I Find the Argument for Hell Only Satisfactory Prima Facie

[Hierophant]

18 hours ago, DestinyTurtle said:

High five from a fellow Calvinist survivor! 

Lol, back at you. Cannot say I enjoyed it....I was always stressed to the max. Constantly wondering if I was one of the elect. Was I bearing good fruit. On and on it went. I never really started to question it until I met some JW's and we argued theology over five different sessions. They opened my eyes to the realization nobody really knows how to interpret the Bible. There are no preset guidelines and every method becomes as viable as any other.

[◊ DestinyTurtle ◊]

7 hours ago, TinMan said:

Lol, back at you. Cannot say I enjoyed it....I was always stressed to the max. Constantly wondering if I was one of the elect. Was I bearing good fruit. On and on it went. I never really started to question it until I met some JW's and we argued theology over five different sessions. They opened my eyes to the realization nobody really knows how to interpret the Bible. There are no preset guidelines and every method becomes as viable as any other.

That reminds me of this meme I found online once while looking for memes about Calvinism (they exist).

 

 

Although to be honest I suspect the pattern of endless self-doubt is a symptom of a lot of fundamentalist or authoritarian branches - not just Calvinism.

[superbrady]

On 2/23/2018 at 2:34 PM, DestinyTurtle said:

Although to be honest I suspect the pattern of endless self-doubt is a symptom of a lot of fundamentalist or authoritarian branches - not just Calvinism.

 

I just wanted to add that it seems paradoxical that 5 point Calvinists believe in the perseverance of the saints (once saved, always saved), yet so many Calvinists worry endlessly about being part of that limited group covered by the atonement. Ironically, most of the churches I went to were probably more Arminian than Calvinist, but I had the same fear... that maybe I reject God without even knowing it, putting me at risk for damnation. Another thing - Calvinists beat themselves up for being infinitely depraved, yet I beat myself up because the Arminian assumption is that man can be restored by God to be almost perfect, and I always came short of that because I felt that I never let go of myself to let Jesus take over. It's crazy how theologies that are almost opposite both lead to the same doubts about salvation.

 

It seems that fear and anxiety about eternity is inherent in the system to motivate unquestioning obedience.

[TheDude]

This thread is old, but fascinating nonetheless.  I wanted to share my perspective as a ex-Baptist.  While I don't consider myself ex-Christian, because I still believe in and trust Christ, I left behind traditional Christianity a few years ago, because it had too many logical inconsistencies.  I now find myself hounded by so-called "Christian" people with a cult-like fervor that angrily scream and shout at me telling me that I'm going to Hell for being in a "cult" and that I am "not Christian".  The irony seems to escape them.

 

Some of the logical inconsistencies that troubled me include how frequently the people trapped in traditional Christianity describe beliefs that seem to be the equivalent of weasel clauses one would find in real estate contracts.  The OP described this concisely in the below example:
 

Quote

God does NOT send people to hell. People send themselves because they choose to disobey God and live life how they choose, that is, they are their own god. God does not make anyone go to hell but lets them freely choose who will they serve. In the end, those who chose to disobey God end up in hell as a natural consequence of their decisions where they will be tormented by the devil and his minions for eternity. Moreover, hell was not created for humans, but for the devil and his followers.

 

In the end, the argument is weaved in such a way to exonerate God of any wrongdoing or being morally culpable of the fact people are being punished forever.

 

[...]All of these people derive their idea of God from the Bible and it clearly states God is going to judge everyone (sheep and the goats) and when that is over, some will go to paradise and the others to the lake of fire. The idea that God is passive in this whole process is an absurdity and flies in the face of the text.

 

While I still believe in Hell, I no longer believe that all people who don't accept Christ are destined for Hell (Luke 5:32), and I am no longer trapped in the idea of Heaven and Hell being binary.  First, by a reasonable reading of the Old Testament and also Luke 16:19-31, one would get the idea that both good and evil people are destined for the same abode after death (which I refer to as the "Spirit World"), though one's place and specific treatment specific treatment therein differs based upon one's choices in life.

