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Yeah so much for "Russia-Gate"...


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3 minutes ago, Thurisaz said:

 

But I'm not seeing him doing anything that western politicians aren't also doing, so if he's evil for doing it, aren't the western ones just as evil? And if so, why aren't people bashing them all?

All do get bashed, but by different people. Propaganda from all sides is sophisticated and powerful. Most people assume they must choose one over the other. The only divide I see anymore is the powerful versus the powerless.

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34 minutes ago, Thurisaz said:

 

Oh I'm not claiming that Vlad is an angel.

 

But I'm not seeing him doing anything that western politicians aren't also doing, so if he's evil for doing it, aren't the western ones just as evil? And if so, why aren't people bashing them all?

 

And if we're looking at speeches and such, sorry, I've seen/heard Putin say things that every sane politician should say... but none does. Well okay a few do, but none in the "western mainstream".

 

You know, this is pretty close to my argument regarding Putin.

 

People do bash them all, frequently in fact. That doesn't fit the anti-American narrative well enough though so it gets brushed aside.

 

In fact, I've not seen any evidence that anyone here has painted him as particularly worse or more evil than other world leaders, and does just as much bad shit. He's not altruistic or looking out for the rest of the world, but rather his own interest, and to a lesser degree Russia's interests. That doesn't make him the next Hitler or Stalin, but it also doesn't mean it's great for the rest of the world either. I don't really trust him any more than I trust any other politician, but also not really any less. Not everything he does is bad, and I don't suspect that he's trying to take over the US, just manipulate and weaken it, because that's good for Russian interests.

 

I slightly suspect that Vigile is one of those Russian government sponsored internet and social media manipulators that aren't supposed to exist according to him. He's a bit too pro-Russia and his posts get defensive and try to deflect any criticism of the country by using the very tactic Florduh is pointing out. He also likes to use red herrings and cherry pick the worst examples of crazy alarmist conspiracy and propaganda duped morons and present it as a bigger factor and more common opinion than it really is.

 

Also, yeah, this site actually is popular enough to warrant that kind of attention. It's not Reddit, but even though traffic this place sees isn't amazingly high [1,300-1,400 a day], the rate at which visitors are engaged is pretty high, this place has a stupidly high bounce rate for a site this size.

 

I'd trust him to recommend nice places to eat and maybe some of the good places for tourists to visit near to where he lives, but I have no trust in anything he says regarding Russia in relation to global politics at all to be honest. He's either working for them or completely blind to the fact that he's falling for the exact same type of propaganda he's accusing everyone else of being under the influence of. Note that I'm saying that this propaganda does exist, but also that I see no reason to think Russia is any better about that kind of information manipulation than the US or EU is.

 

My stance is that, yes, the US does bad stuff all over the world, but also good stuff. They are also self interested and generally act to further that. Just like most other world powers, including Russia.

 

 

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1 hour ago, mymistake said:

Hours later Trump starts using new, stolen information in his public statements. 

 

You mean info from the wikileaks dump (Hillary and co emails)? What info specifically are you referring here?

 

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

Once Trump becomes President the one nation he can never criticize or act against is Russia.

 

I wish, but unfortunately, that's just not true. Russia would dearly love the US to leave Syria, but they dug in their heels with 15 illegal bases. Before that, Trump ordered a cruise missile attack on not just Syria, but on the airport where there was Russian troops. He did it while enjoying a piece of chocolate cake, which he mentioned to show just how little of a shit he gave about ordering a bombing attack on a country without provocation or UN mandate. 

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

Just yesterday US law required Trump to impose new sanctions against Russia and of course he never will. 

 

Can you provide details because as I understand it, sanctions come from congress and not POTUS. Congress has already imposed sanctions. 

But let's talk about sanctions. Why does Russia deserve to be sanctioned? Do you realize that sanctions are acts of war? Why isn't Israel sanctioned for apartheid and for stealing land against UN mandates? Why isn't Saudi Arabia sanctioned for virtual genocide in Yemen as we speak? Are you really sure you want to argue that Russia is getting special favors here? 

