#metoo

[duderonomy]

4 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

 

Many white liberals remind me of a woman like my mother.  They are hyper sensitive, easily offended, take themselves WAY TOO SERIOUSLY, and feel strongly about any offhand comment you might make in jest.  I love my mother, care about her, but I can only take her in small doses.  As for people like her, I have fun pushing their buttons.  I am a happy carmudgeon.  What is funny, I find many, even very intelligent people who get like that from time to time, even on here.  

 

So you are taking out your hatred and frustration you feel toward your mother by attacking people like her? 

 

Hmmm... Interesting...

[duderonomy]

1 hour ago, TrueScotsman said:

No one has yet to answer the question, what happens to the person who is accused of sexual misconduct by a single individual and is not reprimanded or terminated, then goes and abuses another woman?  What do you think those two women would do, in terms of litigation against the corporation?  

 

Well, if the person accused later actually assaults a woman, as in your scenario, there would be cause for action. But from the assault, not the prior accusation. 

Who knows what your fictional women would do. Hire Gloria Allred? Get bitten by radioactive spiders and become Spider Women Superheroes?    

There you go. At least you finally have an answer.

[duderonomy]

13 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

 

Naw....I am just that ornery kid at heart who used to irritate the hell out of my teachers in high school because I could. 

 

Did your teachers remind you of your mother?  

[duderonomy]

1 minute ago, Burnedout said:

 

Hey...I was doing what they WANTED to do...

 

Do you think that what you did to them was also what your mother wanted done to her?  

[Bhim]

34 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

But white conservatives are ok, right?

 

Sorry Bhim, just joking in order to thicken the soup.  

 

No problem, I prefer thick soup.

 

I've noticed that white conservatives tend not to indulge in self-loathing, and have some understanding that the fact that their great grandfather may have owned a slave (or whatever white people think they're guilty of) doesn't reflect badly on them. And a nice feature of white conservatives in 2018 is that not as many of them are Christians. You won't catch these guys avoiding women besides their wives out of some misplaced fear of impropriety!

[duderonomy]

41 minutes ago, Bhim said:

 

No problem, I prefer thick soup.

 

I've noticed that white conservatives tend not to indulge in self-loathing, and have some understanding that the fact that their great grandfather may have owned a slave (or whatever white people think they're guilty of) doesn't reflect badly on them. And a nice feature of white conservatives in 2018 is that not as many of them are Christians. You won't catch these guys avoiding women besides their wives out of some misplaced fear of impropriety!

 

I'm with Pence on this one. I don't avoid women out of some misplaced fear, but in most of my last jobs if I was interviewing a female or discussing their review or whatever I would leave the office door open.

Before I was in a  position of being "the boss" I also preferred the office door be left open when I was being interviewed or talking about anything if my boss was a female.  That was more than a decade ago. I suppose today I would want the door open no matter what, because things have become that toxic and sometimes silly.

 

I think the idea of a person that never "owned" a slave being hated by a person that never was a slave should be given a rest. 

 

Also, frankly I have to ask why you keep using the term "white conservatives". Are political conservatives with a different skin color different from the white ones?   

[duderonomy]

31 minutes ago, Burnedout said:

48 minutes ago, duderonomy said:

 

Do you think that what you did to them was also what your mother wanted done to her?  

 Don't care. 

 

When did you stop caring about your mother?  

[mymistake]

4 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

I've defended my alleged "mistakes," but you've inserted yourself as the unbiased arbiter in this extremely complex debate?  

 

 

Nope.  Just expressing my own opinion.  We had a decent conversation going on for a while there but now the whole thread has gone sideways.  I'm just not interested in the race thing or in whatever Bhim thinks he has over you or over liberalism.

 

 

4 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

I got ganged up on from every direction, and other people kept coming in and pouncing on something I said and too broadly applied it, such as the distinction of the court of law and within a firm.  

 

 

If time was a factor for you then that was unfortunate.  I look forward to having good discussions in the future.

