Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 25, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 24/01/2018 at 5:57 AM, ironhorse said: The Church is not a building but consists of all believers in Christ. A building or place these Christians meet is where the Church gathers to meet. These buildings were once called the Meeting House or Meeting Place. This is Christian doctrine not supported by the bible. The word Church never appears in the NT, let alone in reference to being the overarching term relating to Christians. It is a later term used to refer to groups of believers with common shared doctrine. Jesus called his followers the "Chosen" or "Called out" ones. Quote Attending these gatherings does not make one a Christian. Only by repentance and acceptance of Christ is a person baptized into the body of Christ, the Church. Believers are not perfect but are being made perfect by Christ. The Perfection will come when Christ gathers the Church at His return. Believers are not perfect (still sinners) but will be made perfect at the return of Christ’s return. This is your particular opinion, based on your doctrine. I can find a dozen people differing with you over your interpretation of the scriptures. Therefore you have no authority to speak for all Christians. Quote So, the Church is the Catholic (universal) body of believers in Christ. There is no universal body of believers. There is simply 1000's of differing doctrinal ideas that can be broadly classified as Christians. Suggesting that this is universal is ridiculous. Do you include Mormons under this universal body? Quote Since the Reformation believers have created various denominations. Most of them keep the scriptural view of the scriptures, Christ, and salvation. They are distinct in various minor doctrines and cultural, or social preferences. A denomination is in error if they push ahead a distinction in front the Gospel of Christ, ether intentionally or not. So, I agree that there are minor issues that do indeed cloud the message of Christ and do actually harm to some believers and those considering the Christian faith. I am a member of a small Baptist Church, but I am a part of the universal (Catholic) worldwide body of believers (living or now passed) of various denominations. Thoughts and comments welcome. I wasn't aware that differences that resulted in wars, bloodshed and killing, and that today can mean you go to heaven in one denomination, but hell in another were "minor issues". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Ironhorse garners respect solely from his longevity on this board. I cannot think of any time when Ironhorse has posted content of any significance. Ironhorse, BAA posed questions to you, which you never answered. Now he is not here to stand up for truth. The rest of us must do what we can. Do you believe God will submit Mark to an eternity of torment, because Mark went with what in his best judgment he understood to be true? We are all in the same boat. We only have our limited human perspectives, and our human compassion, when we can manage it, for each other. Ideologies like Christianity have done much to submerge that compassion beneath programs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 8 hours ago, ironhorse said: They are orthodox in their core beliefs therefore a Christian denomination. The word "orthodox" has been used over the centuries for some Christian sects to persecute other Christian sects. But which group really has the "right belief" - the sect that came first or the sect that changed their beliefs? (Edited for clarity) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 39 minutes ago, ficino said: We are all in the same boat. We only have our limited human perspectives, and our human compassion, when we can manage it, for each other. Ideologies like Christianity have done much to submerge that compassion beneath programs. This is a really good point, I think it's actually at the crux of whether some people can put beliefs that harm them or others behind them and move on. But there's a good many denominations that don't teach true compassion for everyone, and instead they divide and categorise. And you only get out of those if you see something wrong with that philosophy. Most are happy to believe they're special and with the "elect." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 13 hours ago, pratt said: so CHRISTIANS are as defined as who you like them to be as long as they have “CORE BELIEF” as declared in their statement of belief. Unlucky for you, you may considered them christians they are unlikely to do likewise I’m not defining correct teachings and Christians by what I LIKE, But by what the SCRIPTURES SAY: 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ…” Matthew 7:15 “Be careful of false prophets. They come to you and look gentle like sheep. But they are really dangerous like wolves.” First John 4:4 “My dear friends, many false prophets are in the world now. So don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.” Second Peter 2:1 “In the past there were false prophets among God’s people. It is the same now. You will have some false teachers in your group. They will teach things that are wrong – ideas that will cause people to be lost. And they will teach in a way that will be hard for you to see that they are wrong. They will even refuse to follow the Master who bought their freedom…” Romans 16:17-18 “And I exhort you, brothers, to watch those making divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches they deceive… “ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 25, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2018 