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

Oh and what other US president ever invited the Russian ambassador and Russian foreign minister into the Oval Office and handecd them classified information?

 

I guess you're referring to saving St. Petersburg from a terror attack, something Russia has done for the US many times before the favor was returned. Yeah, that's a real stickler. 

 

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

Then those targets are fed propaganda that fits their favorite narrative.

 

So, you mean modern day lobby efforts that are not only perfectly legal, but undertaken by Israel, Saudi Arabia, China, Indonesia, India... But hey, Facebook found 100 accounts that might, maybe be tied to Russia. Hell, I might be one of them. I have a Russian IP and I discuss what FB considers "fake" news all the time. 

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

This is one topic where I would be very open minded.  Please expand. The more details the better.  If you are right, then I could never hear enough about it.  

 

As mentioned, he has 15 completely illegal bases in Syria. There is no UN mandate, so it breaks international law 6 ways to Sunday. He has ordered cruise missile attacks as well as bombing runs on the country. He also supports Saudi Arabia in its 100% illegal war against Yemen where they are cutting off trade routes starving them to death. There is massive famine in large areas of Yemen and the US (Trump) is providing cover and selling them weapons. This is just the tip of the iceberg. 

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2 hours ago, florduh said:

That sounds like a Republican argument, "Yeah we did this awful thing but look over there at what the Dems did!"

 

We can't find any good guys, we can only try to figure out who is worse at any given juncture.

 

But it's not because Putin actually doesn't do the same evil things the western governments are doing. He's merely accused of doing these things. You'll find, if you do even a small amount of digging, that the accusations are completely empty. I'm sure he's no saint, but he is one politician I don't mind defending. The guy has done tremendous things for this country over his time in office. The average Russian has seen his/her standard of living improve hundreds of percent, they've seen police corruption cleaned up, they've seen massive government reforms, they've seen national security beefed up again (and note that it has been defense systems, not offense systems primarily). There is still room for improvement, but most countries can only dream of a leader like he has been for the Russian people. 

 

Russians are well educated, well read and very aware as a people and they have consistently given him 80 to 90% approval ratings. This isn't because they are duped. 

 

What approval rating did FDR have? Keep in mind that Russians have virtually everything that FDR gave the Americans, plus free healthcare and they have these things on the backdrop of a depression far worse than the US great depression during the 1990s and despite massive amounts of western sanctions. 

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1 hour ago, Vigile said:

 

Keep in mind that Russians have virtually everything that FDR gave the Americans . . .

 

You might want to rethink that comparison.  FDR put Americans in concentration camps.

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1 hour ago, Vigile said:


But let's talk about sanctions. Why does Russia deserve to be sanctioned?  

 

Uh, no.  Let's not change the subject.  You wanted to know how T and P are working together.  I've shown you how.

  

 

"What info specifically are you referring here?"

 

The political ammunition Trump used against Clinton during the election.

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On 1/30/2018 at 8:07 PM, mymistake said:

 

You might want to rethink that comparison.  FDR put Americans in concentration camps.

 

I think it was pretty clear I was speaking of social services here.  There are no concentration camps here. In fact, it's the Us that is imprisoning and otherwise abusing its population at this time. It has by far the most prisoners. 

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On 1/30/2018 at 8:15 PM, mymistake said:

 

Uh, no.  Let's not change the subject.  You wanted to know how T and P are working together.  I've shown you how.

  

 

"What info specifically are you referring here?"

 

The political ammunition Trump used against Clinton during the election.

 

No, you told me what you think. That's not showing how. Showing would require actual proof. The sanctions are very much tied to that so it's fair to ask why Russia is being sanctioned when there hasn't even been a legal decree that they did anything wrong, just bald accusations. If your eyes were open here you'd see that the sanctions have nothing whatsoever to do with anything Russia did and everything to do with the US doing everything it can to hinder and block a potential economic and military threat to its global dominance. We're adults here. Let's be honest and stop letting the PR people tell us fairy tales. 

