Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 15, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 15, 2018 Ok ok I get the point. I wasn't attacking anyone, I wasn't saying anything was a crime. Sheesh. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VerbosityCat Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 23 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: Ok ok I get the point. I wasn't attacking anyone, I wasn't saying anything was a crime. Sheesh. Carry on. I didn't say you were attacking. Merely that it often feels like atheists want to "debate" in the ex-c spirituality forum and I don't think that's the purpose of this particular forum. None of us has to defend ourselves or explain ourselves to atheists. We don't have to have our views "approved" or passed through the "logical reasonable" filter. It's okay for us to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 17, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, VerbosityCat said: I didn't say you were attacking. Merely that it often feels like atheists want to "debate" in the ex-c spirituality forum and I don't think that's the purpose of this particular forum. Yes, I'm aware of that, which is why I tried to phrase my post in question in a manner that was not confrontational nor debating. Obviously I failed to achieve this. I was simply asking that even given a belief in spiritual things, whether the way you were thinking about it would help lead in the right spiritual direction. That's not quite phrased right, but hopefully you understand what I mean. 1 hour ago, VerbosityCat said: None of us has to defend ourselves or explain ourselves to atheists. We don't have to have our views "approved" or passed through the "logical reasonable" filter. It's okay for us to exist. Never said you did. I think we are talking past each other to be honest. It is quite clear re the thread title, that regardless of whether 'atheists' intentionally put spiritual people off, spiritual people are put off anyway. Which is interesting to me. Random free thought for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 This thread should possibly be moved to Science vs Religion since: 1. This subforum is supposed to be about spirituality 2. Is protected to encourage the free flow of spiritual ideas 3. Because of 1 and 2 it's not really fair to blast atheists, without them being able to blast us wooists back. LF is a good guy, even if he's from New Zealand. (haha) And so are all the other atheists here. I welcome their viewpoint on this thread as long as the thread is moved. Otherwise my request is that this thread be closed. But I'm just a peon here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 17, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 31 minutes ago, midniterider said: This thread should possibly be moved to Science vs Religion since: 1. This subforum is supposed to be about spirituality 2. Is protected to encourage the free flow of spiritual ideas 3. Because of 1 and 2 it's not really fair to blast atheists, without them being able to blast us wooists back. LF is a good guy, even if he's from New Zealand. (haha) And so are all the other atheists here. I welcome their viewpoint on this thread as long as the thread is moved. Otherwise my request is that this thread be closed. But I'm just a peon here. Aye aye… yes.. just reading the title made my heart bleed thinking my atheistness could have such a bad effect without any ill intent. Class A Exhibit of reasonableness there Midniterider 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 hour ago, LogicalFallacy said: Aye aye… yes.. just reading the title made my heart bleed thinking my atheistness could have such a bad effect without any ill intent. Class A Exhibit of reasonableness there Midniterider Or leave the thread where it is....kicks LF in the butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 17, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 Call me old fashioned, but I think people should examine their beliefs rather than adopt them blindly. I always wonder WHY someone thinks they can cast a spell with magic words. I'm curious as to WHY someone thinks astrology makes sense. WHY do crystals have magic powers. Critical thinking and factual evidence should accompany extraordinary beliefs, from Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Witchcraft to the plethora of New Age beliefs. I contend we need a better reason to believe something fantastic than simply wanting to believe it. But I'm just old fashioned. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 4:14 PM, VerbosityCat said: Yeah I'm not sure why there is like this need to "debate" and argue with non-christians on this forum who have other spiritual beliefs. Who the fuck cares? A big part of the issue for most of us with Christianity has literally nothing to do with "whether it's true or not" we don't believe it's true obviously, but it's because it HARMED most of us. We were fucking miserable and terrified and little mind-controlled slaves. I guess there is an atheist Great Commission to make atheists of all peoples and nations. I'm sure the world would be a better place if we all thought the same way , right? If truth is of ultimate important in someone's life, why would you ever get married or have a romantic relationship with someone? Why would you watch football? It's illogical. Why read fiction or watch tv or movie dramas. Fiction is false. None of these things support reality. None