 

 

4 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

 

We have data about the prevalence of it, which far surpasses what society previously considered to be the case.  Should that not entail a policy adjustment in order to protect women in the work place?  Besides some ambiguous "middle ground" which appealing to is just another fallacy, what other solutions are there that won't greatly protect potential predators within firms and universities given that most sexual assaults do not end in criminal conviction, nor even reporting to the authorities?  

 

 

Well for starters, asking people to consider more than just two alternatives is not a fallacy.  Considering a third option is not a commitment.  It's only consideration. 

 

When the debate started my opinion strongly matched midnightrider's.  Now I mildly favor assuming the accusations are true in the event that no objective evidence is available.  I would still go with the objective evidence should the event be caught on camera.  Eyewitnesses are notoriously subjective.

 

 

4 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

No one has yet to answer the question, what happens to the person who is accused of sexual misconduct by a single individual and is not reprimanded or terminated, then goes and abuses another woman?  

 

Based on what we have seen in the news during the last year predators tend to continue to prey on victims.

 

 

4 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

What do you think those two women would do, in terms of litigation against the corporation?  

 

 

Well that would depend on the local laws for their jurisdiction.  Some places are better than others.  However I would guess that in most states there isn't much the victims could do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

"When the debate started my opinion strongly matched midnightrider's.  Now I mildly favor assuming the accusations are true in the event that no objective evidence is available.  I would still go with the objective evidence should the event be caught on camera."

 

...

 

Whatever the evidence is, even if it's just a statement from the accuser and a statement from the accused, is better than nothing, imo. Whatever the boss decides to do regarding the situation is up to him/her. But I think the boss needs to CYA with whatever documentation they can get.  A business with a boss and 3 employees can still write down on paper what happened prior to terminating the offender. That's all I mean when I say investigation.  Something simple, written down.

 

[Thurisaz]

11 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

[...]

There's plenty of good data on the plight of women in the world, both suffer for sure, but this issue is far worse for females if you look at the data available which suggests very low estimates on actual reporting of incidents.

 

Good points in your entire posting, this up there is the only one I feel I should add anything

 

You refer to women "in the world". If we want to be fair, we need to be aware here that not all countries and places are treating women equally well (or bad, depending on how you approach it). Take certain Arab nations for example where it happens that a woman reports having been raped and then... gets punished for sex out of wedlock.

 

Holy fucking shit. Now that's a place that needs immediate action on all levels!

 

And I think with this I'll retreat from this thread. I'm sufficiently pissed by a FB thread where I'm getting called a callous evil misogynist without any empathy for pointing out that in dubio pro reo is a unversal foundation of any proper court system, and that there's a good reason for it, therefore exceptions are unacceptable... regardless of gender/age/religion/skin color/whathaveyou involved on either side.

[Bedouin]

Well, I asked for some feedback re: #metoo, and I've certainly received it. .  This has been a very lively debate and has been argued very thoroughly on many sides of the issue, and I applaud all that have offered very well thought out and meticulously documented, as far as possible, data.

 

But I need to ask that we rein this back in...seems that racism has crept it's way in.  My OP was written the way it was because I specifically did NOT want race to be a central issue, because, as a matter of fact, both the accuser and the accused are black.  Further, my friend was not in a position of "power."  He had no influence whatsoever on his accusers advancement or demotion or employment in general.

 

I also want to point out that the discussion has mainly been centered around "corporations."   I work for the US Federal Government, the Department of Veterans Affairs, which has a cabinet level appointee in the White House, Dr. David Shulkin.  Bottom line, we don't operate like the average company.  We can't even buy a stapler without 17 pieces of documentation ranging from the vendor to justification for the purchase to what account is used to payment, to who makes the request, to who approves the request to who approves the approval.

