Visions and/or Visits to Hell

[Hierophant]

Something that still plagues me is the notion of visions. People claiming they see Jesus, or the Virgin Mary (from 2000 years ago through today) makes me wonder if there is not something more to it. I mentioned this in a previous post where I have a difficult time understanding the notion of a vision and why there seem to be so many of them going on. The Bible indicates the disciples and Paul had a vision of Christ and to this day, I am curious to know what exactly happened to where that was documented in the Bible....it bugs me am not able to put that to bed, but I digress.

 

My real question for the group is the different stories of people going to hell and coming back to warn us all. I cannot remember some of their names right of the top of my head, but do a quick search and you will see at least a dozen. Some were/are believers, others from different religious faiths, and yet others who were atheist who stated they had no real notion of hell (I believe they say this to validate their story, i.e., "I was an atheist and did not know about this teaching/theology, so how or why would this come to me if it was a psychological experience - therefore, I met the Christian God."). I am not able to just dismiss this offhandedly because I really do not understand or know what the natural explanation for all this is. If I try to find it, all I get is theologically driven writings and I am not looking for that viewpoint. Some of these visits to hell sound fairly bogus, but there are others where I can tell the person really believes it happened. The one that sticks out is the gentleman who was in a plane crash. When he talks about it, you can see he gets pretty emotionally amped up.

 

I am wondering if anyone here knows more about these experiences and can speak to it at all. Thinking it over, I suppose people really believe they get probed by aliens, so I am not sure what is really going on. I have not looked at it, but I would not be surprised if people practicing other faiths also have the same kind of stories. Not that they visited the Christian hell, but they visited their own religions afterlife....something to that effect. The fact that it does happen makes me wonder if there is not something more or perhaps there are perfectly normal explanations, but we just do not have a comprehensive idea of the human psyche.

[Thurisaz]

One very revealing question to ask is, how many (for example) muslims have visions of jebus. Or how many christians have visions of buddha. And so on.

 

As far as I know, once you investigate this is you find that somehow, somehow, people always have visions that fit into the religions they were raised with / fervently believe in. All at the same time. If there was anything supernatural about these "visions", shouldn't, say, muslims and buddhists see jebus (assuming that the jebus cult is that One True Faith(TM) )?

[Hierophant]

I have seen a couple videos where prior Muslims stated they were visited by Christ and converted. Granted, I did not dig to see exactly their background so I cannot really speak to the veracity of their testimonial(s).

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, TinMan said:

 I am not able to just dismiss this offhandedly because I really do not understand or know what the natural explanation for all this is.

 

 

Dismissing it is the natural explanation for these stories.  The human mind is highly susceptible to delusion, wishful thinking, hysteria, hallucination and even suggestion.  People with the right talents are always looking for an even better religious story so that they can enslave and control even more people.  And sometimes people simply make a story up so that they can sell a book or pass the offering plate.

 

Why do these religious stories have a stronger hold on you than Harry Potter style stories or say Star Wars style stories would? 

[Hierophant]

Harry Potter and The Rebellion are not threatening to torture me forever for not believing.

[RealityCheck]

I see you're from South Korea.  I saw a video about this South Korean girl once who supposedly visited hell and painted these elaborate paintings describing different torture methods.  It deeply disturbed me as a believer.  However such elaborate accounts are often contradictory to one another or to the bible.  The human mind, when suffering trauma or oxygen starvation (as in many triggers many of these experiences) isn't the best source of evidence.  When the brain is in such a state, it produces all manner of hallucinations.

There is also the chance that such stories have been made up for attention and publicity as mymistake suggested.

[Hierophant]

RealityCheck,

 

I did not consider the oxygen deprivation.....food for thought there. I know my profile says I am from South Korea, but actually I am an American stationed in South Korea....I am doing my last tour here with the Army before I retire. Regardless, you make a very valid point, hence why I asked the question to begin with. Regarding your comment on contradictory testimonies, could not agree more. Of the few visits or visions of hell, none of them exactly matched up, there may have been a few macro similarities, but that is about it. I have seen apologist/theologians also dismiss these visions/visits because they do not prescribe to biblical descriptions, but I am not one to think the Bible is the end all be all.

 

Truth be told, I prescribe the title "Christian Agnostic" mainly because I was in the game so long it is difficult just to toss it all aside. Within the past six months or so, I have been deconverting, and I know it. I know too much now to ever get back into Christianity. The nagging thoughts would never go away and seeing Christ from the viewpoint that he was an apocalyptic Jew is the best framework, and makes the most sense of the evidence (thank you Bart Ehrman for explaining more of the Bible than any pastor I have ran across). 

 

Thanks for the insight, always glad to hear from others who were/are in the struggle to make sense of it all.

[mymistake]

5 hours ago, TinMan said:

Harry Potter and The Rebellion are not threatening to torture me forever for not believing.

