#metoo

[Bedouin]

Hi folks.

 

Need some feedback here.

 

I'm a male that finds females attractive.  In the past few months, allegations of sexual harassment have been met with severe penalties for the alleged perpetrator.  In some cases, justified (looking straight at Donald J Trump).  In others, not so much.

 

To cut to the chase, how is it that a mere allegation results in such a fierce response.

 

An example.  I have worked with a guy, for years.  I've never, ever seen him disrespect a woman in any way.  But, a woman said that he actually rubbed up against her, in a blatantly sexual way, in front of supposed witnesses.  This woman has known him for years.  YEARS.  Conveniently, no cameras, even though this alleged assault happened in the reception area.

 

This man has his own woman.  And, I've known him for years.  I know him to be a good and honest man.

 

The mere allegation got him fired, from a US Government job, asap.  There was no inquiry, no due diligence, not even an effort to have him defend himself.  Summarily dismissed.

 

Let me add that this man had been recently diagnosed with colon cancer, and had asked for leave to receive treatment.  My employers answer was to force resignation amid a mere accusation of sexual harassment.

 

I can't, won't even say to a female co-worker "nice dress." or, "you look nice today."  But I get compliments on my looks every day from women.  Full disclosure, I DO clean up nice.

 

To sum up...men and women are quite naturally attracted.  Mutual respect is paramount.  But, IMHO, this has gotten out of hand.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[Geezer]

We have reached a point in the hysteria that the mere accusation is sufficient to declare the victim guilty. The only recourse an accused has it to sue the person that made the accusation & the former employer for economic damages & emotional distress. 

 

If victims don't start fighting back no man will be safe in the workplace. It seems to have reached the place where any communication with a female in the work place can potentially put the male at risk. Maybe men should start recording every conversation that takes place in the workplace with any female.

[ConsiderTheSource]

OMg.... guys, the word in the WORKPLACE is respect.  Treat all of your female coworkers with the same respect you would your mother. 

 

You are getting in trouble because you let your biology interfere with doing your job. 

[Thurisaz]

These days it's a sick combo of "feminists" who have long stopped fighting for equality (because they pretty much have it already, at least in western countries) and begun fighting for a matriarchic supremacy, and courts who still believe that women are poor weak victims who must be protected at any cost.

 

Make a claim about sexual harrassment where she's the victim and he's the perpetrator - every fucking one will believe you. The other way round, and you're a sexist asshole... and all that without any evidence being presented. It has become an "everyone knows that..." dogma that can stand up to every religious dogma on this planet. I can easily imagine that there are more male then sexual perpetrators in that field, but let's face it, we'll never really know... because everyone who does serious research about that knows that, if the result is not "(nearly) all women in this constellation are victims", they're socially done. The witch hunters will tear them apart.

 

And as judges and jurors are only humans too...

[ToHellWithMe]

I wonder what the resident feminists' take on this would be. How would they personally handle the possibility of false accusations?

[Guest Ann]

7 hours ago, Bedouin said:

To cut to the chase, how is it that a mere allegation results in such a fierce response.

Every allegation should be investigated....and should be handled as "innocent until proven guilty," but sadly this is not the case for now. I also believe there should be consequences for false accusations....but the "tricky" part is all accusations should require proof.

 

7 hours ago, Bedouin said:

The mere allegation got him fired, from a US Government job, asap.  There was no inquiry, no due diligence, not even an effort to have him defend himself.  Summarily dismissed.

This seems weird....maybe you don't have the whole story? If the above is true, then this man should sue the shit out of these people.

 

7 hours ago, Bedouin said:

I can't, won't even say to a female co-worker "nice dress." or, "you look nice today."  But I get compliments on my looks every day from women.

A double standard that is not fair. Both sexes deal with double standards on a daily basis, but that does not make them fair or correct. IMO, some women "ruin it" for other women who enjoy a nice compliment. Some men "ruin it" for other men by going too far and turning a nice compliment into creepyville.

 

7 hours ago, Bedouin said:

This man has his own woman.  And, I've known him for years.  I know him to be a good and honest man.

This doesn't matter as good men have been wrongly accused as well as "good" or "nice" men have been proven to be rapist, serial killers, etc... only evidence matters.

 

7 hours ago, Bedouin said:

But, IMHO, this has gotten out of hand.

Agree.

[Guest Ann]

6 hours ago, Geezer said:

If victims don't start fighting back no man will be safe in the workplace. It seems to have reached the place where any communication with a female in the work place can potentially put the male at risk. Maybe men should start recording every conversation that takes place in the workplace with any female.