 

I believe that at some point, Christ will resurrect the good to live for a millennium on the Earth with him ruling over it (Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 John 3:1-3), and they will have the opportunity learn and grow to be capable of dwelling in Heaven with the Father, sharing in all that he has (Luke 6:40; Romans 8:13-17, 2 Corinthians 6:16-18; Galatians 4:5; Revelation 21:6-7).  After those thousand years, the filthy and wicked will be resurrected too (Revelation 20:5), and they will live in a lesser state (Revelation 22:15).  I believe that everyone in the Spirit World will be taught about Christ (1 Peter 3:18-20) and the degree to which they allow themselves to be changed there influences their state therein and their state afterwards once they are resurrected (2 Corinthians 3:18).  If they don't allow themselves to change even after gaining a perfect knowledge of who Christ is and how much they need them to become righteous, they will remain as they are (Revelation 22:11), and then and only then will they be cast into "the Lake of Fire".

Now, having said that, you can disagree with my perspective as you like, and that's fine with me.  I'm not going to shout you down about it...  I'm pretty sure doing so is about as unchristian as it gets as Christ himself said "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

[midniterider]

Will they stay in the Lake of Fire forever? Should they stay in there forever? Is Satan God's employee down there in Hell? Or is Satan 'the enemy' of God? I dont think Satan would have much reason to follow God's orders if he was God's enemy. If I was Satan I'd just extinguish the fire for the fun of it. lol. 

 

Anyway, enjoy your belief. I wont be sharing it. 

[TheDude]

3 hours ago, midniterider said:

Will they stay in the Lake of Fire forever? Should they stay in there forever? Is Satan God's employee down there in Hell? Or is Satan 'the enemy' of God? I dont think Satan would have much reason to follow God's orders if he was God's enemy. If I was Satan I'd just extinguish the fire for the fun of it. lol. 

 

Anyway, enjoy your belief. I wont be sharing it. 

 

I believe the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor for willful eternal separation from God (i.e., "outer darkness").  Anyone that makes it there will have made a conscious choice that they'd rather rebel against God for all eternity, including Lucifer and all his angels.  I don't think there are very many people that have ever existed or ever will on this planet that are capable of such a choice.

And while I don't begrudge you of your difference in opinion, I do believe you'll have a change of heart at some point, whether it be in this life after witnessing some unexplainable phenomenon, in the afterlife when you are surprised to still be conscious, or perhaps only when you see Christ for yourself.  Despite the humorous but mild prodding in your response, your willingness to show someone with a completely different belief system a modicum of civility tells me that you're certainly not an evil person and probably not even an unpleasant one, and I just know for myself that God doesn't throw decent people away because they failed to believe in this life.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 hours ago, TheDude said:

I believe

You are welcome to share your beliefs in The Lion's Den forum.  These other forums are not for proselytizing.  Thanks.

[midniterider]

7 hours ago, TheDude said:

 

I believe the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor for willful eternal separation from God (i.e., "outer darkness").  Anyone that makes it there will have made a conscious choice that they'd rather rebel against God for all eternity, including Lucifer and all his angels.  I don't think there are very many people that have ever existed or ever will on this planet that are capable of such a choice.

And while I don't begrudge you of your difference in opinion, I do believe you'll have a change of heart at some point, whether it be in this life after witnessing some unexplainable phenomenon, in the afterlife when you are surprised to still be conscious, or perhaps only when you see Christ for yourself.  Despite the humorous but mild prodding in your response, your willingness to show someone with a completely different belief system a modicum of civility tells me that you're certainly not an evil person and probably not even an unpleasant one, and I just know for myself that God doesn't throw decent people away because they failed to believe in this life.

 

I will try starting this discussion in a new thread in the lion's den. 

[TheDude]

  

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

You are welcome to share your beliefs in The Lion's Den forum.  These other forums are not for proselytizing.  Thanks.

If the post is intended to be a discussion about "the argument of Hell", and my comments are largely limited to an expression about the nature of Hell (and concurring that the traditional Christian belief in Hell doesn't seem rational), I am uncertain how they are "proselyting" rather than a contribution to the discussion offering some difference of opinion.  However, with that said, it's not my forum.

 

Quote

I will try starting this discussion in a new thread in the lion's den.

 

Thank you.  I will look for it.

[Joshpantera]

On 5/22/2021 at 11:03 AM, TheDude said:

If the post is intended to be a discussion about "the argument of Hell", and my comments are largely limited to an expression about the nature of Hell (and concurring that the traditional Christian belief in Hell doesn't seem rational), I am uncertain how they are "proselyting" rather than a contribution to the discussion offering some difference of opinion.  However, with that said, it's not my forum.

 

See proselytizing christian beliefs equipped with missionary style biblical citation below: 

 

On 5/21/2021 at 8:06 PM, TheDude said:

While I still believe in Hell, I no longer believe that all people who don't accept Christ are destined for Hell (Luke 5:32), and I am no longer trapped in the idea of Heaven and Hell being binary.  First, by a reasonable reading of the Old Testament and also Luke 16:19-31, one would get the idea that both good and evil people are destined for the same abode after death (which I refer to as the "Spirit World"), though one's place and specific treatment specific treatment therein differs based upon one's choices in life.

 

I believe that at some point, Christ will resurrect the good to live for a millennium on the Earth with him ruling over it (Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 John 3:1-3), and they will have the opportunity learn and grow to be capable of dwelling in Heaven with the Father, sharing in all that he has (Luke 6:40; Romans 8:13-17, 2 Corinthians 6:16-18; Galatians 4:5; Revelation 21:6-7).  After those thousand years, the filthy and wicked will be resurrected too (Revelation 20:5), and they will live in a lesser state (Revelation 22:15).  I believe that everyone in the Spirit World will be taught about Christ (1 Peter 3:18-20) and the degree to which they allow themselves to be changed there influences their state therein and their state afterwards once they are resurrected (2 Corinthians 3:18).  If they don't allow themselves to change even after gaining a perfect knowledge of who Christ is and how much they need them to become righteous, they will remain as they are (Revelation 22:11), and then and only then will they be cast into "the Lake of Fire".

 

This is academic type theological discussion, not a discussion of "beliefs" put out there for the possible conversion of members here. The reason being is that our members are mainly people who left christianity and we don't allow christians to come here preaching to our members all over the main forums. Trying to convert ex christians to some type of belief. They are safe from that sort of thing within our community. Many people have had enough of it, that's why they're here. 

 

Unless they venture off into the debate forums, where they can experience proselytizing christians in debate with the rest of us and take lessons from the exchanges if they so choose. That's where claims are challenged and strong evangelizing is met with equally strong counter apologetic's. It's an enter at your own risk zone with warnings. That's where we can then sort out heavily evangelized directions like the above quoted. 

[alreadyGone]

"Hell is... other people". - Sartre

 

"... is a metaphor"... 

Yeah, every portion of the bible is the inerrant word of God.

Except when any given passage is a metaphor.

 

And of course, it's on the believer to understand and discern which is which.

 

With your "eternal soul" in the balance, God plays mind-tricks and word-games with the truth.

 

I've been a fool all my life. But at this stage of life, I'm no longer quite foolish enough to follow that line of totally subjective 'reasoning'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheDude]

On 5/23/2021 at 8:50 PM, Joshpantera said:

This is academic type theological discussion

I suppose given the response, there is some latitude for discussion about it.  Since the thread is an academic discussion about the evidence of Hell, would it not be reasonable to cite the religious works of those that do believe in Hell as a basis for one's arguments either in the affirmative or negative position?

 

On 5/23/2021 at 8:50 PM, Joshpantera said:

The reason being is that our members are mainly people who left christianity and we don't allow christians to come here preaching to our members all over the main forums. Trying to convert ex christians to some type of belief.

Are you then saying one can only contribute to the discussion if one takes the negative position regarding the belief in some kind of deity?  This is not meant as sarcasm, it's an honest question to discern whether it's worth having conversations with people outside of the debate fora.

 

[florduh]

The only arguments or evidences for the existence of hell (or heaven, or fairies) are the opinions of various self proclaimed experts on the subject.

[TheDude]

1 minute ago, florduh said:

The only arguments or evidences for the existence of hell (or heaven, or fairies) are the opinions of various self proclaimed experts on the subject.

If that's the case, then it seems that having a discussion over it is pointless.

[midniterider]

On 5/24/2021 at 12:21 PM, alreadyGone said:

"Hell is... other people". - Sartre

 

"... is a metaphor"... 

Yeah, every portion of the bible is the inerrant word of God.

Except when any given passage is a metaphor.

 

And of course, it's on the believer to understand and discern which is which.

 

With your "eternal soul" in the balance, God plays mind-tricks and word-games with the truth.

 

I've been a fool all my life. But at this stage of life, I'm no longer quite foolish enough to follow that line of totally subjective 'reasoning'.

 

 

 

I'll just go with the bible is 100% metaphor...unless Jesus says otherwise.

[TheDude]

1 minute ago, midniterider said:

 

I'll just go with the bible is 100% metaphor...unless Jesus says otherwise.

Well I'd show you a few places where he is reported to indicate certain parts are to be taken literally, but that probably could be perceived as proselyting.  Instead, I'd mention that it's highly unlikely that most of the historical portions of the Bible are metaphorical.  We don't treat the writings of other ancient cultures that claim to record historical fact as metaphorical, especially when there are archeological findings that support at least part of their story, else we'd be deprived of nearly all of our historical understanding of the ancient world.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 hours ago, TheDude said:

If that's the case, then it seems that having a discussion over it is pointless.

And yet... here you are.

[alreadyGone]

8 hours ago, TheDude said:

Well I'd show you a few places where he is reported to indicate certain parts are to be taken literally, but that probably could be perceived as proselyting.  Instead, I'd mention that it's highly unlikely that most of the historical portions of the Bible are metaphorical.  We don't treat the writings of other ancient cultures that claim to record historical fact as metaphorical, especially when there are archeological findings that support at least part of their story, else we'd be deprived of nearly all of our historical understanding of the ancient world.

 

Is it your belief then that God guides believers to an awareness and understanding of what in the Bible is metaphor and what is verity?

 

Or, do you assert that God places that responsibility solely on the believer?

[TheDude]

15 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

Is it your belief then that God guides believers to an awareness and understanding of what in the Bible is metaphor and what is verity?

 

Or, do you assert that God places that responsibility solely on the believer?

I don't believe I can answer your question without the possibility of being perceived as proselyting.  Out of respect for the rules the moderators have set forth, let's continue the conversation in the Lion's Den within the "Does the idea of a Lake of Fire (Hell) really make any sense" thread.

[alreadyGone]

14 minutes ago, TheDude said:

I don't believe I can answer your question without the possibility of being perceived as proselyting.  Out of respect for the rules the moderators have set forth, let's continue the conversation in the Lion's Den within the "Does the idea of a Lake of Fire (Hell) really make any sense" thread.

 

Agreed.

Thank you for your response.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

36 minutes ago, TheDude said:

I don't believe I can answer your question without the possibility of being perceived as proselyting.  Out of respect for the rules the moderators have set forth, let's continue the conversation in the Lion's Den within the "Does the idea of a Lake of Fire (Hell) really make any sense" thread.

Thank you.