 

The ammunition you refer to came from wikileaks. It has been shown with 100% proof that it came directly from the DNC server, not from Russian hackers. And let's not brush over the fact that this "ammunition" was all 100% true. Not very helpful for the HRC side of this story. 

 

 

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There is something going on with Trump and Russia. It's really hard to miss.

 

Secret meetings discovered, secret payments discovered, lie after lie exposed, guilty plea deals made, financial ties uncovered, Trump's version of a protracted Saturday Night Massacre, Trump defying an almost unanimous Congress regarding sanctions, and now we find out the administration has secretly sneaked in a couple of Russia's top spies to meet with Trump's top spies. Secrets, lies, babbling denials and plea deals (confessions) make for a lot of smoke if there is no fire.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, florduh said:

There is something going on with Trump and Russia. It's really hard to miss.

 

Secret meetings discovered, secret payments discovered, lie after lie exposed, guilty plea deals made, financial ties uncovered, Trump's version of a protracted Saturday Night Massacre, Trump defying an almost unanimous Congress regarding sanctions, and now we find out the administration has secretly sneaked in a couple of Russia's top spies to meet with Trump's top spies. Secrets, lies, babbling denials and plea deals (confessions) make for a lot of smoke if there is no fire.

 

 

 

 

Evidence, for any of this? Remember, claims, even if from (especially if from) intel agencies, and anon sources are not evidence. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Vigile said:

 

Evidence, for any of this? Remember, claims, even if from (especially if from) intel agencies, and anon sources are not evidence. 

 

You've seen the evidence, it's been posted in hundreds of threads here. You just don't accept it.

 

Shit like this is why I sometimes seriously wonder if you're literally working for the Russian government when you post sometimes.

 

Of course Russia is working to destabilize and discredit the US and will stick their fingers in whatever pies they can get them into, that's good for their interests. It would be weird if they weren't doing that. The US does the same thing, as does any other world power.

 

None of them can be trusted, including Russia and Putin. If they weren't trying to do things like that to gain an advantage for their state, then they aren't doing their jobs.

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28 minutes ago, Vigile said:

Evidence, for any of this? Remember, claims, even if from (especially if from) intel agencies, and anon sources are not evidence. 

I and others have presented evidence that indicates there is some sort of Russia connection that Trump desperately wants to hide at any cost. I have not relied on claims, well founded or otherwise, from any person or agency. Just what is actually happening before our eyes. I have not presented a legal case but have shown that by what has actually occurred indicates there is indeed a problem worth looking into. 

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6 minutes ago, florduh said:

I and others have presented evidence that indicates there is some sort of Russia connection that Trump desperately wants to hide at any cost. I have not relied on claims, well founded or otherwise, from any person or agency. Just what is actually happening before our eyes. I have not presented a legal case but have shown that by what has actually occurred indicates there is indeed a problem worth looking into. 

 

So, no then. 

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22 minutes ago, Vigile said:

 

So, no then. 

I am not a lawyer, prosecutor or investigator. I only see what I see. It's just common sense that anyone who goes to extreme lengths to obstruct an investigation launched because of things witnessed by everyone has something to hide from such an investigation. It's fucking Nixon all over again.

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1 hour ago, florduh said:

I am not a lawyer, prosecutor or investigator. I only see what I see. It's just common sense that anyone who goes to extreme lengths to obstruct an investigation launched because of things witnessed by everyone has something to hide from such an investigation. It's fucking Nixon all over again.

 

I'd also point out that an actual connection is largely irrelevant in regard to obstruction.

 

The obstruction itself is a crime, regardless of the truth behind the allegations one way or another.

 

If he's guilty of obstruction, it doesn't matter at all if he was doing it just to be a defensive asshole despite having nothing to hide, to hide an actual connection, or if he's trying to hide something completely different.

 

Let's say Vigile and BO are correct just for the sake of argument and there is no man behind the curtain here. That doesn't get Trump off the hook for an obstruction charge. The current investigation still has merit even if the only wrongdoing is obstruction, it's still a crime, and one that has brought down a president in the past at that.

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6 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

No, you told me what you think. That's not showing how. Showing would require actual proof.  

 

 

 

You think that most of the world is part of a conspiracy to fake a war during a time of peace.  There is nothing I can say that is going to change your mind.  

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7 hours ago, Vigile said:

 

 There are no concentration camps here. In fact, it's the Us that is imprisoning and otherwise abusing its population at this time. It has by far the most prisoners. 

 

That was't my point.  You are not thinking it all the way through when you invent stuff.  I've been watching Trump closely for two years.  Yet what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears is not real?  The timeline that is objective and public is not evidence?  Trump's interviews are objective and public but also not evidence?  Trump's speeches are objective and public but also not evidence?  Trump's tweets are objective and public but also not evidence?  Trump's comments to reporters are objective and public but also not evidence?

 

But you making stuff up is evidence.  FDR did great things for the economy but he did evil things as well.  The world is full of shades of grey but propaganda comes in black and white.

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13 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

That was't my point.  You are not thinking it all the way through when you invent stuff.  I've been watching Trump closely for two years.  Yet what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears is not real?  The timeline that is objective and public is not evidence?  Trump's interviews are objective and public but also not evidence?  Trump's speeches are objective and public but also not evidence?  Trump's tweets are objective and public but also not evidence?  Trump's comments to reporters are objective and public but also not evidence?

 

But you making stuff up is evidence.  FDR did great things for the economy but he did evil things as well.  The world is full of shades of grey but propaganda comes in * red and red, white, and blue.

 

*Fixed :lol:

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40 minutes ago, ContraBardus said:

 

*Fixed :lol:

 

Yes, my side uses propaganda too.  In my opinion Sanders made promises that he probably knew he could not keep.  H. Clinton was constantly trying to spin her mistakes.  And now that our GodEmperor is infallible the US is full time in the propaganda business as never before.  But we have always done a little bit of propaganda.  Got to stop the Commies in Vietnam!  Manifest Destiny!  Let's pretend they didn't offer us any representation in Parliament and then pretend we don't owe them any taxes!

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/1/2018 at 9:41 PM, mymistake said:

 

 

You think that most of the world is part of a conspiracy to fake a war during a time of peace.  There is nothing I can say that is going to change your mind.  

 

LOL, yeah, it's me that's deluded here. 

This is getting comical. So, now after 18 months, Mueller indicts a baker's dozen, get this, sock puppets who worked for a click bait farm. They engaged in political work as well as anything else that would get them clicks to sell product ads on. At one point they tweeted for a Trump rally that 8 suckers showed up for. I just can't take anyone who takes this seriously seriously anymore. It's the dumbest thing I've seen ever coming out of the political sphere and it had a lot of competition. As Jill Stein mentioned, it doesn't even pass the laugh test. 

 

So, yeah, you're right, nothing you can say will change my mind until those you get your info from severely up their game. 

 

Just a heads up, while they got you looking for Russian sock puppets under every bush, they are getting ready to go after your Social Security, and all those pols who got you fired up over Trump, the fascist, just gave him a bigger military budget than he asked for and now they want you to give Donald Tiny hands the power to censor your political speech and are begging him to take the guns too. It's really sad. 

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2 hours ago, Vigile said:

 So, yeah, you're right, nothing you can say will change my mind until those you get your info from severely up their game. 

 

I'm sorry.  The internet is a big place and so many sources insist on using facts.  I have no idea where to go to get Putin's truth strait from Putin.  Well, maybe reddit the donald but I would get banned from that place immediately.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Vigile said:

Just a heads up . . . 

 

I didn't vote for those people and there is nothing I can do about them.  The US government doesn't represent the people.

 

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