of these things support science. All I can figure is that any belief in something other than what can be detected by science strikes fear in some people and they have to stamp it out. They will even come to the ex-Christian spirituality forum to stamp it out. On 10/15/2018 at 4:14 PM, VerbosityCat said: I just don't see the same need for anybody to pull the fire alarm over "oh no, someone has an idea about something that we can't measure in a lab". I get that there probably are a lot of autistic people who make all their choices based in spock-like logic. Some of them may be on this very forum. But... most people don't live their lives "rationally". Most of life is lived non-rationally and then rationality is used to justify "whatever" be that theism, atheism, or any other spectrum of being in the world in any sphere of life. Most people rely more on their emotions for how they live and experience the world than their logic. And thank the gods. If everybody was running around like computers, I would say what the fuck is the point of all this? I don't think it's a crime to believe there is a bit of magic in the world. A mystery we will never fully unlock or be able to explain because we are too small to be able to understand the vastness of what is. I dont think it's a crime to believe in a bit of magic in the world and I plan to continue doing so , logic, science and evidence be damned. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 17, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 35 minutes ago, midniterider said: I dont think it's a crime to believe in a bit of magic in the world and I plan to continue doing so , logic, science and evidence be damned. I would caveat this by saying as long as your magical beliefs do not harm others and you don't act on them. There are 2 billion people who believe in a magical sky daddy that's gonna send you to he'll if you don't love his zombie son. And they indoctrinate children with this and it causes real harm. Apart from that I agree you can believe what you want. I like to converse with people why they would believe xyz but if you don't want to talk I'm cool yo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker0 Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/15/2018 at 7:14 PM, VerbosityCat said: Yeah I'm not sure why there is like this need to "debate" and argue with non-christians on this forum who have other spiritual beliefs. Who the fuck cares? A big part of the issue for most of us with Christianity has literally nothing to do with "whether it's true or not" we don't believe it's true obviously, but it's because it HARMED most of us. We were fucking miserable and terrified and little mind-controlled slaves. I think a good many leave because they start examining the issues logically. From what I know of @LogicalFallacy, would he agree this is the case with him? Some leave due to the emotional harm and turmoil, which starts the process for them, others leave because they just decide to exercise their minds and curiosity and then it all explodes in their face. And yes of course, some may have been consciously aware of the harm it was causing, but I don't think this is necessarily the case for everyone. On 10/15/2018 at 7:14 PM, VerbosityCat said: I just don't see the same need for anybody to pull the fire alarm over "oh no, someone has an idea about something that we can't measure in a lab". I get that there probably are a lot of autistic people who make all their choices based in spock-like logic. Some of them may be on this very forum. But... most people don't live their lives "rationally". Most of life is lived non-rationally and then rationality is used to justify "whatever" be that theism, atheism, or any other spectrum of being in the world in any sphere of life. Most people rely more on their emotions for how they live and experience the world than their logic. And thank the gods. If everybody was running around like computers, I would say what the fuck is the point of all this? What I think is that there is a spectrum. Some are more inclined to balance with emotion and logic, and some lean more one way or the other on average, but largely it depends on the decisions we are making; we will use emotion or logic more in one decision than another. I'm careful about using words like "most" (because I've been criticized for drawing such conclusions on this very forum). There are indeed people who are somewhat distrustful of using emotion and do rely on logic quite a bit, but why this is the case, I'm not sure. On 10/15/2018 at 7:14 PM, VerbosityCat said: I don't think it's a crime to believe there is a bit of magic in the world. A mystery we will never fully unlock or be able to explain because we are too small to be able to understand the vastness of what is. I understand where you're coming from. It is completely fine and indeed admirable to cultivate an attitude of wonder, and not have the answers to everything, because we simply can't, and to call this realm of the human experience "magic." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 6 hours ago, florduh said: Call me old fashioned, but I think people should examine their beliefs rather than adopt them blindly. I always wonder WHY someone thinks they can cast a spell with magic words. I'm curious as to WHY someone thinks astrology makes sense. WHY do crystals have magic powers. Critical thinking and factual evidence should accompany extraordinary beliefs, from Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Witchcraft to the plethora of New Age beliefs. I contend we need a better reason to believe something fantastic than simply wanting to believe it. But I'm just old fashioned. Why? It is my personal preference to believe that magic works, that astrology is a thing and crystals have magic powers. I enjoy it and it harms nobody. Your personal preference appears to be that woo is all bullshit. At one time it was both your personal preference and mine that Jesus Christ was our Lord. But we changed preferences over time. Is atheism the One True Way? Should everyone be an atheist? Is non-Christian spirituality wrong? Will I cause myself emotional or mental damage if I am not an atheist? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 17, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, midniterider said: Why? It is my personal preference to believe that magic works, that astrology is a thing and crystals have magic powers. I enjoy it and it harms nobody. Your personal preference appears to be that woo is all bullshit. At one time it was both your personal preference and mine that Jesus Christ was our Lord. But we changed preferences over time. Is atheism the One True Way? Should everyone be an atheist? Is non-Christian spirituality wrong? Will I cause myself emotional or mental damage if I am not an atheist? I merely look for the reasons people believe what they do. If you are a Christian, a Muslim or a Witch simply because you were raised in that particular culture then your deeply held belief is without foundation. I did not tout Atheism, but if asked why I do not believe in gods I can make a case. Atheism, as well as most spiritual beliefs, do no harm to others (with some exceptions where medical intervention is withheld) but simply doing no harm is not much of a reason. If anyone would tell me that my fate is found in the stars or I will come into money if I cast a money spell and bless my house, then I need to know why they would think such a thing. Lacking any reason to believe it I must dismiss it, but I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 52 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: I would caveat this by saying as long as your magical beliefs do not harm others and you don't act on them. There are 2 billion people who believe in a magical sky daddy that's gonna send you to he'll if you don't love his zombie son. And they indoctrinate children with this and it causes real harm. Apart from that I agree you can believe what you want. I like to converse with people why they would believe xyz but if you don't want to talk I'm cool yo. I dont indoctrinate anyone into my personal belief system. It's quite a mess in there, anyway (haha). I'll take Florduh's astrology and magic and crystal power as examples: 1. Astrologers don't have a great commission to make astrologers of all people. 2. Neither do pagans (magic people). 3. Neither do crystal users. None of these things are Christianity. They were not designed and do not have a built-in survival mechanism to guilt you into doing them. To think that various paranormal or new agey stuff operates like Christianity (or Scientology) and will trap you in a mental prison is false. I've never heard of astrologer hell nor astrologer church either. There's always exceptions of course. Now, as a pagan I don't give a rats ass what someone else believes. I think that's pretty common among pagans. If someone wants to be a Christian or atheist or whatever, fine with me. If someone causes harm by fear, shame or guilt, then it's wrong. I'm not going to be shamed or feared back into Christianity nor into atheism either. ------------ Part 2 of your message: Why do I believe xyz? It feels good. Truth and reality are not my primary philosophical motivators. -------- Two billion Christians believe 'something.' As a Christian I kind of blew off the Hell idea. Not everyone who identifies as Christian is a full-blown fundy freak that worries about hell. Some are CINOs. There's quite a variety and levels of belief within the Christian ranks. Granted, some people are completely flipped out about hell while other believers may not give it any thought at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 17, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, midniterider said: I dont indoctrinate anyone into my personal belief system. It's quite a mess in there, anyway (haha). I'll take Florduh's astrology and magic and crystal power as examples: 1. Astrologers don't have a great commission to make astrologers of all people. 2. Neither do pagans (magic people). 3. Neither do crystal users. None of these things are Christianity. They were not designed and do not have a built-in survival mechanism to guilt you into doing them. To think that various paranormal or new agey stuff operates like Christianity (or Scientology) and will trap you in a mental prison is false. I've never heard of astrologer hell nor astrologer church either. There's always exceptions of course. Now, as a pagan I don't give a rats ass what someone else believes. I think that's pretty common among pagans. If someone wants to be a Christian or atheist or whatever, fine with me. If someone causes harm by fear, shame or guilt, then it's wrong. I'm not going to be shamed or feared back into Christianity nor into atheism either. ------------ Part 2 of your message: Why do I believe xyz? It feels good. Truth and reality are not my primary philosophical motivators. -------- Two billion Christians believe 'something.' As a Christian I kind of blew off the Hell idea. Not everyone who identifies as Christian is a full-blown fundy freak that worries about hell. Some are CINOs. There's quite a variety and levels of belief within the Christian ranks. Granted, some people are completely flipped out about hell while other believers may not give it any thought at all. That a belief system doesn't proselytize doesn't imply it's validity. But thanks for your admission and honesty. That's hard to come by. "Truth and reality are not my primary philosophical motivators." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, florduh said: I merely look for the reasons people believe what they do. If you are a Christian, a Muslim or a Witch simply because you were raised in that particular culture then your deeply held belief is without foundation. I did not tout Atheism, but if asked why I do not believe in gods I can make a case. Atheism, as well as most spiritual beliefs, do no harm to others (with some exceptions where medical intervention is withheld) but simply doing no harm is not much of a reason. If anyone would tell me that my fate is found in the stars or I will come into money if I cast a money spell and bless my house, then I need to know why they would think such a thing. Lacking any reason to believe it I must dismiss it, but I'm listening. If I was raised in the particular culture of atheism/agnosticism is my deeply held belief without foundation? That's how I was raised. Though, in America. I wasn't raised as a Christian nor Muslim nor witch. I felt drawn to witchery so studied it and found it fascinating. If someone believes their fate is found in the stars, then they may perhaps gain something supernatural from it. They may also strive to accomplish what they think their zodiac reading is telling them. Now if someone tells me that my astrological fate is to be a heroin addict, I'm not going to leave my wife, live on the street and shoot up. If someone says he just cast a spell on me that will make me watch Dr Phil everyday , I will lift up my magical middle finger and banish his spell to The Deep. LoL. I answered LF's question "Why" with "Because it feels good." I enjoy it. Some people like woo. Some don't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, florduh said: That a belief system doesn't proselytize doesn't imply it's validity. But thanks for your admission and honesty. That's hard to come by. "Truth and reality are not my primary philosophical motivators." I was trying to say that paganism doesn't evangelize so , if you feel it is harmful then a person has to decide to harm himself. Nobody will be knocking on your door handing you a pagan tract. Regarding validity, I know that you and others don't buy into any woo. I'm just posting here in this forum to generate some activity for those who do like it and may come out of the woodwork. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 17, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 minute ago, midniterider said: I was trying to say that paganism doesn't evangelize so , if you feel it is harmful then a person has to decide to harm himself. Nobody will be knocking on your door handing you a pagan tract. Regarding validity, I know that you and others don't buy into any woo. I'm just posting here in this forum to generate some activity for those who do like it and may come out of the woodwork. You're reading more into my posts than is there. Evangelizing is still irrelevant. I didn't say any such beliefs were inherently harmful other than the example of a belief causing someone to withhold medical attention in favor of magic. The only harm is perhaps one is embracing an impediment to understanding reality. Frankly, I find your admission that truth and reality are essentially irrelevant to be worrisome and sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 49 minutes ago, florduh said: You're reading more into my posts than is there. Evangelizing is still irrelevant. I didn't say any such beliefs were inherently harmful other than the example of a belief causing someone to withhold medical attention in favor of magic. The only harm is perhaps one is embracing an impediment to understanding reality. Frankly, I find your admission that truth and reality are essentially irrelevant to be worrisome and sad. I dont really sit around the house doing magic all day while denying reality. Do atheists drink or smoke pot? Or read fiction? Those are reality altering things. I guess I dont really sit around the house all day reading the latest science news either. I just hang out on this computer, play video games, do some ham radio, and work. I have two IT degrees and two FCC licenses. I've been working the FM birds AO-91 and AO-92 when they fly by. I've been fiddling with DMR radio. I've been doing some mini-software projects. I'm a bit of science nerd. I love science, but it aint my Jesus. A little magic is fun too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VerbosityCat Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 22 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said: Yes, I'm aware of that, which is why I tried to phrase my post in question in a manner that was not confrontational nor debating. Obviously I failed to achieve this. I was simply asking that even given a belief in spiritual things, whether the way you were thinking about it would help lead in the right spiritual direction. That's not quite