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On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 2:38 PM, L.B. said:

 

I've asked this so many times... I'll even refrain from my usual swearing and ad-hominem blasts, and I'll ask nicely:

 

How are you (or how is anyone) qualified to dictate to anyone whether something is a "false teaching" or not?

 

What makes you an expert, and by which officially-recognized body of theologians have you been accredited?

 

Why is it that something which you call a "false" teaching is often a cornerstone of orthodoxy for some other Christian group?

 

Please tell us... I'm sure we here at Ex-C would LOVE to know for sure that we have a completely legitimate representative of Christianity as a contributing member here.

 

It would help us understand things so much more clearly if we knew that one of the Christians here was recognized as an actual expert authority - someone who could speak definitively about matters of the Christian religion.

 

 

 

I've asked this so many times... I'll even refrain from my usual swearing and ad-hominem blasts, and I'll ask nicely:

 

How are you (or how is anyone) qualified to dictate to anyone whether something is a "false teaching" or not?

Concerning the scriptures, the scriptures warns of false teaching and tells us to search the scriptures to see if what they say is true. The scripture is the authority. So, I guess you could say exercising this skill of searching and studying the scriptures on these issues, qualifies a believer to make a judgement on teachings that do not align with scripture.

 

What makes you an expert, and by which officially-recognized body of theologians have you been accredited?

I’m not recognized by any body of theologians. Fortunately, the scriptures do not require me to get a doctorate degree or the receive the blessings of theologians or a religious institution. I have nothing against people attending a seminary, for example my brother has a doctorate degree from a seminary.

 

Why is it that something which you call a "false" teaching is often a cornerstone of orthodoxy for some other Christian group?

 The cornerstone of the Christian faith is Christ.

Jesus the Anointed. For it says in the words of the prophet Isaiah,

See here—I am laying in Zion a stone,

    a cornerstone, chosen and precious;

~ 1 Peter 2:6

 

Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith

In his book, “Unmasking the Cults” – which addresses cults of Christianity (as defined by theology), Dr. Alan W. Gomes writes:

Central doctrines of the Christian faith are those doctrines that make the Christian faith Christian and not something else.

The meaning of the expression "Christian faith" is not like a wax nose, which can be twisted to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content (Jude 3)

Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.

Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).

Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.

Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree.

Peripheral (i.e. non-essential) doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) or about the timing of the rapture and still go to heaven, but one cannot deny salvation by grace or the deity of Christ (John 8:24) and be saved.

All Christian denominations — whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant — agree on the essential core. The relatively minor disagreements between genuinely Christian denominations, then, cannot be used to argue that there is no objectively recognized core of fundamental doctrine which constitutes the Christian faith.

– Source: Source: Alan Gomes, Cult: A Theological Definition

 

 

 

Please tell us... I'm sure we here at Ex-C would LOVE to know for sure that we have a completely legitimate representative of Christianity as a contributing member here.

It would help us understand things so much more clearly if we knew that one of the Christians here was recognized as an actual expert authority - someone who could speak definitively about matters of the Christian religion.

 

I don’t consider myself an expert.  I do not claim to KNOW EVERYTHING or UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING in the scriptures. During my time here, I have stated when I did not know what a verse meant. I do my best to note when my comments are my opinion and not something definitely taught in scripture.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, buffettphan said:

IH, Why do you use a gigantic font all the time? 

 

Sorry, I'm using word doc. and working with a big screen.

Seems, it too late to edit. Should I repost? 

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12 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

 

Sorry, I'm using word doc. and working with a big screen.

Seems, it too late to edit. Should I repost? 

"Do what thou will, shall be the whole of the law"

 

Alister Crowley.

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IH: Concerning the scriptures, the scriptures warns of false teaching and tells us to search the scriptures to see if what they say is true. The scripture is the authority. So, I guess you could say exercising this skill of searching and studying the scriptures on these issues, qualifies a believer to make a judgement on teachings that do not align with scripture.

