MasterOfCoin

The Forbidden Question - Did God Create Himself?

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TheRedneckProfessor,


"...since there is a place where god's presence ends?" (question mark noted)

I know this quote was taken out of context so I understand this was just a retort and not a real question, but thought it was a good lead for irreverence. So here it is :)

 

The place where God's presence ends is called reality.

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Perception is 90% of reality.  That's the problem with saying god's presence ends there.

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18 hours ago, end3 said:

end3,

 

...First I'm gonna make God, and then make stuff and watch the stuff do battle with itself in order that the stuff I choose to keep comes back to hang with me and God.  And God damn the rest of the stuff.  Not really damned, just in storage like the stuff we put into storage.  But God calls his storage unit "hell".... 

 

 

I like this. I might say the same thing myself.

 

The difference would be that your statement was made with some sincerity, but my intent of this statement would be sarcasm, because the likelihood of the existence of the God of the bible, IMO, would be as likely as Jesus physically riding a camel through the eye of a needle on New Years eve, on the near side of the moon, and we would see the event via the Hubble space telescope. How is that for irreverence?

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15 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Perception is 90% of reality.  That's the problem with saying god's presence ends there.

 

Perception may be 90% of an individual's reality, but I expect that reality has its own existence outside of its perception, no?

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1 hour ago, pantheory said:

 

Perception may be 90% of an individual's reality, but I expect that reality has its own existence outside of its perception, no?

Agreed.  Perhaps god lives there and we just don't perceive it.

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Maybe I'm just dense. How does something that doesn't exist create anything?

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5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Agreed.  Perhaps god lives there and we just don't perceive it.

 

Yes, perhaps :)

 

5 hours ago, florduh said:

Maybe I'm just dense. How does something that doesn't exist create anything?

 

But with tongue in cheek, one could say that something that does not exist could have created its own non-existence.

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On 12/28/2017 at 12:21 PM, pantheory said:

The place where God's presence ends is called reality.

 

Pantheory, how do you know this? Is there evidence?

 

I said I was going to leave this one alone and let other people talk about it, but I just can't, especially since the mods listened to me and moved this thread to the Lion's Den. :lol:

I'm not talking about Biblegod or any other religion, as you and I each mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm talking about a "God" whatever it may be if there is one.

Can science say for sure that all that we know of hasn't been created by something somewhere that is a living thinking individual something or other?

 

Do we know for sure that all we know of "reality" is complete now and that there is nothing left but to unwrap what we can touch or feel or see? 

 

I guess what I'm really asking in general is does science know for certain? Do we know for certain? Because if not, joking about it doesn't seem to be very scientific.

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14 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

Pantheory, how do you know this? Is there evidence?

 

I said I was going to leave this one alone and let other people talk about it, but I just can't, especially since the mods listened to me and moved this thread to the Lion's Den. :lol:

I'm not talking about Biblegod or any other religion, as you and I each mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm talking about a "God" whatever it may be if there is one.

Can science say for sure that all that we know of hasn't been created by something somewhere that is a living thinking individual something or other?

 

Do we know for sure that all we know of "reality" is complete now and that there is nothing left but to unwrap what we can touch or feel or see? 

 

I guess what I'm really asking in general is does science know for certain? Do we know for certain? Because if not, joking about it doesn't seem to be very scientific.

 

Fair questions sir. The answer IMO is simple. Science does not know for sure how beginning life came in to existence, but we have some pretty good theories of it. But we do have strong evidence and great theories concerning how plants, animals, humans, and other life came into being after life first started.

 

"Do we know for sure that all we know of "reality" is complete now and that there is nothing left but to unwrap what we can touch or feel or see?"

 

Reality does not exist as a single entity. It is a human perspective concerning our understandings of it. Science has many good theories concerning reality, but some such theories are also wrong IMO. Comparatively little is known for sure in science,  but religion is nearly a certainty as to it being wrong in all of its variations.

 

"I guess what I'm really asking in general is does science know for certain? Do we know for certain? Because if not, joking about it doesn't seem to be very scientific."

 

Saying that a God of any kind does not exist in reality is my opinion and wager, the wager being my immortal soul against a six pack.

 

 

 

 

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On 12/28/2017 at 2:06 PM, florduh said:

Maybe I'm just dense. How does something that doesn't exist create anything?

 

No maybe's about it; you make an excellent point,  so how does something originate into existence which wasn't created*? 

 

Think of the LORD like your check from the Government ever month, in the known and observed world people provide a service or labor in order to obtain the money they need to provide for their general health and welfare needs.   Since the law of nature demonstrates that which has the ability to provide for its own needs would survive while those who were unable to provide for themselves would be left to perish.   Maybe you know of a plant which returns water to ground which it had gathered and stored for its own benefit so that another plant which might otherwise might perish could survive.  Likewise, to elaborate further would be like giving water to the ground when the living matter in danger of perishing lacks the ability to absorb what is given.  

 

So if evolutionary science is founded upon the principles derived from the known and observed universe then doesn't nature itself teach you that living matter does not evolve from non-living matter but rather evolves into non-living matter?   (There is not one example of non-living matter evolving into living matter but I am sure one of your members could provide you with an example of living matter evolving into non-living matter.)                                                                           

 

(By created, I mean the act by which something is brought into existence which had never existed before in either substance or form )                                                 

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1 hour ago, Justus said:

Think of the LORD like your check from the Government ever month

 

So non existent?

 

1 hour ago, Justus said:

So if evolutionary science is founded upon the principles derived from the known and observed universe then doesn't nature itself teach you that living matter does not evolve from non-living matter but rather evolves into non-living matter?   (There is not one example of non-living matter evolving into living matter but I am sure one of your members could provide you with an example of living matter evolving into non-living matter.)                                                                           

 

(By created, I mean the act by which something is brought into existence which had never existed before in either substance or form )                                                 

 

What will happen to your answer if scientists discover a chemicals to life process? Non living matter to living matter?

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6 hours ago, Justus said:

 

No maybe's about it; you make an excellent point,  so how does something originate into existence which wasn't created*? 

 

Think of the LORD like your check from the Government ever month, in the known and observed world people provide a service or labor in order to obtain the money they need to provide for their general health and welfare needs.   Since the law of nature demonstrates that which has the ability to provide for its own needs would survive while those who were unable to provide for themselves would be left to perish.   Maybe you know of a plant which returns water to ground which it had gathered and stored for its own benefit so that another plant which might otherwise might perish could survive.  Likewise, to elaborate further would be like giving water to the ground when the living matter in danger of perishing lacks the ability to absorb what is given.  

 

So if evolutionary science is founded upon the principles derived from the known and observed universe then doesn't nature itself teach you that living matter does not evolve from non-living matter but rather evolves into non-living matter?   (There is not one example of non-living matter evolving into living matter but I am sure one of your members could provide you with an example of living matter evolving into non-living matter.)                                                                           

 

(By created, I mean the act by which something is brought into existence which had never existed before in either substance or form )                                                 

 

We have thousands of examples of gods being created by human imagination.  Will you accept that all gods come from human imagination?

 

 

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6 hours ago, Justus said:

 

No maybe's about it; you make an excellent point,  so how does something originate into existence which wasn't created*? 

 

Think of the LORD like your check from the Government ever month, in the known and observed world people provide a service or labor in order to obtain the money they need to provide for their general health and welfare needs.   Since the law of nature demonstrates that which has the ability to provide for its own needs would survive while those who were unable to provide for themselves would be left to perish.   Maybe you know of a plant which returns water to ground which it had gathered and stored for its own benefit so that another plant which might otherwise might perish could survive.  Likewise, to elaborate further would be like giving water to the ground when the living matter in danger of perishing lacks the ability to absorb what is given.  

 

So if evolutionary science is founded upon the principles derived from the known and observed universe then doesn't nature itself teach you that living matter does not evolve from non-living matter but rather evolves into non-living matter?   (There is not one example of non-living matter evolving into living matter but I am sure one of your members could provide you with an example of living matter evolving into non-living matter.)                                                                           

 

(By created, I mean the act by which something is brought into existence which had never existed before in either substance or form )                                                 

There is no claim, in any scientific discipline, anywhere in the history of science, that states that living matter evolves from non-living matter.  I've heard some pretty piss-poor misunderstandings of science and evolution before, many of them in this very forum; but what you have written here is apalling in its ignorance.

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Inorganic matter can become organic matter.  When I breathe inorganic O2 molecules or drink H2O molecules most, through well understood chemical processes, become part of other organic molecules in my body.  Conversely, organic matter can become inorganic matter, again through well understood chemical processes, such as when I exhale CO2 or excrete urea (H2NCONH2).

 

Similarly, "inorganic" energy can be a part of an organic (i.e., living) system.  Through metabolism, chemical energy is released and used by my muscles and other cells.  I emit, as waste, some of that energy in a higher entropy state, as infrared radiation.  This is also quite well understood.

 

 

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5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

There is no claim, in any scientific discipline, anywhere in the history of science, that states that living matter evolves from non-living matter.  I've heard some pretty piss-poor misunderstandings of science and evolution before, many of them in this very forum; but what you have written here is apalling in its ignorance.

 

To be fair many Christians do conflate (ignorantly or knowingly) evolution with abiogenesis.

 

I think that's what our Christian is getting at here - without God how did life come from non life? I think that's his basic premise.

 

It of course misses the point that even if we had no idea how life originated, it does not make his human made god construction real.

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Try this one on........

 

There was never "nothing." By definition, nothing does not exist. There always was only "something." There is no reason to label "something" as the Bible God.

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17 minutes ago, florduh said:

Try this one on........

 

There was never "nothing." By definition, nothing does not exist. There always was only "something." There is no reason to label "something" as the Bible God.

 

This is a good point. Science is showing that our concept of nothing needs to change. Absolute nothing does not exist. A la A Universe from Nothing by L Krauss.

 

Thus the Christian line: Well how did something come from nothing? is an incorrect question and can be met with "There never was a nothing".

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

This is a good point. Science is showing that our concept of nothing needs to change. Absolute nothing does not exist. A la A Universe from Nothing by L Krauss.

...

 

Yes, nothing currently does not exist.  A question does arise, however.  Did nothing ever exist?

 

5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

...

Thus the Christian line: Well how did something come from nothing? is an incorrect question and can be met with "There never was a nothing".

 

How do you demonstrate, "There was never a nothing"?  Leaving aside the temporal issues (which are weighty), I have yet to see a convincing argument (with companion relevant evidence) supporting this claim.

 

As a comical aside, I have on occasion responded to some folks raising the question, "Well how did something come from nothing?", with, 
Well, nothing is something, so some, most or all things came from something".

 

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13 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

Yes, nothing currently does not exist.  A question does arise, however.  Did nothing ever exist?

 

That's almost an impossibility to answer isn't it? (Besides the point that "nothing existing" seems to me to be an oxymoron) In a universe where from T=0 something has existed how could we ever find out if there ever was a state of nothing?

 

13 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

How do you demonstrate, "There was never a nothing"?  Leaving aside the temporal issues (which are weighty), I have yet to see a convincing argument (with companion relevant evidence) supporting this claim.

 

Hmm, yes I think I've overstretched there. Perhaps it needs the caveat "as far as we can tell".

 

Actually maybe leading off my first line, perhaps a better response to "How did something come from nothing" is to ask "How do we know there was ever a nothing?" (Besides according to them there never was a nothing anyway there was an eternal god) 

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1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

That's almost an impossibility to answer isn't it? (Besides the point that "nothing existing" seems to me to be an oxymoron) In a universe where from T=0 something has existed how could we ever find out if there ever was a state of nothing?

... 

You've added temporal issues back into the question.  Consider leaving it out for the time being (pun intended).

 

...

