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Yeah so much for "Russia-Gate"...


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...abominable as Trump is, the claims about Evil Vladimir(TM) having manipulated him into office are worth as much as da wholly babble or da horror-ran.

 

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/01/11/the-fbi-hand-behind-russia-gate/

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Media, and most of our sane population, never dreamed we had so many racists, misogynists, xenophobes and scapegoat loving paranoid underachievers. After all, one doesn't need any media spin at all to see that Trump represents the worst qualities of human nature. He has a long history of cheating contractors, investors, students and even wives. He played the Democrat when it suited him and you can fact check more lies from him than anyone in history. He is not trusted by anyone close to him. He demands loyalty and offers none.

 

So yeah, most people can't believe such a pariah found so much support in America, oozing out from under their pointed hoods and double wides. Of course it's no surprise the wealthy would back any Republican regime, even a Trump, but the support he gets from his victims is the surprise.

 

Of course Russia wants to influence our politics just as we meddle in everyone else's business around the world. Trump is clearly and publicly trying to interfere with any investigation by trashing/firing everyone in his own justice department. He must be hiding something game changing, probably shady money laundering and such if not outright Russian collusion. So many who have dealt with Trump have said he's a self serving con man and there is no evidence that they are wrong.

 

 

 

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Your logic is bad on this Florduh. 

 

Yes, Trump sucks, but obfuscating and ducking the legal system has zero correlation with guilt or innocence. The investigation has been weaponized and any reasonable person would duck it as best they could. Have you already forgotten how Clinton was impeached, not because of Whitewater, but because he lied about a blow job? 

 

I put it to you that the investigation is far, far, far more dangerous than Trump and more damaging too. 

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If they really want to get Trump for collusion, they would go after him on Israel. It would be a slam dunk, easy peasy case. They wouldn't have to make up a thing. But they won't for many reasons, including the fact it would indict the investigators, the last 10 presidents and would piss off AIPAC. 

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Heck, if McResistance is serious, why don't they go after him on illegal occupation of Syria? War of aggression is the highest crime in the world. The penalty is death, as many Nazi leaders learned in Nuremberg. If this doesn't clear up the fact that this investigation has nothing whatsoever to do with justice and is merely a witch hunt, then you're a victim of the misinfo campaign being played against you. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Vigile said:

Your logic is bad on this Florduh. 

I think you must mean, "I disagree with you." :D

 

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3 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

Vigile's logic never takes into account that Russia might be purposefully trying to manipulate their opinions either.  When one understands recent history with Russia and with the left in Europe, this thread makes perfect sense.  Which is sad to me, because it is delegitimizing movements like DiEM 2025 and Syriza who seem like the only alternatives to the nationalist and neo-liberal agenda, but are often propped up by support from Putin.

I try my best to recognize and discount propaganda from all sides. There are no good guys on the international stage. There are no altruistic servants of the citizens. There is nothing but a very large and expanding gray area.

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20 minutes ago, TrueScotsman said:

Kleptocrats prefer it that way, helps them not be held accountable.

I hold them all accountable.

 

Day to day facts are more and more elusive to discern. All we can know for sure is that at any given time one or more people are lying to us.

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2 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

Which is why people need to know the big picture before they can make sense of the day to day facts.  Oftentimes people substitute their conspiracy theories for the big picture and all kinds of nonsense spews out.  Everyone is self-interested and inclined to lie, but there are degrees of corruption.  

 

 

Let's not forget that believing conspiracy theories is super fun.  Facts are boring and require hard work to find.

 

 

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Did you ever hear the one about how Putin is a nice guy who minds his own business but the Americans are impurifying our precious bodily fluids with chemtrails?

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TS you should check out what Putin said over the years in his speeches, including in front of international councils of one kind or another. You'll be amazed how many good points and such you'll hear.

 

So, friend, my point still stands... either you say that he's lying, which is certainly possible but is a risk with everyone, so then you should equally attack all other politicians no matter where they come from or what they (claim they?) stand for.

 

Ooooooor... you'll have to admit that this supposed warmonger... doesn't sound like a warmonger at all. :scratch:

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13 hours ago, Vigile said:

Heck, if McResistance is serious, why don't they go after him on illegal occupation of Syria? War of aggression is the highest crime in the world. The penalty is death, as many Nazi leaders learned in Nuremberg. 

 

 

So the USA is trying to turn Syria into a US territory?  By any chance was the annexation of Crimea done in self defense?

 

13 hours ago, Vigile said:

  If this doesn't clear up the fact that this investigation has nothing whatsoever to do with justice and is merely a witch hunt, then you're a victim of the misinfo campaign being played against you. 

 

Non sequitur.  You have not established that your opinion is fact.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Thurisaz said:

 Ooooooor... you'll have to admit that this supposed warmonger... doesn't sound like a warmonger at all. :scratch:

 

 

Is that how we judge a leader's record?  By how they sound or by what they do?

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10 hours ago, florduh said:

I think you must mean, "I disagree with you." :D

 

 

Nope, I mean your logic is flawed. :shrug: 

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1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

 

So the USA is trying to turn Syria into a US territory?  By any chance was the annexation of Crimea done in self defense?

 

 

Non sequitur.  You have not established that your opinion is fact.

 

 

 

Russia didn't annex, Crimea actually voted. There were impartial observers from 13 different countries ensuring the vote was fair and they voted in favor by over 90%. Isn't this exactly what the United States is always in favor of, free association by people using their democratic voice? That's what they argued when they spent $5B foisting a coup on Ukraine's democratically elected leadership while the last Olympics were on tv. Syria doesn't want the US there and the US is there by force. Big, big difference. If you can't see that, this convo will go nowhere. 

No non sequitur. On one hand we have an open, year long investigation of which there has thus far been zero evidence presented. Meanwhile, we have a crime being committed openly, blatantly for all the world to see of which there is irrefutable evidence that is being completely ignored. None of this is my opinion, this is objectively observable fact. How can one conclude anything other than political motivation here? 

It's like allowing a guy to rob a bank on live television over and over and letting him get away with it and even pretending it's not happening while holding an open investigation on the same guy for sexual harassment for which there are lots of accusations, 100% of them leveled by his political opposition, but no proof. It's so far out there into La La land that no casual observer can watch it all without dropping their jaw in awe of it all. 

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1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Is that how we judge a leader's record?  By how they sound or by what they do?

 

What's he done MM? 

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19 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

 If you can't see that, this convo will go nowhere. 
 

 

I just go by what happens in the real world.  Putin had a war of aggression so by your line of reasoning he should be executed, no?  

 

 

19 minutes ago, Vigile said:


No non sequitur. On one hand we have an open, year long investigation of which there has thus far been zero evidence presented.  

 

Oh, so Robert Muller invites you into his meetings every week and they just sit around moaning about having nothing to do?  It's an ongoing investigation; as in early stage.   Maybe it doesn't make the news over there but so far they have indicted two cronies and have flipped two more as witnesses.  2 + 2 =/= 0  

 

I know Trump keeps saying he didn't do anything but if we let everybody who says that go all the prisons would be empty.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

 Meanwhile, we have a crime being committed openly, blatantly for all the world to see of which there is irrefutable evidence that is being completely ignored.  

 

You mean the dictator of Syria trying to exterminate his own people or Putin trying to assist?  Or is trying to prevent genocide now a crime?  It's so confusing.

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

What's he done MM? 

 

 

Ukraine from 2014 to the present.  Perhaps Russian television depicts it as a rescue and the Ukrainians asked for it. 

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24 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Ukraine from 2014 to the present.  Perhaps Russian television depicts it as a rescue and the Ukrainians asked for it. 

 

You are very misinformed about Ukraine. The US fomented a coup there, then picked the government for them. Since then, the citizens of the region of Donbass decided they wanted nothing to do with the newly formed government and so Kiev, with the help of the US, has been bombing the hell out of them. What does Russia have to do with any of this? 

There's a Ukrainian joke that goes: Why are we bombing Donbass? The Russians are there. Why aren't we bombing Crimea? Because the Russians are REALLY there. 

 

Here's US rep Victoria Nuland on the phone choosing the Ukrainian government. How is this Putin's doing?
 

 

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4 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

I just go by what happens in the real world.  Putin had a war of aggression so by your line of reasoning he should be executed, no?  

 

What war of aggression? You mention below Ukraine, but Putin literally has not fought any wars in Ukraine. If you think he has, you are misinformed.

 

Oh, so Robert Muller invites you into his meetings every week and they just sit around moaning about having nothing to do?  It's an ongoing investigation; as in early stage.   Maybe it doesn't make the news over there but so far they have indicted two cronies and have flipped two more as witnesses.  2 + 2 =/= 0  

IOW, I should just shut up and believe because those in authority got this thing, right? No evidence has been presented. Sorry, I don't have faith that these guys are doing the right thing. Either they put up or I don't believe them. I do see plenty of evidence of real crimes though that they are ignoring. You mentioned what happens in the real world. That's exactly it. In the real world, our government plays political games, lies like hell and ignores real crime. 

Let's try this. If you believe there was collusion, explain it. What is it that happened? Give me some details, such as "voting machines were hacked". I don't mean send me a link to a Rachel Maddow mystery map that insinuates nefarious meetings with Russian diplomats, etc..., I mean tell me in your own words what Russia did. What the Trump team did. And bonus points if you can name a law that was broken.  Double bonus points if you can show me something Russia did that Israel, Saudi, etc... didn't do 1000x more.  

 

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I know Trump keeps saying he didn't do anything but if we let everybody who says that go all the prisons would be empty.

 

Trump is a war criminal, but again, no one is going after him for that. We do have standards, supposedly though, and that's innocent until PROVEN guilty. That means we require proof. It's crazy to believe there is something there just because they tell you it's so. Can't believe I have to even write that. But these are the times we live in. 

 

You mean the dictator of Syria trying to exterminate his own people or Putin trying to assist?  Or is trying to prevent genocide now a crime?  It's so confusing.

 

Again, no evidence. And since when is genocide prevented by dropping bombs and killing hundreds of thousands and starving many more? I suppose you fell for the same bogus load when they sold the destruction of Libya too, turning the most successful and wealthy African country into a den of slavery and terrorism it is today. C'mon man, think! Moreover, it doesn't even make sense. Assad had everything to lose and nothing to gain by gassing his people. The terrorist orgs had everything to gain and nothing to lose. The Russians have demanded an investigation over the gas attacks and the US has fought them every step of the way. Why is that? So, all we have are claims that don't make sense. Why do you believe them? In the real world, which you seem to appeal to here, people lie and the only tool we plebes have is evidence. When the government refuses to even investigate and provide it, it's utterly crazy to just take them at their word. And what has Russia done? Only helped Assad get rid of ISIS which the US and Israel sicked on him in the first place. Wow. I can't believe how little Americans know about what's going on in the ME today. It's crazy they don't even know that their own country is the one behind all of this and then blame the victims. The projection is astounding. 


It may surprise you to learn that the US not only bombs, drones and pillages the world, it also lies like a mother fucker and is the number one supporter of terrorism in the world (but if you ask them, they'd say that title belongs to Iran -- but again, they don't support the claim, they just make it baldly). 

 

 

I don't expect you to take my word for any of this. Here's a Canadian journalist, who, unlike CNN, Fox, ABC, etc..., actually speaks Arabic and actually went to Syria and reported on it first hand (yes, western MSM didn't actually go there. They used stringers who make their living selling, so they sell what the MSM wants to buy):
 

 

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Okay let's talk about what Putin does.

 

What Evil Things does he do that western politicians don't do as well (albeit often a bit more well-hidden)?

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7 minutes ago, Thurisaz said:

Okay let's talk about what Putin does.

 

What Evil Things does he do that western politicians don't do as well (albeit often a bit more well-hidden)?

That sounds like a Republican argument, "Yeah we did this awful thing but look over there at what the Dems did!"

 

We can't find any good guys, we can only try to figure out who is worse at any given juncture.

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"We can't trust the media! It's all propaganda, spin, and manipulation! Here are media sources that agree with me that prove I'm right..."

 

 

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8 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

Let's try this. If you believe there was collusion, explain it. What is it that happened?

 

 

Trump had his inner circle meet with Russian agents.  Hours later Trump starts using new, stolen information in his public statements.  Then he used live television to communicate to Russia what he would like them to steal next.  Once Trump becomes President the one nation he can never criticize or act against is Russia.  Just yesterday US law required Trump to impose new sanctions against Russia and of course he never will. 

 

Oh and what other US president ever invited the Russian ambassador and Russian foreign minister into the Oval Office and handecd them classified information?  If anybody else did that they would be called a traitor and spy but when God/Emperor does it people scratch their heads and say "but he has the power" or "but the people made their choice".

 

 

7 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

 

. . . such as "voting machines were hacked"

 

 

That isn't how modern election hackers operate.  This is the 21st century.  Big data (gathered from internet companies such as Google and Facebook) is used to identify people who are prone to conspiracy theories.  Then those targets are fed propaganda that fits their favorite narrative.  This changes the way they vote or even their choice on whether to vote at all.

 

 

7 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

 

Trump is a war criminal, but again, no one is going after him for that. 

 

 

 

This is one topic where I would be very open minded.  Please expand. The more details the better.  If you are right, then I could never hear enough about it.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

That sounds like a Republican argument, "Yeah we did this awful thing but look over there at what the Dems did!"

 

We can't find any good guys, we can only try to figure out who is worse at any given juncture.

 

Oh I'm not claiming that Vlad is an angel.

 

But I'm not seeing him doing anything that western politicians aren't also doing, so if he's evil for doing it, aren't the western ones just as evil? And if so, why aren't people bashing them all?

 

And if we're looking at speeches and such, sorry, I've seen/heard Putin say things that every sane politician should say... but none does. Well okay a few do, but none in the "western mainstream".

 

(EDIT)

 

You know who would have reason and justification to say "Vlad, you're a very bad boy!"? The UN.

 

But can't have that, can we? Who knows, the UN might just point at, say, Trump just after that (okay not too many would mind that I admit :P ), or Merkel the bankster whore, or May, or... or... and that would be damn inconvenient wouldn't it?

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