 

In other words, there are very specific policies that apply to just about any event,  EXCEPT THIS ONE.    When it comes to any type of sexually inappropriate behavior, there is zero tolerance.  You can be a drunk, and get sent to rehab.  You can steal, and get reprimanded, but not necessarily fired (it is very difficult to get summarily dismiss  a federal employee).  Taking any particular political viewpoint while on federal property in the performance of your duties can get you in seriously hot water, but again, not necessarily terminated.

 

Physical assault against a co-worker will result in suspension, regardless of "who started it,"  but you won't lose the job, unless it is a pattern.  Case in point:

 

There is a guy that was an NYPD cop, that got bounced, fired, from New York's Finest.  He applied and got a job as a Veterans Affairs police officer.  He assaulted a PATIENT at the hospital, and was relieved of his duties, and got transferred to another service within the hospital (warehouse).  HE WAS NOT TERMINATED, even though he physically attacked a patient, a VETERAN.

 

 

I must admit, however, that I omitted a salient fact from my OP.  My friend did get what we call a "fact finding."  This involves, usually, your immediate supervisor and requires that your union representative attend the inquiry.  In this instance, the fact finding was conducted by the medical center Director, the Assistant Director, the Chief of Staff, the Chief of HR, my friend and his union rep (but not, perhaps tellingly, his accuser).  My friend spoke up in his own defense, quite loudly and most likely didn't mince his words.  He is, after all, a Viet Nam Veteran AND being treated for cancer.  So, put yourself in those shoes.  4 years of service in a hell-hole of an undeclared war, and 15 years of service at the VA.

 

So, I just wanted to bring this discussion back in to focus a bit.

 

Again, I want to thank everyone for treating this topic with the seriousness that it warrants, and I look forward to reading your thoughts!

 

Peace.

 

 

[midniterider]

I must admit, however, that I omitted a salient fact from my OP.  My friend did get what we call a "fact finding."  This involves, usually, your immediate supervisor and requires that your union representative attend the inquiry.  In this instance, the fact finding was conducted by the medical center Director, the Assistant Director, the Chief of Staff, the Chief of HR, my friend and his union rep.  My friend spoke up in his own defense, quite loudly and most likely didn't mince his words.  He is, after all, a Viet Nam Veteran AND being treated for cancer.  So, put yourself in those shoes.  4 years of service in a hell-hole of an undeclared war, and 15 years of service at the VA.

 

.....

 

Well, at least some supervisors looked into the matter. So what evidence was presented against him?

[Bedouin]

6 minutes ago, midniterider said:

I must admit, however, that I omitted a salient fact from my OP.  My friend did get what we call a "fact finding."  This involves, usually, your immediate supervisor and requires that your union representative attend the inquiry.  In this instance, the fact finding was conducted by the medical center Director, the Assistant Director, the Chief of Staff, the Chief of HR, my friend and his union rep.  My friend spoke up in his own defense, quite loudly and most likely didn't mince his words.  He is, after all, a Viet Nam Veteran AND being treated for cancer.  So, put yourself in those shoes.  4 years of service in a hell-hole of an undeclared war, and 15 years of service at the VA.

 

.....

 

Well, at least some supervisors looked into the matter. So what evidence was presented against him?

 

I wasn't there, so I can't answer that question.  There are no cameras where this alleged incident happened so that's out.  This wasn't a rape, so bodily fluids couldn't have been an issue.  Thus, as far as I know, it was the mere allegation that was the "evidence."  Like I said, he most likely didn't do himself any favors by vociferously calling them out for the cowards that they are.