 

...

 

After searching many scriptures I have determined the bible to be false. Since it is false it is not an authority.

 

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IH: All Christian denominations — whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant — agree on the essential core. The relatively minor disagreements between genuinely Christian denominations, then, cannot be used to argue that there is no objectively recognized core of fundamental doctrine which constitutes the Christian faith.

 

...

 

If there was a Jesus and he was involved with his believers then there would be no disagreements major or minor, at all. He would be dropping by churches reminding the pastor and congregation of the correct doctrine.

 

Because there 'are' some disagreements and Jesus is not straightening people out then there is either no Jesus, or Jesus does not care to clear up the confusion.

 

So a Christian has to manufacture a plausible story of the 'essential core tenets' being important while the 'relatively minor' disagreements are not important. It's a nice cover story for your imaginary friends who are supposedly in charge and all powerful...yet always elsewhere and mute.

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2 hours ago, ironhorse said:

So, I guess you could say exercising this skill of searching and studying the scriptures on these issues, qualifies a believer to make a judgement on teachings that do not align with scripture.

Isn't this the EXACT same method used by the guys who are wrong?  Isn't this the EXACT same thing that the false teachers do?  Doesn't this make EVERYONE qualified to make a judgement on the teachings?  Come on @ironhorse.  Tell me what makes you ANY different from the guys you claim are wrong.

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4 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

Sorry, I'm using word doc. and working with a big screen.

Seems, it too late to edit. Should I repost? 

 

Nope, no need to repost or edit.  I was just curious.  Thanks for replying.

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5 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

Concerning the scriptures, the scriptures warns of false teaching and tells us to search the scriptures to see if what they say is true.

Bang on. You've just described why the large majority here left Christianity, because we searched the scriptures and found them to be not only contradictory but false. And yes, we were believers then.

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9 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

 

I've asked this so many times... I'll even refrain from my usual swearing and ad-hominem blasts, and I'll ask nicely:

 

How are you (or how is anyone) qualified to dictate to anyone whether something is a "false teaching" or not?

Concerning the scriptures, the scriptures warns of false teaching and tells us to search the scriptures to see if what they say is true. The scripture is the authority. So, I guess you could say exercising this skill of searching and studying the scriptures on these issues, qualifies a believer to make a judgement on teachings that do not align with scripture.

 

What makes you an expert, and by which officially-recognized body of theologians have you been accredited?

I’m not recognized by any body of theologians. Fortunately, the scriptures do not require me to get a doctorate degree or the receive the blessings of theologians or a religious institution. I have nothing against people attending a seminary, for example my brother has a doctorate degree from a seminary.

 

Why is it that something which you call a "false" teaching is often a cornerstone of orthodoxy for some other Christian group?

 The cornerstone of the Christian faith is Christ.

Jesus the Anointed. For it says in the words of the prophet Isaiah,

See here—I am laying in Zion a stone,

    a cornerstone, chosen and precious;

~ 1 Peter 2:6

 

Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith

In his book, “Unmasking the Cults” – which addresses cults of Christianity (as defined by theology), Dr. Alan W. Gomes writes:

Central doctrines of the Christian faith are those doctrines that make the Christian faith Christian and not something else.

The meaning of the expression "Christian faith" is not like a wax nose, which can be twisted to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean.

The Christian faith is a definite system of beliefs with definite content (Jude 3)

Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.

Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).

Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.

Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree.

Peripheral (i.e. non-essential) doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) or about the timing of the rapture and still go to heaven, but one cannot deny salvation by grace or the deity of Christ (John 8:24) and be saved.

All Christian denominations — whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant — agree on the essential core. The relatively minor disagreements between genuinely Christian denominations, then, cannot be used to argue that there is no objectively recognized core of fundamental doctrine which constitutes the Christian faith.

– Source: Source: Alan Gomes, Cult: A Theological Definition

 

 

 

Please tell us... I'm sure we here at Ex-C would LOVE to know for sure that we have a completely legitimate representative of Christianity as a contributing member here.