19 minutes ago, ironhorse said: I’m not defining correct teachings and Christians by what I LIKE, But by what the SCRIPTURES SAY: 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ…” Matthew 7:15 “Be careful of false prophets. They come to you and look gentle like sheep. But they are really dangerous like wolves.” First John 4:4 “My dear friends, many false prophets are in the world now. So don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see if they are from God.” Second Peter 2:1 “In the past there were false prophets among God’s people. It is the same now. You will have some false teachers in your group. They will teach things that are wrong – ideas that will cause people to be lost. And they will teach in a way that will be hard for you to see that they are wrong. They will even refuse to follow the Master who bought their freedom…” Romans 16:17-18 “And I exhort you, brothers, to watch those making divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches they deceive… “ Yep, that's what they all say. Still, they can't seem to agree. Lucky for you it's always that other denomination that has the false prophet leading them astray. Always the other, because YOU got it right!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 10 hours ago, mymistake said: The word "orthodox" has been used over the centuries for some Christian sects to persecute other Christian sects. But which group really has the "right belief" - the sect that came first or the sect that changed their beliefs? (Edited for clarity) Interesting graph. One would gather that in faith, all the branches win/ are true. <goes to re-read tree analogy scripture>... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 22 minutes ago, end3 said: Interesting graph. One would gather that in faith, all the branches win/ are true. <goes to re-read tree analogy scripture>... In all seriousness and sincerity, I'm proud of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 hours ago, florduh said: Yep, that's what they all say. Still, they can't seem to agree. Lucky for you it's always that other denomination that has the false prophet leading them astray. Always the other, because YOU got it right!!! People can say they believe those scriptures. People say all kinds of things. I can I believe I am a mechanic, but unless I can actually repair an engine, I am not a mechanic. Unless what a teacher teaches aligns with scripture, it is a false teaching. Example The Mormons teach this: “Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)” Not one scripture in the OT or the NT verifies this teaching. It is a false teaching, not because I say it is, but because it is not verified by scripture. If I were a Buddhist and stated that one could free the spirit by denying the flesh, would you say that is just my opinion or a core teaching of Buddhism? If I said the flesh is good and should never be denied, would you say that is just my opinion or a false statement about Buddhism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Again Ironhorse, your pick and choose which scriptures you follow and which you reject and which you will symbolically keep as a powerless metaphor. What makes your particular choice the right mix? Those other denominations are just as scriptural as your denomination only they chose a different mix. Scriptures are a schmorgisbord where believes can take or leave whatever they want. You do it too. To put it another way, you can't show that your Bible is special. Pointing out that other sects do not follow your favorite version of the Bible is silly because you do not follow their scripture. You are just as guilty of being non-scriptural as they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 25, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, ironhorse said: It is a false teaching, not because I say it is, but because it is not verified by (MY) scripture. Fixed. Why are the Book of Mormon or any other religious texts irrelevant? What makes only the texts YOU accept the real deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 hours ago, florduh said: Fixed. Why are the Book of Mormon or any other religious texts irrelevant? What makes only the texts YOU accept the real deal? The Bible bluntly claims to be the truth (Psalm 119:160), and Christ repeated this claim (John 17:17). Other religious texts are irrelevant. I am here in the Lion’s Den as a believer in Christ. I view the scriptures as the Word of God that tells of God and his message to us. It’s the real deal to me because it claims to be the real deal. Of course, there are people who think it’s all “flying spaghetti monster” and a lie and irrelevant. We all make our choices. So, though some view this as stupid and silly, to me it is a living faith and message I believe with all my heart. I am here to share this view of the Christian faith and to try to answer objections made against it. I also point out those teaching error. My focus is the Christian faith. I have not spent time here trashing people of other religions or faith systems. Although I do see elements of truth in many other religions, I see only the whole truth in Christ. Why? Because he said he was the truth and only through him would one enter the Kingdom of God. Now, if I rejected that claim, then I might as well call him a liar and reject it all. Why would a good teacher lie? But I accept his claim as the only way. I have always encouraged people to read and study any religion they wish or study them all and decide which one to accept as truth. Read and study atheism. The bottom line is, whatever each of us believes, our faith is not only