[Guest]

Are there any women weighing in here? Has anyone interviewed the women in their lives about this issue, especially women over 40? My very first job at 16 yrs old, I was molested by the manager and harassed endlessly, along with all the other young ladies who were hired. My second job as a teenager, I worked as a hotel maid. The manager was female, but the guests who were regularly drunk or high (this was a hotel on the beach) were out of control. One even tried to lock me in his room. Then in college I had a prof who, with the cooperation of his male TAs, tried to get me to come to house for a "sleepover." Then when I became a health care professional, I cant even count the number of times I was harassed. And I'm only talking about workplace issues. I wont even get into what happened to me with uncles, "friends," and strangers who made me feel fearful for my safety (starting at a very young age), let alone my employment. I'm not talking about flirty remarks or the occasional cheeky comment made in fun. This is coming from an extremely average female who was taught to dress modestly and act "ladylike" bc that's what God wanted and bc God made boys to be visually  stimulated (coming from a fundamentalist mom). My point here is that many women, have had to learn to walk on eggs around men, to avoid unwanted sexual advances without incurring some sort of penalty for doing so. So I can't say I feel sorry that men are now having to learn to navigate carefully around women so as not to be unfairly accused of something inappropriate. I'm sorry if the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction and I hope it levels out.  But as someone previously mentioned, it would have been nice if men would have been just as outraged about the sexual abuse that women had to put up with for hundreds of years, as they are about the alleged abuses of the #metoo movement in the past few months.

[mymistake]

I'm sorry to hear that Faithfulless, nobody should have to go through that.

[midniterider]

4 minutes ago, Faithfulless said:

Are there any women weighing in here? Has anyone interviewed the women in their lives about this issue, especially women over 40? My very first job at 16 yrs old, I was molested by the manager and harassed endlessly, along with all the other young ladies who were hired. My second job as a teenager, I worked as a hotel maid. The manager was female, but the guests who were regularly drunk or high (this was a hotel on the beach) were out of control. One even tried to lock me in his room. Then in college I had a prof who, with the cooperation of his male TAs, tried to get me to come to house for a "sleepover." Then when I became a health care professional, I cant even count the number of times I was harassed. And I'm only talking about workplace issues. I wont even get into what happened to me with uncles, "friends," and strangers who made me feel fearful for my safety (starting at a very young age), let alone my employment. I'm not talking about flirty remarks or the occasional cheeky comment made in fun. This is coming from an extremely average female who was taught to dress modestly and act "ladylike" bc that's what God wanted and bc God made boys to be visually  stimulated (coming from a fundamentalist mom). My point here is that many women, have had to learn to walk on eggs around men, to avoid unwanted sexual advances without incurring some sort of penalty for doing so. So I can't say I feel sorry that men are now having to learn to navigate carefully around women so as not to be unfairly accused of something inappropriate. I'm sorry if the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction and I hope it levels out.  But as someone previously mentioned, it would have been nice if men would have been just as outraged about the sexual abuse that women had to put up with for hundreds of years, as they are about the alleged abuses of the #metoo movement in the past few months.

 

I am sorry that you have had to deal with that crap your whole life. It's not fair and the abuser(s) needs to have their ass(es) kicked.

 

After a while a problem that is constantly building will eventually explode. Sounds like #metoo is the explosion. Sometimes change has to occur by revolution if it won't change incrementally. I hope a lot of good helpful ideas sprout from the #metoo movement that help both women and men co-exist.

 

 

 

 

[ToHellWithMe]

38 minutes ago, Faithfulless said:

So I can't say I feel sorry that men are now having to learn to navigate carefully around women so as not to be unfairly accused of something inappropriate

 

You can even be gleeful about it for all I care. That's not a problem. Finding an agreeable arrangement is.

 

For me to act to better the treatment of women, it has to coincide with my interests.

I mean I'm all for hanging rapists and cutting off lesser offenders' balls etc, just like any other man is. Just name your demands, harshness won't be an issue. The more uncivilized idiots we put down, the better the world will be. What I will need is to be able to protect my own innocent ass. I need women to realize that much if they want my cooperation. The more bloodlust you have, the higher standards of evidence need to be and the clearer the boundaries of what is proper so I can avoid overstepping them in my own game.

[ToHellWithMe]

1 minute ago, TrueScotsman said:

This is an irrational fear given how rare false accusations are.  That's like having your mind constantly worry about being struck by lightening on a sunny day.  Respect women, be yourself, and don't assault anyone and you should be fine.