Actually maybe leading off my first line, perhaps a better response to "How did something come from nothing" is to ask "How do we know there was ever a nothing?" (Besides according to them there never was a nothing anyway there was an eternal god) 

 

Yes, better.  I prefer, "I don't know, and neither does anyone else, including you."  It's a rather accurate statement.

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"A singularity is something rather than nothing.  Who said there was nothing?" 

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On 2/12/2018 at 2:23 PM, florduh said:

Try this one on........

 

There was never "nothing." By definition, nothing does not exist. There always was only "something." There is no reason to label "something" as the Bible God.

 

Then why is it in the dictionary? 

 

On 2/12/2018 at 8:21 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

There is no claim, in any scientific discipline, anywhere in the history of science, that states that living matter evolves from non-living matter.  I've heard some pretty piss-poor misunderstandings of science and evolution before, many of them in this very forum;

 

If it ain't ole 360, denying the existence of an all knowing being while spinning around 360 degrees to declare that "There is no claim, in any scientific discipline, anywhere in the history of science, that states that living matter evolves from non-living matter. "

 

Here's one for you, what number do you see below?

zero.jpg.060f759660fa512dd1888a933d90979d.jpg

FYI: If you get it right I will send you a dictionary so you can look up the word 'appalling'.

 

19 hours ago, sdelsolray said:

How do you demonstrate, "There was never a nothing"?  

 

Well, if one can only use what is known and observed in this universe for the demonstration then the truth is self-evident.                                                                                                             

9 hours ago, mymistake said:

"A singularity is something rather than nothing.  Who said there was nothing?" 

 

Jesus :3:

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12 minutes ago, Justus said:

Then why is it in the dictionary? 

 

 

Nothing is a human concept, humans make dictionaries. However our previous understanding of what nothing means in a scientific sense is being challenged.

 

12 minutes ago, Justus said:

Jesus :3:

 

Can you provide the verse where Jesus said there was nothing? (Not that it means anything, but curious as to your context)

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On 2/12/2018 at 3:33 AM, LogicalFallacy said:

 

What will happen to your answer if scientists discover a chemicals to life process? Non living matter to living matter?

 

To start with, It would be devastating to Jacques Monod

 

Spoiler

“There are living systems; there is no living ‘matter’. No substance, no single molecule, extracted and isolated from a living being possess, of its own, the aforementioned paradoxical properties. They are present in living systems only; that is to say, nowhere below the level of the cell.”  Jacques Monod (1967) (Ѻ) 

 

47 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Can you provide the verse where Jesus said there was nothing? (Not that it means anything, but curious as to your context)

 

Yes, I can I provide the verse.

 

But since it doesn't mean anything then I will let you discover it for yourself,  but this might peak your curiosity about the existence of nothing:

Spoiler

Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it? Prov 17:16

 

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2 minutes ago, Justus said:

To start with, It would be devastating to Jacques Monod

 

  Hide contents

“There are living systems; there is no living ‘matter’. No substance, no single molecule, extracted and isolated from a living being possess, of its own, the aforementioned paradoxical properties. They are present in living systems only; that is to say, nowhere below the level of the cell.”  Jacques Monod (1967) (Ѻ) 

 

We are quibbling over semantics here. Granted I was using the same phraseology as you to try and achieve common understanding to answer the question. It seems now that was a waste of time. Let me rephrase my question.

 

In light of your posts, your first statement regarding evolution from non living matter into living matter is a non sequitur. Evolutionary theory does not require non living matter turning into living matter.

 

Perhaps your question is better phrased as scientists have not observed life beginning from scratch so how did it happen? That seems to be what you are getting at yes?

 

2 minutes ago, Justus said:

 

Yes, I can I provide the verse.

 

So do you want to provide it instead of being a smart arse, or is being a smart arse your speciality?

 

2 minutes ago, Justus said:

But since it doesn't mean anything then I show you in real time,  the proof is in your hand. 

  Hide contents

Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it? Prov 17:16

 

 

Well this is new - a Christian quoting proverbs. Like that's never happened before.

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