True & False

[ironhorse]

16 hours ago, midniterider said:

God inspired ripping babies from the womb in Hosea 13:16.

 

 

I disagree with your conclusion on Hosea 13:16.

 

 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

    because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

    their pregnant women ripped open.

~ Hosea 13:16

The entire of book of Hosea is about the sinful and unrepentant hearts of the Israelites. God, time and time again, warns His people about the consequences of their sins. God offers a solution to the problem. He will forgive Israel of their wrongdoings and accept them once again, it is a call for repentance.

"Samaria" (God was speaking of the northern nation Israel), was deep in rebellion against God. Verse 16 is about what would happen to them when invaded by the Assyrians. The words of this verse are not God’s wish for them, but instead they are His lament, for these awful things would shortly happen.

 

 

 

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

I disagree with your conclusion on Hosea 13:16.

 

 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

    because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

    their pregnant women ripped open.

~ Hosea 13:16

The entire of book of Hosea is about the sinful and unrepentant hearts of the Israelites. God, time and time again, warns His people about the consequences of their sins. God offers a solution to the problem. He will forgive Israel of their wrongdoings and accept them once again, it is a call for repentance.

"Samaria" (God was speaking of the northern nation Israel), was deep in rebellion against God. Verse 16 is about what would happen to them when invaded by the Assyrians. The words of this verse are not God’s wish for them, but instead they are His lament, for these awful things would shortly happen.

 

 

 

 

You are factually wrong regarding the theology.  In the theology God decides what the wages of sin will be.  So it is God's decision.

 

But you are also wrong in the real world because plenty of good Christian couples lose their babies every day.  It happens to Jewish couples as well.  People can follow the religious rules or have a perfect "relationship with Jesus" and they still have their loved ones "called home" at the worst times.  Statistically bad things happens just as often to "good" Christians as they do to everyone else so it is all in your head.  When you get bad luck you tell yourself that God is testing your faith.  When the exact same thing happens to someone else for the exact same reason you decide it is God judging sin.  You are fooling yourself.  Bad things happen because we can't pay attention to or know all the details.  Christ isn't watching out for you either and there are no guardian angels. 

 

[sdelsolray]

19 hours ago, ironhorse said:

[Large fonted text snipped]

 

Empty Christian preaching.  Let's deconstruct this:

 

Quote

All the Bible, every word, was written by people inspired by God.

 

Several mere assertions and assumptions here.  Religious believers like to pretend their beliefs are actual facts.  No surprise here.

 

Quote

This does not mean that every individual word or sentence is God speaking, but they are words and sentences that are “God-breathed.”

 

An apologetic.  Note the small dose of mysticism with the use of the term "God-breathed".  That's certainly convincing.

 

Quote

This means that God was superintending (managing) the writers so that, allowing them to use using their own individual personalities (and even their own writing styles), they composed and recorded without error His revelations and messages to us.

 

More mere assertions and assumptions, designed to appear insightful.  The attempt to use them as an explanation of the prior mere assertions is typical and akin to a house of cards.

 

Quote

God’s management and inspiration through his Spirit insured what they wrote was precisely what God wanted written.

 

Piling on more dogma.  No evidentiary support.  None.  No rational thinking.  Just more empty and shallow religious dogma.  Note the adding of "his Spirit".  Do I sense a trinity believer here?

 

Quote

So, to answer your question: Yes, all the Bible is the word of God. They are the words he wanted used and allowed to be used.

 

A conclusion based on nothing but mere assertions, assumptions and related religious dogma, with undercurrents of imaginary magic, which renders the statement worthless.  Apparently, the bolded text is more important than all previous text.

 

Quote

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

~ John 1:14 (NIV)

 

An obligatory Bible passage.  The lack of relevance is obvious, except to support the writer's trinity belief of course.

[quinntar]

2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

I disagree with your conclusion on Hosea 13:16.

 

 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

    because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

    their pregnant women ripped open.

~ Hosea 13:16

The entire of book of Hosea is about the sinful and unrepentant hearts of the Israelites. God, time and time again, warns His people about the consequences of their sins. God offers a solution to the problem. He will forgive Israel of their wrongdoings and accept them once again, it is a call for repentance.