It would help us understand things so much more clearly if we knew that one of the Christians here was recognized as an actual expert authority - someone who could speak definitively about matters of the Christian religion.

 

I don’t consider myself an expert.  I do not claim to KNOW EVERYTHING or UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING in the scriptures. During my time here, I have stated when I did not know what a verse meant. I do my best to note when my comments are my opinion and not something definitely taught in scripture.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So IH

When you search the Bible, who does the interpreting of your truth?

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13 hours ago, midniterider said:

IH: Concerning the scriptures, the scriptures warns of false teaching and tells us to search the scriptures to see if what they say is true. The scripture is the authority. So, I guess you could say exercising this skill of searching and studying the scriptures on these issues, qualifies a believer to make a judgement on teachings that do not align with scripture.

 

...

 

After searching many scriptures I have determined the bible to be false. Since it is false it is not an authority.

 

 

After searching many scriptures, I have determined the bible to be false. Since it is false it is not an authority.

“I have determined…” is exactly what it boils down to. After reading, studying, and whatever processes we go through in search of the truth, it is each of us to deciding for ourselves.

“I have determined” it is true.

or

“I have determined” it is false.

We must decide what we read or hear is actually the truth.

That’s it. We ultimately have to trust ourselves that our conclusion is the correct one.

 

 Bob Dylan wrote about this in his song “Trust Yourself”:

 Trust yourself

Trust yourself to know the way that will prove true in the end

Trust yourself

Trust yourself to find the path where there is no if and when

Don't trust me to show you the truth

When the truth may be only ashes and dust

If you need somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I was just thinking that Bob Dylan is the ultimate authority on preventing self deception.

 

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Ah, there are the Dylan lyrics that we all knew were coming.

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8 hours ago, ironhorse said:

 

After searching many scriptures, I have determined the bible to be false. Since it is false it is not an authority.

“I have determined…” is exactly what it boils down to. After reading, studying, and whatever processes we go through in search of the truth, it is each of us to deciding for ourselves.

“I have determined” it is true.

or

“I have determined” it is false.

We must decide what we read or hear is actually the truth.

That’s it. We ultimately have to trust ourselves that our conclusion is the correct one.

 

 Bob Dylan wrote about this in his song “Trust Yourself”:

 Trust yourself

Trust yourself to know the way that will prove true in the end

Trust yourself

Trust yourself to find the path where there is no if and when

Don't trust me to show you the truth

When the truth may be only ashes and dust

If you need somebody you can trust, trust yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the love of all that's normal, can you please make some sense.

 

2 Timothy 1:7 

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

 

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2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

@ironhorse

 

What makes you different from the guys you claim are wrong?

I dont know what @ironhorsewould reply, but I can tell you what I would have said when a Christian: I have the true holy spirit and I interpret the text with such, and that's all that matters :P

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4 hours ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

I dont know what @ironhorsewould reply, but I can tell you what I would have said when a Christian: I have the true holy spirit and I interpret the text with such, and that's all that matters :P

That is exactly what a Catholic would say.  And a Methodist.  And a Lutheran.  And a Pentecostal.  And ad infinitum. 

 

It is what a false teacher would say.  

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On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 8:22 PM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Isn't this the EXACT same method used by the guys who are wrong?  Isn't this the EXACT same thing that the false teachers do?  Doesn't this make EVERYONE qualified to make a judgement on the teachings?  Come on @ironhorse.  Tell me what makes you ANY different from the guys you claim are wrong.

 

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 3:27 AM, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That is exactly what a Catholic would say.  And a Methodist.  And a Lutheran.  And a Pentecostal.  And ad infinitum. 

 

It is what a false teacher would say.  

 

Absolutely, many make that claim.  

 So, do you trust them or trust yourself to find out what is correct or false?

I’m not pleading with anyone here to trust me.

Our decision on these matters are our own.

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, ironhorse said:

Absolutely, many make that claim.  