subjective, meaning what we believe, but also objective by what we believe in. We all make our choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 25, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2018 IH, I ask again, why are your accepted texts right and the others are wrong? That your texts say so is not an answer. To put it even more clearly, what are your reasons for accepting one and not accepting another? How do you choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Neither of those passages mentions "the Bible" and in fact the Christian Bible didn't exist when those passages were written. The Bible was created later. Ironhorse, this boils down to you are right because you believe you are right but other believers are wrong even though they sincerely believe their own religious teachings. And for clarity - atheism is not a religion any more than being bald is a hair color or not owning a TV is a television show. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 hours ago, ironhorse said: The Bible bluntly claims to be the truth (Psalm 119:160), and Christ repeated this claim (John 17:17). Other religious texts are irrelevant. The bible says the bible is truth? It's circular reasoning, imo. Jesus is a character in the bible. It is illogical to say that Jesus corroborates what it says in the bible because he is just a character in the bible. He didn't independently appear in person, outside of bible scripture and tell someone that the bible is truth. I am here in the Lion’s Den as a believer in Christ. I view the scriptures as the Word of God that tells of God and his message to us. It’s the real deal to me because it claims to be the real deal. Of course, there are people who think it’s all “flying spaghetti monster” and a lie and irrelevant. We all make our choices. Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that their belief system is the real deal? I'm sure they do. Therefore, you should be a Jehovah's Witness. It's the real deal because they said it's the real deal. So, though some view this as stupid and silly, to me it is a living faith and message I believe with all my heart. I am here to share this view of the Christian faith and to try to answer objections made against it. I also point out those teaching error. Christianity is error and the bible is error. I'm here to point out why Christianity is absurd. Circular reasoning is a poor reason to believe something. It is a flimsy foundation on which to base one's life, so therefore I cannot take it seriously. My focus is the Christian faith. I have not spent time here trashing people of other religions or faith systems. The JWs and Mormons might disagree. Although I do see elements of truth in many other religions, I see only the whole truth in Christ. Why? Because he said he was the truth and only through him would one enter the Kingdom of God. Now, if I rejected that claim, then I might as well call him a liar and reject it all. Why would a good teacher lie? Circular reasoning. I believe the book because the book says the book is true. Flimsy foundation. Why do you believe Jesus was a good teacher? Because the bible says he was? Jesus=Character-in-the-bible, so Jesus=Bible. Why would a good teacher lie? Christianity is a method to enslave the minds and cash flow of it's followers. You have been programmed from birth to accept this lifestyle and to be afraid of a non-existent being. But I accept his claim as the only way. I have always encouraged people to read and study any religion they wish or study them all and decide which one to accept as truth. Read and study atheism. Good. I decide to be agnostic. I don't feel the need to base my life on a book. I decide what my life is going to be on my own. Now if the criteria for truth is circular reasoning and something is real because I say it's real ... then I declare The Summerland to be my final place of rest. The bottom line is, whatever each of us believes, our faith is not only subjective, meaning what we believe, but also objective by what we believe in. Please elaborate on what you mean by 'faith is objective'. If I believe it, it becomes manifest? As above, so below? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Lol. This guy and his circular logic. ‘Its true cause it says its true cause it says its true cause...’ smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 6 hours ago, florduh said: IH, I ask again, why are your accepted texts right and the others are wrong? That your texts say so is not an answer. To put it even more clearly, what are your reasons for accepting one and not accepting another? How do you choose? oh the origins of canonisation of the bible whereby a few of the fat assed monks in Hippo or somewhere is central europe or middle east or africa decided to have a round table to discuss what to incl into the “BIBLE” which ironhorse is quoting. gospels according to Mary, Thomas or Judas is not incl because ironhorse says so or titaniumass or ferrosheep someone in the inner circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedouin Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 There’s no difference between a church and a denomination, because all denominations have churches, each with either glaring or subtle differences, and each declaring that theirs are THE ONE. If there were a clear, indisputable path to salvation, seems to me that the deity could have, and would have made it clear to everyone in exactly the same way. Any cursory examination of religious beliefs worldwide will show that this is plainly not true. You IH, seem to be convinced that it’s your way or the highway. Amen. So be it. What I object to is you making obviously false and ill thought out assertions, using excerpts from a book that most of us were brought up to believe as true beyond question, to deliberately confound critical thought of those, on this forum, who are sincerely seeking their own answers. Muddying the waters, as it were. So here’s my challenge to you IH. Read the books that were arbitrarily excluded from what we know as the Bible: https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Other_Bible.html?id=J9aKaGTOQDAC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button You said in another post that reading was important. So...read. And please, please, for once be intellectually honest, because, from what I’ve seen, you sloppily assert that which is demonstrably unprovable using only things which you have heard, or have been taught, all the while claiming that you have studied extensively, while it’s fairly obvious to me, at least, that you have most definitely not done. Read, man. Read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 9 hours ago, ironhorse said: The Bible bluntly claims to be the truth (Psalm 119:160), and Christ repeated this claim (John 17:17). Other religious texts are irrelevant. I am here in the Lion’s Den as a believer in Christ. I view the scriptures as the Word of God that tells of God and his message to us. It’s the real deal to me because it claims to be the real deal. . You're certainly right in that we all make our choices. You have chosen to believe that what's in a book is true because the book says it's true. Or more likely, you havnt chosen and you were indoctrinated like me, taught to believe that the bible is an ultimate truth and that one must worship it because it's the word of God. Likely you were also never told about the really nasty stuff in that book (have you read the part about bashing babies yet?) or then you wrote off such nastiness because one must never question god, or god's actions, or aims. One must accept the lie that his very questionable ethics are indeed loving and kind and well intentioned. It's amazing how immune Christians are to just how positively wacky the bible is. As long as you keep worshipping it, you'll be sitting here going around in circles claiming that you know the truth because it's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 26, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 26, 2018 9 hours ago, ironhorse said: It’s the real deal to me because it claims to be the real deal. I'm sure we have pointed this out before, but this is circular reasoning. Many books claim to be the real deal. The Jews think the Torah is the real deal and the Christian bible and doctrines are false. The Muslims think the Quran is the real deal and that you are an idolitor who worships more than one God. All of these books claim to be the real deal but their teachings are mutually exclusive. Explain then how just taking the claim that something is the real deal can actually lead you to what is factually correct? Aren't you basically saying you want to believe because you want to believe? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readyforchange Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 On 1/24/2018 at 11:56 AM, ironhorse said: Also, Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple in the Gospels: "As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down," (Luke 21:6, see also Matt. 24:2; Mark 13:2). Undoubtedly, if Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written after the destruction of the Temple, they would have included the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy in them. Since they don't, it is very strong indication that they were written before 70 A.D. In the synoptic gospels, the prophecy in the Olivet discourse when Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem could just as easily have been the use of a foreshadowing technique by the gospel authors, retroactively writing after the fact and having Jesus predict the temple destruction the authors already were aware of. The logic that the synoptic gospels must have been written before 70 CE because they do not mention the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem is also flawed, because it does not take into consideration the motivations and intents of the authors, nor the time period that the author intended to cover. Matthew and Luke are like biographies of Jesus with the scope essentially being the birth, ministry, death, resurrection of Jesus, with Mark starting from Jesus' baptism. Events that span a timeframe of ~4 BCE to ~ 33 CE. If the intent of an author was to write an account of events that occurred from ~ 4 BCE to ~ 33 CE, would the author necessarily include events that occurred after that time? Someone could sit down today in 2018 and write a "new" gospel about Jesus and still not necessarily mention the destruction of the temple, if author only intends write about events specific to Jesus' life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aries256 Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 On 1/23/2018 at 1:49 PM, end3 said: Sure, there's sin. Let's look at the tax analogy. God charges 10%. Free humanity, i.e. the United States is higher than God's tax bracket. I expect if we would sin less, the tax would be less. What sin? Living life? Having fun? Enjoying one or more people intimately? Eating shrimp or pork? Etc etc etc? Sin is only the invention of your mythology, it exists about as much as your “god”, or the diamond crapping dragon in my garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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