Sounds a little paranoid, but I understand the sentiment. If I may "flip" the above to women fearing all men in the workplace because "they" are all predators and one never knows when a man might "attack" or sexually assault a female...... that paints all men the same which is wrong and not fair or true. Not all women want to hurt men and accuse them unfairly of sexual assault.  Just as women need to be careful in the workplace with their male colleagues, so men need to be careful as well and not put themselves in potentially "bad" situations because "we" never really know until it is too late what kind of people are around us in the workplace. If I was a man, esp in today's climate...I would never be alone with any female for any reason at work....just in case one of the women I work with be crazy;)  A personal policy of mine... to not be alone with a male co-worker or a student, ever....it's just common sense, no?

[Wertbag]

44 minutes ago, Ann said:

I would never be alone with any female for any reason at work....A personal policy of mine... to not be alone with a male co-worker or a student, ever....it's just common sense, no?

Really depends on the work place, plenty of jobs have cross department communication and simply refusing to talk to colleagues without a chaperone isn't practical.

In NZ, companies are scared to fire people as the employees have great legal protection. Wrongful dismissal will get them sued for large amounts so none would risk firing without a rock solid case against the offender. Sounds like the US needs to get that same standard in place.

[Geezer]

I realize sexual harassment is a real thing, and I am aware that sexual predators do exist in the work place. The problem is the accusation is often all that is required to cause loss of employment. An inquiry with the presentation of evidence & witnesses is what is missing. The assumption of guilt is the problem. That assumption must be replaced with procedures to establish guilt or innocence before employers take action. I would think that is just common sense.

 

The same problem exist for those that are accused of being racists.

[disillusioned]

There's another thing here that I think needs to be mentioned.

 

First I want to say that this is a very real issue. It's good that it is coming to light. But I think we need to be careful that we don't get carried away. But, in addition to the issues explored above, there's another problem that I can see. It's almost as if we (the cultural "we", of course) have stopped caring entirely about degrees of wrongness. For example, I was recently criticized harshly by family and friends for expressing the opinion that what Louis CK did was not as bad as what Bill Cosby did. Note that I was not defending what Louis CK did. It was wrong. But what Bill Cosby did was worse. No one seems to care about that anymore.

 

Sexual harassment should be cracked down on. But is it fair to hand out the same punishment for a passing comment as for a grope, or for a grope as for a rape? I don't think so, and I think we need to be careful that we don't go further down this road of treating all these offences as equally bad.

[mymistake]

12 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

OMg.... guys, the word in the WORKPLACE is respect.  Treat all of your female coworkers with the same respect you would your mother. 

 

You are getting in trouble because you let your biology interfere with doing your job. 

 

 

I know you mean well but this advise just isn't helpful because nobody is sexually attracted to their own mother.  Let's get real.  At work pretend that you are not attracted to people.  Of course you will be attracted to some people but keep your poker face on and pretend you are not.  Make brief eye contact occasionally but other than that don't look at people while you are at work.  When somebody is talking directly to you then you are allowed to make eye contact a bit more often but glance away more than half the time.  As others have said, avoid being alone in one on one situations as much as possible.  That is how to survive.

 

 

[ConsiderTheSource]

56 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

I know you mean well but this advise just isn't helpful because nobody is sexually attracted to their own mother.  Let's get real.  At work pretend that you are not attracted to people.  Of course you will be attracted to some people but keep your poker face on and pretend you are not.  Make brief eye contact occasionally but other than that don't look at people while you are at work.  When somebody is talking directly to you then you are allowed to make eye contact a bit more often but glance away more than half the time.  As others have said, avoid being alone in one on one situations as much as possible.  That is how to survive.

 

 

I said to have the same level of respect.  I never said to pretend you are not attracted to other people.

 

Make this choice upfront, and spend your natural sexual energy interacting with people outside of work.  Work relationships need to stay work relationship.  Yes, there were several highly intelligent woman at work I was quite attracted to at work.  Yes, i thought about them in a sexual way.  But, I cared enough about them to not act on any of these thoughts.  It's called empathy.  It is called respect.   I would expect the same from them.  

 

It is very doable.  Besides, I am quite certain my off hours fantasizing about these "amazing" women was a lot more satisfying than any attempt at a "real" relationship would of been, especially given the work relationship conflicts and stresses that would or could result. 

