Thurisaz Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Bottom line of it all, while feminism is the source of the problem (or, we might also argue, as feminism in the beginning was a reaction to conservative views of women, those old-timey views were), the situation has escalated so much that it's now independent of its source. It has become an "everyone knows that" dogma that men are always guilty when women say something bad about them. This means that the journaille, the courts, and most of the people believe that these days (or at least that's their first instinctive reaction to such claims). Imagine that the feminist bullshit was around but media still looked at any topic from both sides and courts would still investigate every case individually, without any such preconceptions. Feminism would die quickly, and not be missed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I find it laughable that this thread is being dominated by the gender least impacted by #metoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 27 minutes ago, ConsiderTheSource said: least impacted That is arguable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ann Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 36 minutes ago, Thurisaz said: Bottom line of it all, while feminism is the source of the problem (or, we might also argue, as feminism in the beginning was a reaction to conservative views of women, those old-timey views were), the situation has escalated so much that it's now independent of its source. It has become an "everyone knows that" dogma that men are always guilty when women say something bad about them. This means that the journaille, the courts, and most of the people believe that these days (or at least that's their first instinctive reaction to such claims). Imagine that the feminist bullshit was around but media still looked at any topic from both sides and courts would still investigate every case individually, without any such preconceptions. Feminism would die quickly, and not be missed. I have to disagree with you that feminism is the source of the problem...isn't the source of the problem that people are being hurt and abused? I guess it feels that way to some men as the #metoo frenzy is in full swing, which is a harmful distraction to the problem at hand. I shared the below on different thread and sharing it here as well....it doesn't have anything to do with abuse in the workplace, but think the sentiment works here too. It's about a priest accused of abuse and a comment was made that brought up a good question of evidence or lack there of and if "we" should just believe a person of being guilty without evidence. I give no solutions, as I don't have any....just food for thought. It's the same....in this case he said, he said. It's a matter of who to believe. The adults that say they were molested as children or the priest? The priest (I'm guessing because I don't know) maybe admitted to it? He was "moved" as they do in the church and there has been evidence with letters (not in this case...again don't have that info) in the past of bishops moving "troubled" priests in other countries. It boils down to... do people believe the accusers or the people accused? The only evidence I'm aware of is the men who say that it happened. I tend to believe (I'm aware this is my double standard) the victims, esp male victims...and when there are many victims that come forward.....like in the Bill Cosby case...there is only the word of the many against the one since this kind of abuse is rarely if never "caught on tape" and perpetrators are notorious for denying what they did. I was a victim of a nasty pedo next door neighbor as a child. I spoke up and although he admitted it, nothing was ever done and he never faced any consequences. Sometimes I think the damage done by my parents doing nothing was as troubling for me as the abuse that happened. The weird thing is, for me, was when I got older and started putting the pieces together of what really happened and talked with my other girlfriends about it, so many of them also shared their stories. I was shocked by the number of of friends who also experienced abuse as it is true that I felt (and they felt) very alone, like we were the only ones and it didn't give me comfort to know I wasn't alone....it pissed me off! It is so important for victims to speak out...but I really don't know how to protect potential and almost assuredly people who will be falsely accused. I just know this kind of shit happens more than people are aware of and it needs to stop. It's not fair that innocent people will and have already been swept up in the #metoo movement and it makes me sick that those people will be hurt by a false accusation. I mean, how can a person really defend themselves against a false accusation? That person will be seen as guilty and also a dick for defending themselves and their lives are ruined. I really don't know what the solution is......but I want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted January 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2018 On 1/27/2018 at 2:43 PM, Bedouin said: To sum up...men and women are quite naturally attracted. Mutual respect is paramount. But, IMHO, this has gotten out of hand. Thoughts? This sums up the situation, and it is this concern that resulted in Fwee's #metoo thread. Fwee was drawing attention to the fact that this has gone from genuine concern to witch hunt. There is no longer justice. It's trial by social media, often by anonymous females who face no repercussions if their allegations are false. Like you I am very cautious about my behavior in the workplace. Do not get caught alone with a woman. One day women are going to complain that men don't compliment them, that there's no romance. And I'm like well I fucking wonder why!!!??? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 This isn't serious. When I was younger and much better looking than I am now, I had done to me regularly what would be considered off limits if it occurred to women today. I found it flattering as I'm sure sane women do. It's wrong to hold someone's job over there head for sexual favors. We all know this and there are laws against it. But nothing wrong with allowing people to be human and interact like humans without getting all uptight about it. That some do now is a societal sickness. It's not healthy and it's probably just one more tactic the elite uses to keep society divided in Hegelian fashion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Ann said: I have to disagree with you that feminism is the source of the problem...isn't the source of the problem that people are being hurt and abused? Certainly. What I meant is that feminism these days shines a spotlight on people hurting other people... if the perpetrators are male and the victims female (well, that or children of either gender). I wouldn't mind much if they pointed out existing prejudices and presented a fair view as alternative... but the way they act now, nope. So yes, I guess I should have said that better. Technically, we're both right I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedouin Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 Society’s mindset, particularly here in US seems to be similar to the current Christian trope - “god said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” Can a man accuse another man of sexual harassment in the workplace? What happens in that scenario? For that matter, what happens if a woman accuses another woman? Can abuse only happen between opposite genders? Are we missing the possibility that this is, and always has been a power thing? Because for most of our history on this planet our societies have been predominantly patriarchal, with woman being if not outright chattel, then at least on a lower rung, and this has changed dramatically, with women now pretty much on equal footing with men (except in terms of pay in some professions). I guess what I’m asking is what is really going on here? #metoo seems to be an outgrowth that results from very real anger and frustration that women have had to hold in until now when the floodgates have been opened. So what if the event actually happened! You, Mr. Man, have done it! If not to me, then surely to another. And if I happen to be rolling in dough, so much the better. BTW this is a picture of the "founder" of the #metoo movement. I don't find her especially attractive. Buy hey, to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted January 28, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2018 One of the biggest 'fights' I had with the invisible god was why he would make humans the way he made them? When I was dabbling in evolution, I came to find out that girls start their menstrual cycles very early in life so they can have babies. I was 8 years old. Ready to have babies and reproduce because that's what the menstrual cycle is all about. And I developed very early. Mom bought me my first bra at nine years old and I wanted to die of embarrassment. I was still playing with Barbie dolls but was fully developed. And I also felt those sexual feelings at that age but would NEVER tell anyone because I truly did not know what was happening to me. It's a very confusing time for girls. (and boys) And I know that guys must go through the same thing. I caught my grandson around 7 years old masturbating and I knew it was the beginning of him losing his innocence. Then as you are growing up hormones are raging in both sexes and a lot of people spend a lifetime feeling guilty because they touched each other or had sex at a very early age. We were taught that it was wrong. Then came all the shit about being a virgin on your wedding night. Oops, too late for a lot of us and then more guilt. And then all through baby making years, horny woman are just as magnetized to men.. as men are to a woman. It's all about reproduction. We had all kinds of ''Metoo'' shit in our family. One of my grandfathers was taken away from children. My other grandfather got caught at the end of his life when all the girls came forward and told on him and it wasn't pretty. He once 'french kissed' me and I thought I was going to throw up because I loved and trusted my granddad. I never wanted to go near him after that. Behind the hairdresser's chair, you hear every story in the book and it was not long before I became very angry at god for making us like he did. Men were cheating on their wives and woman were cheating on their husbands. If they weren't cheating they were flirting like crazy. All my men were big flirts with other women after the infatuation wore off with the relationship at hand and it hurt my heart just terrible. And yet I have to admit, I also was attracted to other people during what was considered a 'stable' relationship. It was all so confusing. I used to pray about these issues all the time. And all these sexual things were going on even within the church. What bothers me now today is the attack on so many men that would be innocent as in Bedouin s' friend. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Originally the Metoo movement was about getting abusers out of power. That is still a nobel goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 26 minutes ago, mymistake said: Originally the Metoo movement was about getting abusers out of power. That is still a nobel goal. I don't buy it. (no offense to you MM, I'm referring to the movement, not you or your opinion) It's just been a witch hunt and a tit for tat against political enemies. 90% of those in the movement will vote for Creepy Joe if he is the DNC nominee. If there are real abusers, give them their day in court. This is just vigilantism. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Okay, I could be wrong. Who gained politically by removing Harvey Weinstein and Roy Price? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 18 minutes ago, mymistake said: Okay, I could be wrong. Who gained politically by removing Harvey Weinstein and Roy Price? I don't know Roy Price, but Weinstein was low-hanging fruit and maybe part of the tit for tat since he was a big dem supporter. He was sure to get swept up in it. What I saw at the beginning were a bunch of democrats from the Pussy Hat movement hoping they could bring down Trump. Trump probably deserves whatever he gets but this appeared to have started in that way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I am so disappointed in the level of conformation bias in this discussion. I probably should't be. Is seems to dominate human nature. It is just more pronounced in indoctrinated social groups. I am glad most folks here seem to exercise a higher level, and application, of critical thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 1 hour ago, ConsiderTheSource said: I am so disappointed in the level of conformation bias in this discussion. I probably should't be. Is seems to dominate human nature. It is just more pronounced in indoctrinated social groups. I am glad most folks here seem to exercise a higher level, and application, of critical thinking. I don't think you're fully cognizant of the topic here. Your input here was that at a workplace you're not supposed to pursue women but to keep it all respectfully professional. That's fine, and others have seconded this. It's not the point of contention, however. This thread is about accusations being enough reason to exact punishment. About there being no due process, no presumption of innocence, and treating lack of tact the same as serious sexual assault. Please get on board with the premises of this discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 55 minutes ago, ToHellWithMe said: I don't think you're fully cognizant of the topic here. Your input here was that at a workplace you're not supposed to pursue women but to keep it all respectfully professional. That's fine, and others have seconded this. It's not the point of contention, however. This thread is about accusations being enough reason to exact punishment. About there being no due process, no presumption of innocence, and treating lack of tact the same as serious sexual assault. Please get on board with the premises of this discussion. You mind reading is way off base. I brought my observation of confirmation bias creeping into the discussion. I simply prefer evidence over independent self serving statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 8 hours ago, ConsiderTheSource said: You mind reading is way off base. I brought my observation of confirmation bias creeping into the discussion. I simply prefer evidence over independent self serving statements. Accusations of CB and actually demonstrating it are two very different animals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 39 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: No one should be locked up on accusation alone without a criminal trial, but if the nature of the accusation is aggressive then businesses have a liability to terminate that person unless immediate evidence is found to exonerate them, such as a witness or camera. Depending on the situation , how about leave with/without pay pending investigation. An allegation of unwanted sexual advances/touching is often a crime. An employee who is a crime victim should be required to file a police report as part of the company's sexual harrassment reporting protocol. I'm old, white and a male and I would not deem it fair to be terminated because someone lied to the boss about my groping them. Would you, a young white (?) male happily leave your employment for the greater good of the women and children of the world if you had been merely accused of a horrid sex act? Or would you be a little pissed? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 10 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: Due process is guaranteed by the law, not necessarily by an employer. Hey, I can actually respect this. Employees should ideally be fireable at any time and for any reason or no given reason at all. But let me give you this counterpoint: the employer could just fire the women for causing drama. They should be just as free to do that, shouldn't they? 9 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: I don't think a character witness is reliable to repudiate an accusation. Well obviously it isn't absolute evidence but it is a piece of evidence. If you want to throw it away categorically, tell me what protects the innocent from false accusations then? 20 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: Men are now not getting the benefit of the doubt Hah, tell me about it. This is the very problem. Presumption of innocence is a base pillar of justice. It can be hard to produce exonerating evidence if you're not expecting to be accused of something. 39 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: I could be wrong too, but it seems most likely that he did harass someone in a rather aggressive way and someone else was apparently witness to it. What is his side of the story, do you know? This is fair. I was discussing the issue and the #metoo phenomenon generally and forgot there was a witness in OP's case. That should indeed swing the case in the accuser's favor. Perhaps he got played by two people, who knows? But maybe he really did the deed. The guy has cancer after all. Perhaps he decided to finally live a little and ended up breaking bad. 12 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: We talk about degrees of wrongness, but what about degrees of outrage. Men are more enraged by these false accusations than I have ever seen them enraged at the sheer magnitude of the number of women and children who get assaulted in this country. Sorry, but this is just a distraction. A red herring. Whataboutism. These are separate problems. You could justify attacking due process with any other crime that keeps occurring. You can insist holding any collective responsible for a few of it's members' crimes. Doesn't make either right. I trust you don't mean to suggest that as long as harassment of women happens a witch hunt is an acceptable response and random innocent men being made pay for it is a fair price, do you? I mean if that's what you truly think I can respect it to a degree, but I believe you can see how that's also letting outrage override justice, reason and moderation. 