 

We do not share that rosy view of people. Many women will accuse innocent men of rape to protect their own reputation when the women themselves have been faithless. Some women will even threaten a taxi driver with a false allegation to avoid paying the fare.

[Orbit]

16 minutes ago, ToHellWithMe said:

 

We do not share that rosy view of people. Many women will accuse innocent men of rape to protect their own reputation when the women themselves have been faithless. Some women will even threaten a taxi driver with a false allegation to avoid paying the fare.

 

This is the fallacy of dramatic instance.

[ToHellWithMe]

5 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

I understand the massive number of people being assaulted in just this country alone is only a fraction of the reality while people stay silent

Oh I'm with you on this. What has come to light is just the tip of the iceberg. I've seen the sleazy, slightly gropy advances women have to suffer within my own groups of friends. To my puzzlement they seem to put up with the lack of respect to quite an extent, while if it were me being treated like that I would put a quick, harsh stop to it. With some backbone they could frighten those sleazy men and somewhat tarnish their rep while gaining respect themselves. Yet they won't do that.

[ToHellWithMe]

13 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

women have to have a shit ton of backbone just to put up with the bullshit laid on them from abusive men and still get up and stand in the morning

I'd have to see the situation to agree. Usually "it's for our kids" is just something they tell themselves in order to excuse their lack of backbone. Would probably set a better example for the children to walk away from abuse. Show the kids they don't need to tolerate stuff like that or sacrifice their wellbeing for others.

 

13 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

 They need our support, not our judgment.  

They can probably use both. Consider the above scenario. Judge the abused wives for lack of backbone but also provide shelter or something so they can leave when they need to. If their lack of action is not a failure, neither is facing the fears and taking action any accomplishment.

[ToHellWithMe]

1 minute ago, TrueScotsman said:

Human beings are just trying to survive in this world, don't you get it, your moralizations are just simplified abstractions of what it is really like.  LISTEN TO THEM, and stop judging.  

 

Well, yeah. Sometimes I should do that, too. Maybe even show sympathy if it's a situation where I can afford to.

But in the end, judgemental attitude is the way to confidence, earning respect and getting out of abuse, so they better adopt it. Seeing an example might serve them, too.

In some things there can be no fucking excuses. Only harsh judgement.

[ToHellWithMe]

1 minute ago, TrueScotsman said:

Why are you not heaping shame and judgment on Faithfulness for walking on eggshells to get by it.

 

I can sympathize with that partially and that wasn't what I felt like tackling first when I read the post. Sure, now that you mention it and I think about it more I feel disgust. Don't fucking degrade yourself unless it's essential to your physical safety or something. If you want respect you're going to have to draw lines and be confrontational. If there are people around you have witnesses and you don't really have to fear physical abuse. A damsel in violent distress is a fine excuse to fuck the obviously offending dude up. Hell, everyone would jump on the opportunity. Humiliate him so badly he can only cry in frustration like a baby and lose all self-respect. Just imagining it brings me satisfaction. I'd be even seen as a hero.

 

13 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

Faithfulness also pointed out how she could have career repercussions for her response, which is a sentiment and REALITY that has been attested to by many of the women speaking up during this movement.

Hah! Even more reason not to cry #metoo but to solve the problem with your own ability. Like a man would have to. Being a public tattletale is a career suicide. A woman with victim mentality is a liability to any company. Not gonna get hired again.

A man might get fired too if his bully is his boss or something and he refuses to take shit from him. That's just his bad luck then. But he could have good luck and gain his respect. It's a gamble he should take.

[duderonomy]

19 hours ago, Burnedout said:

 

You better be careful.  Fwee might think you're abandoning him for me, now you KNOW that would not be pretty.

 

Fwee would be upset, that's true. But still, are you changing the subject because you don't want to talk about your mother? 

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

1 minute ago, duderonomy said:

 

Fwee would be upset, that's true. But still, are you changing the subject because you don't want to talk about your mother? 

 

 

Could be mummy issues?