[Margee]

20 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 Besides, I am quite certain my off hours fantasizing about these "amazing" women was a lot more satisfying than any attempt at a "real" relationship would of been, especially given the work relationship conflicts and stresses that would or could result. 

1

^ This. I've been in enough relationships in my life to know that once the thrill wears off after the infatuation period....it's the same ole'-same ole'.  People are humans and we all have our good and bads traits. When you first meet someone, most of us fall for the, ''I finally found my soulmate bullshit''. Ya gotta work at being 'soulmates'. The workplace is the most dangerous place for infatuation. I'm so glad I only had to work with gay men. 

 

And yes, woman are taking this much too far.

[Bedouin]

The incident that I described in my OP didn't happen behind closed doors.  As I said, it supposedly happened in the reception area of the HR department with at least one witness.  Now, I can't imagine that anyone would be so stupid as to make sexually suggestive contact in such an open area.  Human Resources no less.  I know my friend, and he's not that stupid.

 

My friend has cancer, and of course needs treatment.  He requested leave to get treatment.  Seems to me that this was a way to not have to pay him while he was getting treatment.  BTW, the accuser works in HR.

 

Having said that, respect, in or out of the workplace, should be the rule.  I get it.  But I've had a woman, where I work, ask if she could come to my bed.  If I had gone to HR and complained of an unwanted sexual approach, what do you think would have happened?  I told her no because 1) I don't shit where I eat and 2) I have a wonderful woman in my life, and let it go.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Men,

 

Time to demand justice. Hire attornies. Build class-action lawsuits against those Penis Punishers en-mass. Clog Courts so badly that Employers think twice about accepting mere accusations for  "raisons de mettre fin à l'emploi".

Cause jurisdictions to open, fund and man Korts just for harassment adjudication. 

 

Burn the System to ground under ever increasing weight of useless paper generated by people with agendas that will in the end eat itself.

 

k,UnabashedRetinaStainingBastard,FL

[Geezer]

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

 

I know you mean well but this advise just isn't helpful because nobody is sexually attracted to their own mother.  Let's get real.  At work pretend that you are not attracted to people.  Of course you will be attracted to some people but keep your poker face on and pretend you are not.  Make brief eye contact occasionally but other than that don't look at people while you are at work.  When somebody is talking directly to you then you are allowed to make eye contact a bit more often but glance away more than half the time.  As others have said, avoid being alone in one on one situations as much as possible.  That is how to survive.

 

 

 

Right, so when your very hot co-worker is wearing a low cut blouse and her boobs just about fall out of her blouse every time she bends over, just ignore her! Kind of like the short shirts and the constant leg crossing. Just ignore it even when she shows you the crotch of her panties. Just pretend like you never noticed. This will work if you're gay, not so sure it works that well for a young heterosexual male though. 

 

The worst situation is when she is wearing a flimsy bra and the shadow of her nipples are visible. I assure you no normal guy can voluntarily avert is eyes from that. 

 

You might want to keep a book, magazine, or pillow available to put in your lap in the event the situation becomes to "hard" to manage. Your visible sign of sexual arousal might be grounds for your dismissal. (And keep a pair of dark glasses available at all times.)

 

 

Kind of like telling your dog not to eat the sandwich you left on the TV tray when you went to the bathroom. 

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

I said to have the same level of respect.  I never said to pretend you are not attracted to other people.

 

 

Correct.  I am the one who said pretend you are not attracted to other people.  My position is that it has nothing to do with respect.

 

 

1 hour ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

Make this choice upfront, and spend your natural sexual energy interacting with people outside of work.  Work relationships need to stay work relationship.   

 

I completely agree.  That is the best way to survive in this environment.

 

 

1 hour ago, ConsiderTheSource said:

 But, I cared enough about them to not act on any of these thoughts.  It's called empathy.  It is called respect.  

 

I completely disagree.  I don't hit on men because I find them to be completely repulsive.  I could have all the respect in the world for a woman and if she is attractive I would still want to ask her out.

 

Edit: Empathy largely involves using your imagination to guess what the other person is thinking.  Now if you are using your empathy to imagine what somebody would want from you when they do not find you attractive then we are just using different words to describe the same thing.

 

 

And to Geezer:

17 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

 This will work if you're gay, not so sure it works that well for a young heterosexual male though.  

 

17 minutes ago, Geezer said:

 

Kind of like telling your dog not to eat the sandwich you left on the TV tray when you went to the bathroom. 

 

I didn't say it would be easy.  Why do you think all these men are getting accused of sexual harassment?  One thing is for sure it isn't because they don't find women attractive.