45 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: The best way men can help is to STOP FUCKING abusing women and children!! This is how the predatory men can help. Do you expect them to? Question is, how can innocent men help themselves from becoming collateral damage? I suppose we could set harsher punishments for harassment, but I trust you can see how that demands even higher standards of evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, TrueScotsman said: I am sorry for the situation, and none of us know the truth, but your suggestions are pretty conspiratorial. I suddenly remembered Jian Ghomeshi's recent case and how several women did actually conspire against him. When there are no repercussions for false accusations, perhaps the number of accusers and witnesses isn't worth much. If it costs you nothing to back a sister up in a false case, in hopes that she will pay back the favor, why not do it? I mean the opportune time for it is certainly right now. Ghomeshi's accusers' collusion was revealed and their fraudulent claims fell apart in front of e-mails and message logs Ghomeshi had fortunately saved from many years back. The judge, despite seemingly unwilling, was forced to dismiss the case. Hell, they are even changing the laws in Canada now to prevent such evidence working so well in the future*. The women faced no legal repercussions and were still applauded by the media afterwards for their bravery. Activists lamented the fact that letting the innocent man go makes it more difficult for victims to come forward. * Bill C-51 would require the defendant to provide the evidence they plan to use beforehand. This gives the opportunity for the prosecution to adjust their claims such that the evidence won't contradict them. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Quote No one should be locked up on accusation alone without a criminal trial, but if the nature of the accusation is aggressive then businesses have a liability to terminate that person unless immediate evidence is found to exonerate them, such as a witness or camera. Holy shit that is stupid, authoritarian and evil. I'm sure HR departments love it. This is a great example of why Americans need contracts with their employers and worker protections like the free, civilized world has. I'm honestly starting to believe that liberals are more dangerous than conservatives. Willing to ruin a person's life (and yes, being fired for something like this would ruin most lives, and the lives of their wives and children too) for a mere allegation. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Um, yeah, True Scotman I do concur with your comment. Fully. But, I do not appreciate you quoting me out of context and slandering me. I made it very clear, abundantly clear, that I was concerned only with the comments in this thread. I never once said not enough evidence for the women making claims in the #metoo movement. If you doubt my sincerity go back and read my past comments about this topic, the rape of my child, and the treatment of my daughter. There is evidence. The statistical evidence is huge, based on multiple experiences being recounted by multiple victims against a minor discrete subset of individual. It is this nonrandom pattern, combined with multiple individual witnesses to multiple discrete "encounters" that make it the accusations "facts". These people were harmed, and it is unreasonable to demand they destroy their careers and income just to be casted aside and not have anything change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToHellWithMe Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said: I'm a white male, and I have zero fear that this will happen to me. I always respect women, and I keep it nothing but professional and don't leave myself alone with any woman besides my wife. Sounds like your lack of fear is thanks to you being very careful. All in all, fair enough. I think I'm beginning to see where you are coming from and looks like our only difference might be that we assign different weights to the problematic aspects. Overall, I am glad that #metoo happened. Sucks for the unlucky and unwise, but it's good drama, brings women's victim mentality out in the open, and motivates men to become more flawless in dealing with it. The victims of false accusations can only blame their lack of foresight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, TrueScotsman said: You all have I think greatly over exaggerated the chances of this happening because of the national dialogue. I think the accusation shouldn't be treated neutral, and I don't think firms have the ability to properly conduct these investigations which should be handled by law enforcement. I know being falsely accused is scary, but it is less scary than being abused and not being believed. You are correct. Accusations should not be treated neutral. One should not be fired from their job on an allegation. An allegation should not be swept under the rug. The chances of something happening to an innocent guy is probably pretty small unless you're in Hollywood and as time goes on I think measures will naturally start falling into place to promote women's reporting of sex crimes while preventing liars wreaking havoc with innocent men's lives. Anecdote to follow: A young woman comes into the cop shop (with family) to file a rape report. After being grilled by a detective she broke down and admitted that she stayed out all night, hooked up with a guy then had to go home (lived with her parents still) and deal with her parents' old fashioned values. So she made up a rape story to save her ass from embarrassment and getting in trouble with her parents. True story. The detective saved me some paperwork. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 2 hours ago, TrueScotsman said: What people are wanting here is to increase the protection of the male, in fear of fake accusations. Which I think would only really end up protecting abusers because I don't imagine women as you do where they would risk their careers to create a lie in order to get you fired. I worked with mostly women for decades. Women scheme and connive just like men. But anyway, right now there's little risk for a woman to fake an accusation and get someone canned. Most rapes and assaults happen with no one around, there is no physical evidence available to corroborate the fact that I was ever raped, but I guess all the people who love evidence and totally discount witnesses are willing to let a few rapists off in order to save this fictional falsely accused white male. Evidence isn't always available, but there are rape protocols performed by medical personnel to check for DNA transfer (sperm). It is performed on both victim and suspect (if located). https://www.rainn.org/articles/rape-kit Of course the suspect's story will probably change to a 'consensual sex' account when hit with that evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts