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Orbit

Scientific American review of gun violence and control studies

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13 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

Of course it can change.  It has changed. 

 

When it was written it meant that every state had the right to keep a private army so that they could round up escaped slaves. 

 

Today it means that the NRA has the right to sell guns to everybody, even the insane

 

Someday I hope it will mean that a well regulated militia must be well regulated.

 

I swore I'd stay out of this current pile of mankee materials being flung full velocity. Jubusnutsalmighty.

***********

 

MM,

 

Usually I have little to argue with your posts whether my agreement came with them or not.

I have just one question please. Source your foundation historically in above black bold if you might. 

 

If you have more than a personal opinion in which to respond to place red above it too would be appreciated.

 

As for your own black bold above shows historical ignorance that is outside OP at this time,  however is relevant as foundation for discussion of 2A in united States.

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I didn't realize this was controversial.  You can start with the wiki article on slave patrols.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol  "South Carolina and Virginia selected patrols from state militias."

 

More on slave patrols:

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Slavery and the Second Amendment Slave Patrol Militias.htm

"As H. M. Henry noted: "Slavery was not only an economic and industrial system ... it was a gigantic police system." Each southern police state was "kept safe"—at least for its white citizens—by armed militias."

 

 

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/07/the-second-amendment-was-ratified-to-preserve-slavery/

" . . . to preserve the slave patrol militias in the southern states, which was necessary to get Virginia’s vote.  Founders Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Madison were totally clear on that . . . and we all should be too."

 

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2013/01/was-second-amendment-adopted-slaveholders

"In the slave states, the militias also served the function of slave patrols. The militia was available for military operations, but its biggest function was to police the slaves, intimidate the slaves and make clear to the slaves that any effort at a slave rebellion would be met with overwhelming deadly force — armed force — gun force."

 

 

Regarding our recently changed regulations:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/the-trump-administration-has-already-been-rolling-back-gun-regulations/2017/10/04/5eaad7d6-a86b-11e7-8ed2-c7114e6ac460_story.html?utm_term=.8a85b1f0a557

 

 

 

Also, must you compare everything to mankee materials?

 

 

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Guest end3
23 hours ago, Orbit said:

Here's the big question: why are Americans resistant to facts? The fact is that more guns mean more gun violence. The article reviews several studies on this. Why the anti-science bias?

Thinking facts are independent of this argument.  Freedom is foremost.  It's a product of culture. And now THAT culture is looking to modify the outcome of their culture without changing that culture.  Hell, we had rifles in the back windows of our trucks in the high school parking lot.

 

So let's just blame the culture that owned guns responsibly and used them appropriately....it's easier that stopping our immoral freedoms...

 

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8 minutes ago, end3 said:

Hell, we had rifles in the back windows of our trucks in the high school parking lot.

I hear that one all the time. Were those rifles of the AR15 variety designed for killing as many as possible in the shortest time possible, or were they perhaps just hunting rifles? What is the intended use of a hunting rifle as opposed to the AR15?

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14 minutes ago, end3 said:

Thinking facts are independent of this argument.  Freedom is foremost.  It's a product of culture. And now THAT culture is looking to modify the outcome of their culture without changing that culture.  Hell, we had rifles in the back windows of our trucks in the high school parking lot.

 

So let's just blame the culture that owned guns responsibly and used them appropriately....it's easier that stopping our immoral freedoms...

 

 

I will send thoughts and prayers when you lose your AR-15.

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2 minutes ago, florduh said:

I hear that one all the time. Were those rifles of the AR15 variety designed for killing as many as possible in the shortest time possible, or were they perhaps just hunting rifles? What is the intended use of a hunting rifle as opposed to the AR15?

Semi automatic 22's, deer rifles.  You are missing the point.  We didn't take them inside and shoot people because of our culture.  The only reason people stopped putting them in the windows was theft.  Theft probably because they needed money for drugs.....another benefit of the relative freedoms....

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3 minutes ago, Orbit said:

 

I will send thoughts and prayers when you lose your AR-15.

Ah, another cogent thought...

 

And the problem ma'am is you are likely feeding this mentality to your students.  YOU, ma'am, bear responsibility as well.

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3 minutes ago, end3 said:

Semi automatic 22's, deer rifles.  You are missing the point.  We didn't take them inside and shoot people because of our culture.  The only reason people stopped putting them in the windows was theft.  Theft probably because they needed money for drugs.....another benefit of the relative freedoms....

The point is that a deer rifle couldn't murder dozens of people within seconds even if its owner wanted it to. Deer rifles don't facilitate mass murder.

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6 minutes ago, florduh said:

The point is that a deer rifle couldn't murder dozens of people within seconds even if its owner wanted it to. Deer rifles don't facilitate mass murder.

deer rifles don't murder anyone...

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12 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ah, another cogent thought...

 

And the problem ma'am is you are likely feeding this mentality to your students.  YOU, ma'am, bear responsibility as well.

 

Talk about building a straw man. I don't have any reason to cover gun control in my classes. That was an asshole comment.

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Maybe we should build a monument to all the brave school children who have laid down their lives.  I would model it after the Vietnam Memorial Wall and make it about the same size.  I'd go chronologically and list every victim in every school shooting.  That might leave about 85% of the wall blank but the idea is that we update it with each new incident.

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16 minutes ago, end3 said:

Ah, another cogent thought...

 

And the problem ma'am is you are likely feeding this mentality to your students.  YOU, ma'am, bear responsibility as well.

 

 

Responsibility for what?  Let's ignore that your accusation was made without evidence.  What consequences did you have in mind from the "problem" as you see it?

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11 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Responsibility for what?  Let's ignore that your accusation was made without evidence.  What consequences did you have in mind from the "problem" as you see it?

Oh, the typical mentality MM.....love love love....we can cure it all with love.  I never hear the left actually propose a mechanism.  Everyone crying and hugging and then pointing fingers that the mean gun owners are the blame and if they just had more love....  But WE can do anything if it doesn't hurt others...because we are more loving/moral.  "Anything" hurts others obviously through mechanisms that people don't wish to discuss or take responsibility. 

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33 minutes ago, end3 said:

 I never hear the left actually propose a mechanism.  

 

I can fix that.

 

-We could stop overturning our laws restricting gun sales to the mentally ill.

-We could allow the CDC to study gun violence and allow our government to share data with other inquiries.

-We could look at how other developed countries handled the problem and adopt what works.

-Force private sales to use background checks and maintain records.

 

. . . mechanism proposed.

 

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39 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

I can fix that.

 

-We could stop overturning our laws restricting gun sales to the mentally ill.

-We could allow the CDC to study gun violence and allow our government to share data with other inquiries.

-We could look at how other developed countries handled the problem and adopt what works.

-Force private sales to use background checks and maintain records.

 

. . . mechanism proposed.

 

Perhaps there are regulations that we might legislate.  I'm one MM, that is skeptical about the efficacy of such.  Not trying to be argumentative, but for every rule one side proposes, there are examples of how this rule is circumvented....which makes the discussion very difficult.  In my opinion, I'm not sure how to put the toothpaste back in the tube.  The first time school shootings had even entered my mind as a possibility was Columbine.  I think at this point, my recommendation would be for the government to help fund security for the schools.  I don't see the morality ship sailing this way any time soon.

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1 hour ago, mymistake said:

 

I can fix that.

 

-We could stop overturning our laws restricting gun sales to the mentally ill.

-We could allow the CDC to study gun violence and allow our government to share data with other inquiries.

-We could look at how other developed countries handled the problem and adopt what works.

-Force private sales to use background checks and maintain records.

 

. . . mechanism proposed.

 

Excellent points. Still, everything breaks down when the FBI ignores warnings on a specific individual, when NRA money talks over everything else, when legislators really don't give a shit. We know what would work (your list) as we've seen it work elsewhere, yet the few regulations we do have are routinely unenforced. As long as legislators are permitted to take money from industry giants we will continue to serve industry giants.

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FBI does what again?

 

DWJ4ny9UQAAYoky.jpg

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14 minutes ago, SkipNChurch said:

FBI does what again?

 

DWJ4ny9UQAAYoky.jpg

 

Excuse me but who proposed a gun ban?

 

Maybe someday the United States will have a gun ban but if that happens it will be your fault, along with everyone else who behaved the same way as you.  If you continue to ignore every single attempt at compromise eventually there will be so many dead children that the political pendulum will swing the other way.  And when that dam breaks your refusal to compromise will give your opponents no choice but to never compromise with you.  You are going to turn the US into Australia.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

to a lot of us, including myself our rights are worth more than lives taken by an idiot
 

And there you have it, my friends.

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MM,

 

Long prior to my part of this generations 2A absolutists there were many many compromises with my rights. Those including '34 and '68 ought die their legislative deaths based simily on contra-Constitutional basis.

 

Not one single rule, law, proposal spoken of has or will make a single difference in how the game is played out.

 

I will to refuse to compromise any further of my Rights and life away to ensure others fears and feelings be "fixed by .gov".

 

Must be scary for the "Politikal Klas", so many of we who make 500M hits with alarming regularity with our "Modern Sporting Rifles".

 

kL

 

68910919.jpg

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Guest end3
7 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

And there you have it, my friends.

Yeah, come work for me and I will dictate everything you do and we will see if how your theory holds...

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On 2/15/2018 at 11:06 AM, florduh said:

Why is America the only country plagued by mass shootings damn near every week? Could it be that we are the only country whose legislators owned by the NRA, a lobby who pushes for zero regulation and easy access for everyone to every firearm imaginable?

 

Why don't other countries without this gun fetish have this problem?  Any reasonable guesses?

 

Not expecting much here because we know logic and common sense make no impact on religious beliefs. And I AM a gun owner, and a pretty good shot to boot. I just haven't lost my mind or joined the Church of NRA.

 

Legislators don't fear the NRA, they fear the members of the NRA. It's the members of the NRA, and those that endorse the NRA, that vote. And they vote in big numbers. 

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11 hours ago, Burnedout said:

 

What's your favorite target shooting firearm?  I like .270 and for sporting clays or skeet, a 12 gage, Stoeger myself. 

I reload .270 for some friends but I dont have one myself. I shoot .223 and .308, 9mm, 45 long colt, and yes 12 ga for clays. Mine is a remington 870 pump. I dont have anything to expensive right now but I'm working on an AR-15 and AR-10 build this year. I hope to have them done by July as I have a friend coming here from Germany who would love to shoot them. I've owned two AR-15s but slowly became dissatisfied with the cookie cutter builds you can buy at the gunshop. so I sold my last one and decided to do my own builds. Same with my last .308 it was a bolt action and once again I became dissatisfied so I sold it to build an AR-10.

 

I actually like shooting some black powder from time to time too. I have a Thompson center Black Diamond muzzle loader I like to play with :-)

 

Whats your favorite for self defense? I actually prefer 9MM just because it is easy to reload for practice at the range and recoil isn't bad. But my little bond arms derringer with the 410 defense rounds are quickly growing on me.

 

DB

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3 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

And there you have it, my friends.

you left out "who should have already had their rights taken away by existing laws" nice editing there on my words for your own purposes. Are you not tired of having words twisted to support an agenda?

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3 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

Excuse me but who proposed a gun ban?

 

Maybe someday the United States will have a gun ban but if that happens it will be your fault, along with everyone else who behaved the same way as you.  If you continue to ignore every single attempt at compromise eventually there will be so many dead children that the political pendulum will swing the other way.  And when that dam breaks your refusal to compromise will give your opponents no choice but to never compromise with you.  You are going to turn the US into Australia.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont think your done with step 5 just yet. Keep trying.

 

Like skipping church said. our rights have already been restricted in the past and we have given more than was ever desired by our founding fathers. If we keep letting it happen then they will slowly chip away at our gun rights until we are like australia.

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