"Samaria" (God was speaking of the northern nation Israel), was deep in rebellion against God. Verse 16 is about what would happen to them when invaded by the Assyrians. The words of this verse are not God’s wish for them, but instead they are His lament, for these awful things would shortly happen.

 

 

 

Why are you trying to make this God palatable, can't you see that the verse Hosea 13:16 contradicts New Testament theology.

 

1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

How do you balance out the malevolent Old Testament God with today's New Testament concept of love (Charity)  

 

 

  

[midniterider]

[Love,] It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

They say God is love. Wonder why he sends people to hell? Hmmm...

[LogicalFallacy]

On ‎19‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 5:46 AM, ironhorse said:

The Bible contains words spoken by various people, some good, some bad. What is written in the Bible is inspired of God, it is there because God wants it there. Not everything that people spoke was in agreement with God. The scriptures are inspired, but not every word or sentence is a direct quote of God’s.

It does contain direct quotes ("Thus says the Lord...", "And God said...", etc.). God also spoke at times through the prophets.

Jesus is called the Word.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

~ John 1:14 (NIV)

 

@ironhorse

 

Bump for your attention. You claim the bible is inspired. The following is in the bible. Do you find it inspired?

 

23 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So all the rules on slavery and rape are inspired?

 

The description of a flat earth surrounded by a solid dome with water above and below it is inspired?

 

When Moses commands the Hebrews to slaughter man, women and child, its inspired?

 

When Paul says Women shall not speak in church or hold authority over man, its inspired?

 

When Jesus refers to Adam and Eve and talking snakes as real, it's inspired?

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

I disagree with your conclusion on Hosea 13:16.

 

 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

    because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

    their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

    their pregnant women ripped open.

~ Hosea 13:16

The entire of book of Hosea is about the sinful and unrepentant hearts of the Israelites. God, time and time again, warns His people about the consequences of their sins. God offers a solution to the problem. He will forgive Israel of their wrongdoings and accept them once again, it is a call for repentance.

"Samaria" (God was speaking of the northern nation Israel), was deep in rebellion against God. Verse 16 is about what would happen to them when invaded by the Assyrians. The words of this verse are not God’s wish for them, but instead they are His lament, for these awful things would shortly happen.

 

 

 

So, god is pro-abortion, so long as the person having one is a dirty hellion?

[quinntar]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

[Love,] It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

They say God is love. Wonder why he sends people to hell? Hmmm...

If you think about it the God of the Old Testament was responsible for destroying those who he deemed wicked, back then that was the only deterrent for sinfulness. In the New Testament the new God (Jesus) shifted his responsibility for personal discipline, and used hell as a deterrent for sinfulness.

[ironhorse]

4 hours ago, theanticrash said:

Why are you trying to make this God palatable, can't you see that the verse Hosea 13:16 contradicts New Testament theology.

 

1 Corinthians 13 New International Version (NIV)
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

How do you balance out the malevolent Old Testament God with today's New Testament concept of love (Charity)  

 

 

  

 

 

Why are you trying to make this God palatable, can't you see that the verse Hosea 13:16 contradicts New Testament theology.

I’m not trying to make God palatable. I was just stating what is in the text and the theme of Hosea. It does not contradict what the scriptures teach on love.

 

OT and NT reveal the message of one God.

The message is love, but the message is also about the judgement and penalty of sin. 

The NT has around 125 verses warning of judgement and wrath.

Here’s one:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

~ (Matthew 7:13 (NIV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

So, IH do you believe that:

 

1. Hell is eternal torment?

2. Hell is where people go who don't love Jesus?

3. Jesus is all loving?

 

If your child said they did not love you and you had the power to do so, would you send your child to eternal torment?

[midniterider]

The NT has around 125 verses warning of judgement and wrath.

 

Glad I'm not part of that nonsense anymore.

[mymistake]

59 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

Why are you trying to make this God palatable, can't you see that the verse Hosea 13:16 contradicts New Testament theology.

I’m not trying to make God palatable. I was just stating what is in the text and the theme of Hosea. It does not contradict what the scriptures teach on love.

 

OT and NT reveal the message of one God.

The message is love, but the message is also about the judgement and penalty of sin. 

 

 

 

 

So if I marry and rape a slave girl that I own there is no penalty because God has decided that this is not a sin?  Don't worry, I will be sure to follow God's law and capture her in war, after I have killed her parents, brothers and any sister old enough to have known a man.  I don't want the penalty of sin because that would be death.  (The thing I just gave to my slave's family.)  Just my way of showing them God's love.  Always obey the big guy in the sky.

 

[quinntar]

1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

Why are you trying to make this God palatable, can't you see that the verse Hosea 13:16 contradicts New Testament theology.

I’m not trying to make God palatable. I was just stating what is in the text and the theme of Hosea. It does not contradict what the scriptures teach on love.

 

OT and NT reveal the message of one God.

The message is love, but the message is also about the judgement and penalty of sin. 

The NT has around 125 verses warning of judgement and wrath.

Here’s one:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

~ (Matthew 7:13 (NIV)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Old Testament and New Testament are in conflict with each other on so many level's. It also forces a moral code on humans, that both the Old Testament God and Jesus are exempt from.

Of course you see that all these conflicting verses are in harmony, because whatever this God does in the bible is intrinsically good.

[ironhorse]

16 hours ago, midniterider said:

So, IH do you believe that:

 

1. Hell is eternal torment?

2. Hell is where people go who don't love Jesus?

3. Jesus is all loving?

 

If your child said they did not love you and you had the power to do so, would you send your child to eternal torment?

 

1. Hell is eternal torment?

 

In Christian theology there are four views on hell: 1. Annihilation:  2. Metaphorical 3. Purgatorial 4. Natural-Literal

Explanation of terms:

http://pk.b5z.net/i/u/2167316/f/Views_of_Hell.pdf

 

The view I accept is Metaphorical. It could be annihilation. I can’t say dogmatically. Whatever it is, I accept it is real and it does mean eternal separation from God.

 

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

 

2. Hell is where people go who don't love Jesus?

The one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36).

 

3. Jesus is all loving?

I believe the scriptures teach that on the cross Jesus was punished for every person’s sin. He took the punishment, the hell, for all.  I call that loving

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

Is love real when a fear of hell underlies it?

 

I would say it is not.

 

Anticrash quoted the bible: 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

 

God's wrath on the non-believer (John 3:36) appears to be in conflict with love being patient, love being kind. IH says God is love and there's a handy biblical explanation of what love is, so ....Does God (Love) really not envy nor boast? (Ex 20:5) Is God really not proud? Does God not dishonor others? (Hmm, Job? Abraham?). God/Love is not self-seeking? Ummmm, yeah. Right. (John 3:18, John 3:36).

 

God keeps no record of wrongs? Why yes he does: https://www.openbible.info/topics/judgment

 

God does not delight in evil? (Job, Abraham/Isaac) Isaiah 45:7 , or actually just read Isaiah 45 from the start. It's very boastful, proud and not only claiming creation of evil but delighting in it, I'd say. But hey, that's the old testament, right...Jesus is love ....Hey, wait. Mt 10:33 - 10:38. Not my idea of love, really.

 

Love does always protect, always trust, always hope, always persevere. I agree with that scripture. Is sending your child to hell 'always' protecting, always hoping, always persevering?

 

No.

 

Love is also active and doing. Not always absent. Not invisible. Absent and invisible equals non-existent.

 

For the lurkers, if you feel compelled to love a God, love that God on your own terms. Dont let the bible define it for you. Dont let other people define it. Stay away from organized religion. Stay away from churches.

 

Christianity is based on fear. It's not healthy.

 

 

 

 

[quinntar]

37 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

 

1. Hell is eternal torment?

 

In Christian theology there are four views on hell: 1. Annihilation:  2. Metaphorical 3. Purgatorial 4. Natural-Literal

Explanation of terms:

http://pk.b5z.net/i/u/2167316/f/Views_of_Hell.pdf

 

The view I accept is Metaphorical. It could be annihilation. I can’t say dogmatically. Whatever it is, I accept it is real and it does mean eternal separation from God.

 

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

 

2. Hell is where people go who don't love Jesus?

The one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36).

 

3. Jesus is all loving?

I believe the scriptures teach that on the cross Jesus was punished for every person’s sin. He took the punishment, the hell, for all.  I call that loving

 

 

 

 

It could be annihilation? as you don't really know because the bible records different things about hell.

 

 

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

2. Hell is where people go who don't love Jesus?

The one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36).

 

3. Jesus is all loving?

I believe the scriptures teach that on the cross Jesus was punished for every person’s sin. He took the punishment, the hell, for all.  I call that loving

 

 

If there is unforgivable sin then Jesus didn't take the punishment for all.  If Jesus did take the punishment for all then there would be no need for Hell.  Just let everyone into Heaven.  In fact God should have skipped the Earth stage and placed everyone in Heaven to start.  No need for all the drama of a life on Earth.

 

It is stupid to require everyone to believe in a story with no evidence that the story is right but plenty of competing stories for other religions that have just as much going for them as the Bible.  If God loved us then he would not make salvation a needle in an entire haystack of false religions.  What could an all-powerful being gain from weak beings believing through blind faith in that all-powerful being?  The answer is nothing.  The whole thing is pointless suffering.

 

[quinntar]

10 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

If there is unforgivable sin then Jesus didn't take the punishment for all.  If Jesus did take the punishment for all then there would be no need for Hell.  Just let everyone into Heaven.  In fact God should have skipped the Earth stage and placed everyone in Heaven to start.  No need for all the drama of a life on Earth.

 

It is stupid to require everyone to believe in a story with no evidence that the story is right but plenty of competing stories for other religions that have just as much going for them as the Bible.  If God loved us then he would not make salvation a needle in an entire haystack of false religions.  What could an all-powerful being gain from weak beings believing through blind faith in that all-powerful being?  The answer is nothing.  The whole thing is pointless suffering.

 

I like your thinking.

[mymistake]

2 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

I like your thinking.

 

 

Thanks.  It helps to have six years of private Christian education followed by fifteen years of being an amateur Christian apologist.  

 

No wait, scratch that.  That was a terrible background and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  I'm sure there are others who have had it worse.

[mwc]

On 2/7/2018 at 7:09 AM, mymistake said:

Why is it that God always needs some human to spread the news or write down God's word?  Sounds fishy.  But you're right.  It can't be flawless and flawed at the same time.

      What if it is flawlessly flawed? 

 

          mwc

 

[quinntar]

28 minutes ago, mwc said:

      What if it is flawlessly flawed? 

 

          mwc

 

No get it right, it's perfectly mistaken.

[mwc]

1 hour ago, theanticrash said:

No get it right, it's perfectly mistaken.

     Careful.  This is just the kind of minutia that could get someone branded a heretic.  Do you really want to create a competing sect over this?  The bible is flawlessly flawed.  I've long believed this ever since I thought it up a couple of hours ago.  As far as I can tell this is the oldest and most trustworthy tradition there is.

 

          mwc

 

[quinntar]

5 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Careful.  This is just the kind of minutia that could get someone branded a heretic.  Do you really want to create a competing sect over this?  The bible is flawlessly flawed.  I've long believed this ever since I thought it up a couple of hours ago.  As far as I can tell this is the oldest and most trustworthy tradition there is.

 

          mwc

 

See the Bible was never intended to be flawlessly flawed, but perfectly mistaken. This is because it is man's attempt to reach out to know the perfection of God. But man himself is not perfect, so he makes many mistakes when communicating with the devine.

 

These mistakes do not detract from the perfection of the word of God, for God can still reveal his perfect truth through the spirit that lives in his creation.

[mwc]

3 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

See the Bible was never intended to be flawlessly flawed, but perfectly mistaken. This is because it is man's attempt to reach out to know the perfection of God. But man himself is not perfect, so he makes many mistakes when communicating with the devine.

 

These mistakes do not detract from the perfection of the word of God, for God can still reveal his perfect truth through the spirit that lives in his creation.

     Now you've done it.  My sect, which is me, just can't take that sort of heretical talk.  Your tradition is new and weird.  The time stamps confirm this.

 

          mwc

 

[quinntar]

9 minutes ago, mwc said:

     Now you've done it.  My sect, which is me, just can't take that sort of heretical talk.  Your tradition is new and weird.  The time stamps confirm this.

 

          mwc

 

Funny enough this is what Christians would actually have you believe.