 So, do you trust them or trust yourself to find out what is correct or false?

I’m not pleading with anyone here to trust me.

Our decision on these matters are our own.

 

 

There is a better way.  Trust facts and logic.  Together they are much more reliable that one's own personal perception.  How can we tell the difference between fact and perception?  We use objective criteria.

 

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Nobody comes up with a religious belief on their own. Somebody tells them that this thing or that thing is the Truth. They may immediately reject that claim at face value or they may consider the possibility. If they consider the proposition they will then encounter more and more people who believe it and share how it worked for them. They will then be exposed to arguments and examples of how that belief is valid or true. Eventually they will start making their own experiences validate the belief. Typically at this point cognitive dissonance begins to filter out experiences and information that negate the premise and emphasizes anything that can be interpreted to support the now accepted belief. "I believe X and I simply can't have made a mistake. I'm no fool."

 

The way some Christian denominations work is rather insidious. They hook the new convert with stories of how Jesus did this or that for them, that Hell is real and it can be avoided only by sharing the belief, maybe some claims about Biblical prophecy coming true will be put forth, or some such approach. This routine is followed by detailed doctrinal exposition and explanation while pointing to Scripture for support. After indoctrination, the newbie is told to read the Bible himself and see that the interpretations of that church are indeed correct; you can see it for yourself. Of course you will see it as they do at that point of your indoctrination and think you came to those conclusions with your own understanding and interpretation of Scripture. Amazing!

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1 hour ago, ironhorse said:

 

 

Absolutely, many make that claim.  

 So, do you trust them or trust yourself to find out what is correct or false?

I’m not pleading with anyone here to trust me.

Our decision on these matters are our own.

 

According to Proverbs 3:5-6 though, we can't lean on our own understanding. If you can't trust your own so-described 'faulty reasoning' then how do you know that your interpretation of doctrine is correct?

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22 hours ago, austere said:

According to Proverbs 3:5-6 though, we can't lean on our own understanding. If you can't trust your own so-described 'faulty reasoning' then how do you know that your interpretation of doctrine is correct?

 

 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart

    and lean not on your own understanding;

in all your ways submit to him,

    and he will make your paths straight.

~ Proverbs 3:5-6 (NIV)

 

According to Proverbs 3:5-6 though, we can't lean on our own understanding. If you can't trust your own so-described 'faulty reasoning' then how do you know that your interpretation of doctrine is correct?

 

To understand God, I cannot think what God should be like or what God should do. I cannot cherry pick the scriptures to make God conform to my ideas or inventions.

I had to trust God. I trust God in what I can understand. I trust God in the scriptures and the mysteries, I do not understand.

How do I know my interpretations correct?

I try to follow the instructions given in the Bible.

 

 Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

~ Acts 17:11 (NIV)

 

 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

~ 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)

 

 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

~ 1 John 4:1 (NIV)

 

My decision to trust in Christ was not made in a bubble. I have decided from what I see and know of the universe is that it shouts of intelligent design. I believe there is a God. From my reading of other religions and atheism, I have decided the God and message presented in the scriptures is true.

I would add that rejection of God and Bible is also not made in a bubble. The homepage of EX-christian.net has dozens of books, articles, and testimony claiming Christianity is false. Many people searching this site for answers will use these materials and comments like these to aide in their final decision. I have no problem with any person having open access to opposing views. Like I said, I need to read other viewpoints.

 As I have said before, in the end we must, weigh all this, and trust ourselves to make the correct decision.

 

 

 

 

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So it is official.  According to the Bible, Ironhorse has been spreading a false teaching.  

 

Proverbs 3:5-6 clearly states that the message of Bob Dylan is wrong.  Ironhorse, are you going to repent?

 

 

 

 

Edit:

Just kidding Ironhorse.  I get that it's impossible to follow the Bible because the Bible contradicts itself.  The Old and New Testaments represent different religions.  You are trying your best but there is no way to make it work.

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