phrased right, but hopefully you understand what I mean. Never said you did. I think we are talking past each other to be honest. It is quite clear re the thread title, that regardless of whether 'atheists' intentionally put spiritual people off, spiritual people are put off anyway. Which is interesting to me. Random free thought for the day. I think it's akin to the knee jerk I have to Christians. There are actually plenty of Christians out there who are happy to live and let live and don't feel compelled to push their beliefs on me, but due to my exposure to dogmatic fundamentalist missionary Christians I am automatically on guard around them in a way I'm not around other faith groups. And when it comes to atheists, my exposure to dogmatic missionary atheists influences how I respond when an atheist says something that feels like the compulsive urge many (not all) have to deconvert me and others with any spiritual views. My husband is an atheist, but not a dogmatic type. He doesn't give a shit what I believe or don't believe so long as I'm not harmed by it. He'd never tried to press his will on me. But I've met many atheists who have. Just like many Christians have. So I apologize if I mistook you for that other kind of atheist. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VerbosityCat Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 11 hours ago, florduh said: Call me old fashioned, but I think people should examine their beliefs rather than adopt them blindly. I always wonder WHY someone thinks they can cast a spell with magic words. I'm curious as to WHY someone thinks astrology makes sense. WHY do crystals have magic powers. Critical thinking and factual evidence should accompany extraordinary beliefs, from Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Witchcraft to the plethora of New Age beliefs. I contend we need a better reason to believe something fantastic than simply wanting to believe it. But I'm just old fashioned. 3 hours ago, florduh said: That a belief system doesn't proselytize doesn't imply it's validity. But thanks for your admission and honesty. That's hard to come by. "Truth and reality are not my primary philosophical motivators." For me I would agree with "truth and reality are not my primary philosophical motivators" but that's only because I think truth and reality in the ultimate sense are absolutely 100% unknowable to peon humans. It's like saying a 2 year old can grasp calculus. It's a total nonsequitor. Necessarily we will use poetic language to describe things. Some of our poetic language will become literalized in our heads because that's how some people process things and some won't. I just don't think "being right about how everything works" is the point of our existence. It's nice to know stuff and always be learning and I am not anti-learning or anti-science, just that we should all have a big dose of humility with whatever our "grand theories" about the universe are. For me, this is a bag to put my shit in. It's a frame that helps me to make sense of my world and my place in it. It's a big story to aspire to. It's people before me (my ancestors) to admire and look up to. It's stories that belong to me by right of inheritance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted October 17, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted October 17, 2018 21 hours ago, midniterider said: This thread should possibly be moved to Science vs Religion since: 1. This subforum is supposed to be about spirituality 2. Is protected to encourage the free flow of spiritual ideas 3. Because of 1 and 2 it's not really fair to blast atheists, without them being able to blast us wooists back. LF is a good guy, even if he's from New Zealand. (haha) And so are all the other atheists here. I welcome their viewpoint on this thread as long as the thread is moved. Otherwise my request is that this thread be closed. But I'm just a peon here. 11 hours ago, florduh said: Call me old fashioned, but I think people should examine their beliefs rather than adopt them blindly. I always wonder WHY someone thinks they can cast a spell with magic words. I'm curious as to WHY someone thinks astrology makes sense. WHY do crystals have magic powers. Critical thinking and factual evidence should accompany extraordinary beliefs, from Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Witchcraft to the plethora of New Age beliefs. I contend we need a better reason to believe something fantastic than simply wanting to believe it. But I'm just old fashioned. Everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes "helping" ex christians. I put this thread here for a reason, the reason being that the context of the discussion is to talk with spiritual minded ex christians about their relations elsewhere in the sub forums. The idea was to try and see if any resolve can be found between the hard atheists and spiritual minded members. Because nearly all of the spiritual minded members have left, some telling me on the way out how put off they've been by the hard atheist's taking a dominant roll and basically muscling them out of here. I'm good with doing a mirror conversation in the Den or anywhere else about ex christian spirituality with no holds barred. But this tread is supposed to be for those who aren't interested in going head to head in hard debate about it. This is only meant to be a 'casual state your problem' and try and see if there's a way of coming to any resolve, placed in what has been