 

 

Okay, I can understand that.  Perhaps the next step is to take Christian threats and place them on the same level as childish threats made by a little kid.  You can see that the Christians have an ulterior motive.  Despite the sales pitch, the real goal of Christian threats is to trick you into joining their club, paying 10% (or more) of your income to their leader and hopefully doing the leg work so that you threaten other people into joining the club and so on.  Over time Christianity is a nice pyramid scam for the pastor at the top.  The best ones acquire their own TV show, several mansions and maybe a private jet or two.  That is unless their motivation is sexual.  If the pastor is in it for the sex then their powerful position gives them the opportunity to find whatever they want.  They can raid the nursery.  They can use the tithe money to hire prostitutes or bribe the young people of the congregation.  If they are into cheating with wives it's no problem to manipulate those who come for counseling.  There is a new pastor (or priest) getting caught almost every day.  The point I am making here is that those people running Christianity clearly know it is fake.  You wouldn't act that way if you knew the FBI had an agent watching you so there is no way a pastor would pull that stuff if they thought angels were recording evidence to send somebody to hell.

 

So next time you hear a Christian threaten you with magic try to imagine a six year old kid shout "my dad is going to beat you up".  Really an eye roll is all it would deserve.

 

 

[Hierophant]

8 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Okay, I can understand that.  Perhaps the next step is to take Christian threats and place them on the same level as childish threats made by a little kid.  You can see that the Christians have an ulterior motive.  Despite the sales pitch, the real goal of Christian threats is to trick you into joining their club, paying 10% (or more) of your income to their leader and hopefully doing the leg work so that you threaten other people into joining the club and so on.  Over time Christianity is a nice pyramid scam for the pastor at the top.  The best ones acquire their own TV show, several mansions and maybe a private jet or two.  That is unless their motivation is sexual.  If the pastor is in it for the sex then their powerful position gives them the opportunity to find whatever they want.  They can raid the nursery.  They can use the tithe money to hire prostitutes or bribe the young people of the congregation.  If they are into cheating with wives it's no problem to manipulate those who come for counseling.  There is a new pastor (or priest) getting caught almost every day.  The point I am making here is that those people running Christianity clearly know it is fake.  You wouldn't act that way if you knew the FBI had an agent watching you so there is no way a pastor would pull that stuff if they thought angels were recording evidence to send somebody to hell.

 

So next time you hear a Christian threaten you with magic try to imagine a six year old kid shout "my dad is going to beat you up".  Really an eye roll is all it would deserve.

 

 

No doubt some fall into this club, but there are definitely others who believe it. I am not sure of your background, but I was in the church in some aspect for the better part of 15 years and let me tell you, there are some cats who most definitely believe all of it is real: John MacArthur; Matt Slick; Francis Chan; John Piper; Glenn Miller; JP Holding (Robert Turkel).....you get the drift. I have read stuff from all of these guys and I do not get the impression they are faking the funk for ulterior motives. Not to discredit what you are saying, but I have to emphasize it does not apply to all.

[Hedge_Rat]

1 hour ago, TinMan said:

No doubt some fall into this club, but there are definitely others who believe it. I am not sure of your background, but I was in the church in some aspect for the better part of 15 years and let me tell you, there are some cats who most definitely believe all of it is real: John MacArthur; Matt Slick; Francis Chan; John Piper; Glenn Miller; JP Holding (Robert Turkel).....you get the drift. I have read stuff from all of these guys and I do not get the impression they are faking the funk for ulterior motives. Not to discredit what you are saying, but I have to emphasize it does not apply to all.

 

I agree... I have met some very sincere Christians who, even though they were leaders, were not on a power trip and did not have the goal to become wealthy. (As far as getting any money at all goes, my next career field that I am working on getting into is health care, and I want a paycheck for it but I do not think that means I won't care about the patients, so therefore I cannot begrudge anyone else the fact that they get paid.)

 

However, being sincere does not mean that they are correct... it would be impossible for every sincere person to be correct about their sincerely held beliefs, when Sincere Person A's beliefs contradict Sincere Person B's whose beliefs contradict Sincere Person C's, and so on.

 

Another point: everyone had to be persuaded by someone at some point, even if it happened when you were such a small child that you don't remember it. Which means that someone persuaded the person/people who persuaded you... and so on and so forth back into the first century. Somewhere along the line, probably at multiple points, there WAS someone in there who was doing it either for pure material gain and/or because they liked the power.

 

Even if the person talking to you about does not, in any obvious way, stand to gain something, there is a huge amount of privilege (and comfort) in having YOUR religion be the default. It shows up in all kinds of ways. Sometimes it's something similar to nostalgia, a sort of "This is how it was for me growing up so this is how it should always be," attitude. I remember a conversation I had about Adventures in Odyssey (if you're not familiar, a Christian radio program for kids) with a then-fellow Christian... there was a third Christian there, who was a new convert, and I remember guiltily wondering if he felt left out because many of us in the Bible study group we were in would bring up memories/events relating to Christianity from our pasts (especially childhood). If you want your offspring to have those experiences where they can randomly bring something up and have everyone immediately understand, to feel "part of a group" over something as inconsequential as a radio show, then it's helpful if everyone around your child has the same general belief-system with associated practices.

 

Also, the larger the group you're in, the more you can look down on all those other people for not understanding as well as you do. When your beliefs are based on a 2000+ year-old book with hundreds if not thousands of interpretations, you need all the bolstering of your belief system that you can get, and the best way is to hear other people say stuff you already agree with.