 

Edit:  Pretending you are not attracted to other women in public is part of the job of being a husband so the same skills translate right into the work place.  That is also not easy and guys should take that into consideration before getting married.  But come on, all guys have been in a situation where they know they will get in trouble for flirting with somebody they are not suppose to flirt with so instead they wear a poker face.  You don't have to like it but it is the world we live in.  

 

 

[Bedouin]

2 minutes ago, mymistake said:

I didn't say it would be easy.  Why do you think all these men are getting accused of sexual harassment?  One thing is for sure it isn't because they don't find women attractive.

 

 

 

Any male over the age of 10 has either committed or at the very least thought of committing sexual "harassment."  I know that as a younger man I have.  With age comes wisdom, and I learned the lesson well.  I know when to turn away from high winds and threatening seas.

 

[midniterider]

27 minutes ago, SkipNChurch said:

Men,

 

Time to demand justice. Hire attornies. Build class-action lawsuits against those Penis Punishers en-mass. Clog Courts so badly that Employers think twice about accepting mere accusations for  "raisons de mettre fin à l'emploi".

Cause jurisdictions to open, fund and man Korts just for harassment adjudication. 

 

Burn the System to ground under ever increasing weight of useless paper generated by people with agendas that will in the end eat itself.

 

k,UnabashedRetinaStainingBastard,FL

 

I'm sure some men are being pervs ... as well as some women unscrupulously abusing the current corporate trend of "fire-first, don't bother asking questions later."

 

And yes, I think attorneys could make some bank on these uninvestigated termination cases. Force businesses to actually investigate a claim or fear paying out some $$ in a civil suit. I'm glad the place I worked at was protected by a union.

 

I do understand that obtaining evidence could be tricky, then again body cams and other tiny web cams and audio recording systems exist that could nail the pervs. Even a workmate with their smartphone could capture some asshole touching you wrong.

 

Submission to a polygraph should be one of the terms of employment everywhere as well as mediation/arbitration by an independent company. If someone makes a sexual misconduct claim, then they either submit to a polygraph or the case is dropped. The accused needs to submit to a polygraph or they are fired. The employer can make a decision based on some evidence then.

 

And why is the punishment always termination of employment? I think punishment should depend on the level of lewdness. Employees need to be aware that an accusation does not equal termination of someone. First there will be an employer's investigation. If it fits a crime definition then it will be handed over to the police as a criminal case. Why employers spend lots of money to hire someone then later on fire them on some flimsy excuse is odd...well, except maybe they can pay a replacement less money.

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Geezer said:

 

Right, so when your very hot co-worker is wearing a low cut blouse and her boobs just about fall out of her blouse every time she bends over, just ignore her! Kind of like the short shirts and the constant leg crossing. Just ignore it even when she shows you the crotch of her panties. Just pretend like you never noticed. This will work if you're gay, not so sure it works that well for a young heterosexual male though. 

 

 

New workplace tactic: If accused of sexual misconduct by a woman, come out as gay. In fact, just pretend to be openly gay as soon as you get hired as a preemptive tactic.

 

We used to have that low cut blouse issue at my work, but the less attractive supervisors pushed for uniform shirts and pants to cover up all that good stuff.

 

BTW, I married my (female) boss. LoL.

[Bedouin]

11 minutes ago, midniterider said:

well, except maybe they can pay a replacement less money.

 

Exactly.  The guy has cancer and has asked for time off for treatment.  The ubiquitous "they," in this case our employer didn't want to pay for this.  Even though the man is a Viet Nam Veteran, working at a Veterans Administration Medical Center.

[mymistake]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

BTW, I married my (female) boss. LoL.

 

 

So did I.  But nobody ever caught us acting the slightest bit affectionate on company property.

 

[midniterider]

We kept it professional at work. 

[Bedouin]

Full disclosure:  My woman and I work at the same place.  But we didn't meet there (we met on Plenty of Fish),  don't work in the same department, work different shifts, and make it a point to keep our relationship totally separate from work.  Nobody at the job knows we are a couple.

[Thurisaz]

23 hours ago, ToHellWithMe said:

I wonder what the resident feminists' take on this would be. How would they personally handle the possibility of false accusations?

 

(Sooo many replies lately, I admit I just skimmed most of them... hope I didn't miss anythin important )

 

For feminists there are no false accusations. The existence of a penis on the other persons body is 100 % proof of them being evil rapist sexist (append 20 other bad traits here).