found out about this and my eyes were opened to this promise, I went to my Father about it and said I believe, as I began to pray, a language started pouring out of me and it wasn’t English. It just kept coming out and after I finished praying in this language I said, Lord, what did I just say? He then gave me the interpretation of what I said in English, it came pouring out of me just like the unknown language I was speaking did. I’ve been given the prayer language just like the scriptures describe. 

 

Also, when I yield myself to Him in prayer, He will sometimes begin talking through me and telling me things, using my mouth and vocal cords. This is called prophesy that scriptures teach about. The day I was sick on the couch and got on my knees in prayer and found God, when I got up, I wasn’t sick anymore. 

 

You say the very best you can do is say a man named Jesus lived around 30AD. 

I say God Himself has led me to conclude the truth of Jesus’ resurrection and miracles. When Jesus rose from the dead, He said He must go away so He can send the comforter, to lead, teach and guide you. He followed through on His promise. 

 

Right so you spoke in tongues - I've seen this first hand. I'm going to be harsh, but its essentially baby babbling then you making up interpretations. I don't know if you realize it but all of your 'evidence' is based on what's going on inside your own head. 

 

Jesus also said he's return "soon". Still waiting 2000 years later.

 

Jesus said Mark 11:23 "For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith."

 

Have you ever seen this done? Have you ever heard of this being done? There are things that if Jesus was actually what is claimed of him, would be testable, not mere subjective feelings.

 

 

8 hours ago, Jolie said:

 

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Do you believe that Mohammad flew to Jerusalem on a winged horse? Why or why not? (Note there are numerous examples, that's a fairly well known example to pick on)

 

I never said supernatural things can’t happen in other religions. I dabbled in the occult before I found God. So I know firsthand that others are having experiences with the spiritual realm. The difference between the experiences is the relationship I’ve found in my Father. A relationship of unconditional love. One where I don’t have to prove anything to Him or perform to receive His acceptance. I don’t have to do anything, but let Him love me. 

 

Ok, so how do you know there is a spiritual realm? Lets ignore the varying religions, the claim is there is a spiritual realm, and stuff happens that is not natural. What evidence, outside of your own experience, do you have for this?

 

Now you might be upset about me discounting personal experience, but there is a reason for that. We all have subjective experiences yes? But they are not shared, and we cannot show to others that what we experience is actually true unless we have shared agreed upon evidences. Example gravity. We agree it exists. I pick up a rock and drop it and it falls. You do the same, the same thing happens. Every person on the planet does it and the rock will fall 100% of the time without fail. Gravity.

 

There is nothing even close to this confirming what is apparently the greatest gift to mankind. You ask god and you get this awesome experience from Jesus, I ask god and I get nada. Another person seeks God - and Allah reveals himself. So all we have is subjective experience. 

 

Now if I told you that I was in despair and asked for help and a Transcendent immaterial unicorn answered me from another realm, and I saw a vision of it and it spoke as said "do not despair, be brave and kind, I will guide you" and I tell you honestly and sincerely that this happened would you believe that the unicorn exists?

 

 

PS I'd like to get onto why Jesus is needed to - why is a personal saviour needed?