[Geezer]

 

The Bible is often advertised as "The Greatest Story Ever Told."  And in this case that's true. It is a story or to be specific 66 stories combined into one book. These are all myths, fictional stories with fictional characters. The Bible isn't history it's fiction. 

 

Both Heaven & Hell were created by humans. Christianity is a rewards (Heaven) punishment (Hell) religion. The reward is to lure people in & keep them, the punishment is there to scare people & make them easier to control. It's a simple and effect formula.

 

This formula, rewards & punishment, is found in many religions because it works, but it ain't true.

 

Heaven & Hell are imaginary places. When we die we just go to sleep & never wake up again. There is no afterlife. 

 

 

[buffettphan]

26 minutes ago, Geezer said:

The Bible is often advertised as "The Greatest Story Ever Told."

 

 

It even starts with "Once Upon A Time"  ("In the Beginning"}

and ends with "The End"  ("Amen" which means "So Be It")

 

It's also known as the Great Big Book of Jewish Fairy Tales.

 

[mymistake]

5 hours ago, TinMan said:

No doubt some fall into this club, but there are definitely others who believe it. I am not sure of your background, but I was in the church in some aspect for the better part of 15 years and let me tell you, there are some cats who most definitely believe all of it is real: John MacArthur; Matt Slick; Francis Chan; John Piper; Glenn Miller; JP Holding (Robert Turkel).....you get the drift. I have read stuff from all of these guys and I do not get the impression they are faking the funk for ulterior motives. Not to discredit what you are saying, but I have to emphasize it does not apply to all.

 

 

Yes, I completely agree.  Most Christians are sincere in their beliefs.  I was one of the most devout for many decades.  It was a complete waste of my life.  I made terrible choices.

[★ Citsonga ★]

4 minutes ago, mymistake said:

Yes, I completely agree.  Most Christians are sincere in their beliefs.  I was one of the most devout for many decades.  It was a complete waste of my life.  I made terrible choices.

 

Ditto here, for sure.

 

[florduh]

Everyone who "sees" Hell sees images from Dante and the Renaissance painters. Coincidence? Because that shit isn't in the Bible.

[Hierophant]

44 minutes ago, florduh said:

Everyone who "sees" Hell sees images from Dante and the Renaissance painters. Coincidence? Because that shit isn't in the Bible.

Valid point. It is never the "softer" version that is advocated by many today, something along the line of what C.S. Lewis would describe, i.e., mental anguish over physical torture.

[LostinParis]

I was told by a psychiatrist that approximately one quarter of people with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia experience religious delusions. This happened to my husband.

Case closed.

[Hierophant]

4 minutes ago, LostinParis said:

I was told by a psychiatrist that approximately one quarter of people with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia experience religious delusions. This happened to my husband.

Case closed.

No kidding. Helpful insight....thanks.

[Joshpantera]

@TinMan

Start here:

 

 

We know to the detail how it was all made up, over what periods of time it was made up, and the details that weren't there originally, but were added as the myth went along. The key to getting past questioning the validity of these myths is gaining a firm intellectual understanding of what they all actually are to begin with. Pay attention to the Dante's Inferno part in particular.

[LostinParis]

"Religion is a system of wishful illusions, together with a disavowel of reality, such as we find in an isolated form in nowhere else but amentia, in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion". ~ Sigmund Freud

[SerenelyBlue]

I saw visions of demons, satan and hell.  Bipolar mania.  The brain can be very graphic with dreams and visions.  I do however know that it was simply illusion.  I am an agnostic atheist (former Christian) and recovering from mental illness although it will never truly go away.  Read secular books about how these near death experiences can be explained.  I read a very good book that I no longer have.  Can't remember the name.  The brain is very complex.  And people lie sometimes for different reasons.  

Read https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/peace-of-mind-near-death/

[LostinParis]

12 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

I saw visions of demons, satan and hell.  Bipolar mania.  The brain can be very graphic with dreams and visions.  I do however know that it was simply illusion.  I am an agnostic atheist (former Christian) and recovering from mental illness although it will never truly go away.  Read secular books about how these near death experiences can be explained.  I read a very good book that I no longer have.  Can't remember the name.  The brain is very complex.  And people lie sometimes for different reasons.  

Read https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/peace-of-mind-near-death/

@SerenelyBlue Do you think your Xtian upbringing somehow contributed to your mental illness? 

[SerenelyBlue]

Yes.  It made the illness worse.

[LostinParis]

19 hours ago, SerenelyBlue said:

Yes.  It made the illness worse.

 

I'm sorry to hear that @SerenelyBlue, that really sucks. In what way did your Xtian life make your illness worse?

I have been shocked to realise that my husband has a distorted view of reality. He thinks invisible forces are controlling the world, with evil lurking around every corner.

[mymistake]

My battle was with depression and I was depressed for most of my life while I was Christian.  Things got a lot better about six months after becoming an atheist.  Though the transition was bumpy.  I'm just so free now that I don't have to worry about spiritual beings spying on me or demons planting thoughts in my head to trick me.  That dogma was crazy.