designated a "safe space," of sorts for spiritual discussion. I think a mirror conversation in an aggressive area would actually be good, though. I'll certainly be there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted October 18, 2018 Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2018 4 hours ago, midniterider said: Should everyone be an atheist? I wonder if you are confusing terms here? Remember atheism is only the position on whether God's exist. Now most people are actually mostly atheist but some have gone an extra step. This is different from being aspiritualist. I think a better question is should everyone be a philosophical materialist? Well no... but I just don't see any evidence to support the claim to the contrary- that is that there is a supernatural or spiritual or metaphysical realm to our reality. But atheism says nothing about this. I think you can be both atheist and a spiritualist. We have some on discord. So the threat title is flawed methinks. It should be anyone put off by philosophical materialist who demand logic and reason as a means of obtaining truth? But that's not catchy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 18, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2018 35 minutes ago, Joshpantera said: Everyone has their own ideas about what constitutes "helping" ex christians. I put this thread here for a reason, the reason being that the context of the discussion is to talk with spiritual minded ex christians about their relations elsewhere in the sub forums. The idea was to try and see if any resolve can be found between the hard atheists and spiritual minded members. Because nearly all of the spiritual minded members have left, some telling me on the way out how put off they've been by the hard atheist's taking a dominant roll and basically muscling them out of here. I'm good with doing a mirror conversation in the Den or anywhere else about ex christian spirituality with no holds barred. But this tread is supposed to be for those who aren't interested in going head to head in hard debate about it. This is only meant to be a 'casual state your problem' and try and see if there's a way of coming to any resolve, placed in what has been designated a "safe space," of sorts for spiritual discussion. I think a mirror conversation in an aggressive area would actually be good, though. I'll certainly be there. I was not attacking any beliefs, but only asking questions. It seems that questions are not welcome in certain quarters. The one answer I did get was enlightening, if you'll pardon the expression. I suspect that asking anything such as "why do you believe that?" is seen as an attack by those who have no answer. God forbid anyone examine their own beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted October 18, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2018 18 minutes ago, florduh said: I was not attacking any beliefs, but only asking questions. It seems that questions are not welcome in certain quarters. The one answer I did get was enlightening, if you'll pardon the expression. I suspect that asking anything such as "why do you believe that?" is seen as an attack by those who have no answer. God forbid anyone examine their own beliefs. My thing is that the real in depth spirituality, like Watt's and the stuff you know well, loses it's personal god aspect. It's not really god belief in a traditional sense. There's the leave taking of god for god, which amounts to leaving the personal idea for an impersonal and finally completely transcendent idea. That's not theism by the time we get there. That could become a common ground for spiritual thinkers with atheist's. Maybe understanding that not believing in the personal god beliefs is well founded, even for spiritual reasons. In depth philosophical materialism is similar, very similar in fact. Because if we go far enough into it we're facing complete mystery, uncertainty, and a general lack of knowing at the base of all serious inquiry. Plus, discovering how off our perceptions of reality are due to evolution gearing us towards perceptions for "fitness" rather than "truth." So possibly philosophical materialists can relate to those who see the world as mysterious, because it literally is, regardless of how much we know, perceive, or directly experience. The higher ground is always uncertainty. So maybe people could relate to one another by looking at the bigger picture of each world view or way of thinking. The spiritual ways dissolve god belief if followed through far enough, and the philosophical materialist ways outline how much we don't actually know, if followed through far enough. I was toying with the idea of seeing how people would respond to this line of thinking. And if it could pave a way towards a better understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 18, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted October 18, 2018 26 minutes ago, Joshpantera said: It's not really god belief in a traditional sense. Many beliefs involve a god and many do not. My questions about the more unusual beliefs remain, deity or not. But I totally agree that the ultimate end of a sincere spiritual quest leaves no place for a god in any normal sense of the word. The interesting thing is you would likely never know who has arrived at his ultimate enlightenment because he plays the game so well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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