quinntar Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Let's all do what Christians do and debate (Thump) each other with our personal ex-beliefs. I'll begin a topic and see where it goes (Christians are welcome) I believe the purpose of existence (This universe) is primarily to learn about relationships. Looking at the the evidence of macro and micro evolution I believe that all organic organisms are subject to chemical relationships. Take for instance the sun, the sun is a massive chemical factory. Each type of chemical is impacting and sustaining what we see as the sun today, this I believe is a "Relationship" of chemicals. Take food for instance, when organic life eats food the chemical composition of the food breaks down and effects the whole organism, again this is a "Relationships" because it shows how one chemical relates to another. I say this because essentially we are all made up of chemicals and we live by absorbing other chemicals, and each chemical reacts and effects the organic life that is absorbing those chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 21, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted February 21, 2018 Well, actually, the sun is made up of primarily hydrogen and helium, not "each type of chemical". There are other chemicals involved, to wit: carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen, at much lower percentages. Not that this would detract from the overall premise that there is a "relationship" of sorts occurring. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/53-our-solar-system/the-sun/composition/202-what-elements-make-up-the-sun-beginner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted February 21, 2018 Moderator Share Posted February 21, 2018 I don't believe the universe has a purpose. I would posit that because there are relationships doesn't mean that there is a purpose to them... depending on how you are defining purpose. Are you talking about an overarching purpose? Humans have this habit of assigning purpose to things when there is none. For example you could ask what is the purpose of a cloud? To hold water. But no, the cloud has no purpose - it simply holds water due to (and I bring your premise in here) the relationships of the water cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 35 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Well, actually, the sun is made up of primarily hydrogen and helium, not "each type of chemical". There are other chemicals involved, to wit: carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen, at much lower percentages. Not that this would detract from the overall premise that there is a "relationship" of sorts occurring. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/53-our-solar-system/the-sun/composition/202-what-elements-make-up-the-sun-beginner No I know it is not made up of all available chemicals, but it is made of certain chemicals, those particular chemicals are arranged for it to be a sun. Like your body is made up of certain chemicals that make a body, water has it's chemicals and so on and so on. The "Relationship" I am suggesting is how each chemical body effects other bodies. For instance a great deal of other chemical bodies need sunlight, that sunlight effects how those bodies function. Photo Synthesis for instance is very important for a great deal of organic bodies. This is the "Relationship" I am talking about, that one thing is dependent on another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 21, 2018 Author Share Posted February 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: I don't believe the universe has a purpose. I would posit that because there are relationships doesn't mean that there is a purpose to them... depending on how you are defining purpose. Are you talking about an overarching purpose? Humans have this habit of assigning purpose to things when there is none. For example you could ask what is the purpose of a cloud? To hold water. But no, the cloud has no purpose - it simply holds water due to (and I bring your premise in here) the relationships of the water cycle. Yes, I am talking about the evident reason why the universe is the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 It seems to me like you are trying to ask (and answer?) the question "why do chemicals react/behave in the ways that they do?". I think this is the wrong question. Science isn't concerned with why these things happen. It just describes how they happen. The notion that there is a deeper purpose to these things is fatuous, in my opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, disillusioned said: It seems to me like you are trying to ask (and answer?) the question "why do chemicals react/behave in the ways that they do?". I think this is the wrong question. Science isn't concerned with why these things happen. It just describes how they happen. The notion that there is a deeper purpose to these things is fatuous, in my opinion. I know Christians have coined the phrase " Relationship " but this belief is not found in the Bible. If Christian's really believed that life was about a relationship, everything and everyone would matter. Chemicals are so arranged to give rise to complex and unique bodies, even a rock has it's own body. If I pick up that rock and throw it into a body of water, a whole heap of reactions occur. Then a "Relationship" is initiated between the rock, my body, the air, the water, and the duck sitting in the reaction zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 54 minutes ago, theanticrash said: I know Christians have coined the phrase " Relationship " but this belief is not found in the Bible. If Christian's really believed that life was about a relationship, everything and everyone would matter. Chemicals are so arranged to give rise to complex and unique bodies, even a rock has it's own body. If I pick up that rock and throw it into a body of water, a whole heap of reactions occur. Then a "Relationship" is initiated between the rock, my body, the air, the water, and the duck sitting in the reaction zone. Yes, you can define "relationship" in this way. I have a relationship with my breakfast as well, in this sense. This is not at all a strange contention. But what does it have to do with purpose? Your original contention was that the purpose of life is to learn about relationships. On what is this claim based? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, disillusioned said: Yes, you can define "relationship" in this way. I have a relationship with my breakfast as well, in this sense. This is not at all a strange contention. But what does it have to do with purpose? Your original contention was that the purpose of life is to learn about relationships. On what is this claim based? You're right to say you have a relationship with your breakfast, it effects your taste buds, mood, body, and other thing's. I say life is primarily a relationship because we are learning by a chemical experience. If I poured salt on my breakfast instead of sugar, I would have a bad experience and learn that's not the correct relationship between the food and me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 8 hours ago, theanticrash said: You're right to say you have a relationship with your breakfast, it effects your taste buds, mood, body, and other thing's. I say life is primarily a relationship because we are learning by a chemical experience. If I poured salt on my breakfast instead of sugar, I would have a bad experience and learn that's not the correct relationship between the food and me. I agree. But what does this have to do with purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 54 minutes ago, disillusioned said: I agree. But what does this have to do with purpose? Why do you think we are living inside a massive relationship factory? I've thought about this for years. All I can come up with is that the reason we are here is to taste (Experience) a myriad of possible relationships, so it can be determined for later what type of relationship we fit into. It's not a test, the universe is a open and free relationship simulator, and this concept helps me put this universe in some sort of context. Actually these ideas formed after I left Christianity and went looking for alternative ideas, but nothing helped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 You can have that if you want it, but it is not necessary. The question of purpose pre-supposes that there is someone or something sentient behind the universe. Things only matter if they matter to someone. So you are basically just assuming that the universe has a purpose, and the asserting that it has to do with relationships. I, on the other hand, think that things only matter inasmuch as they matter to us. I don't think the universe has a purpose, per se. In other words, I accept that we can frame the universe in terms of the relationships between different objects. But I don't think this means that the relationships are supposed to be the way they are. The way things are is just the way they are. There is no need to speak of purpose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, disillusioned said: You can have that if you want it, but it is not necessary. The question of purpose pre-supposes that there is someone or something sentient behind the universe. Things only matter if they matter to someone. So you are basically just assuming that the universe has a purpose, and the asserting that it has to do with relationships. I, on the other hand, think that things only matter inasmuch as they matter to us. I don't think the universe has a purpose, per se. In other words, I accept that we can frame the universe in terms of the relationships between different objects. But I don't think this means that the relationships are supposed to be the way they are. The way things are is just the way they are. There is no need to speak of purpose. You are right, it does open up the possibility of some type of prime mover, but that's alright for me. I don't mind thinking of possible creator types. I see it this way, either we will have the answer one day or we won't. It has to be one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 5 hours ago, theanticrash said: You are right, it does open up the possibility of some type of prime mover, but that's alright for me. I don't mind thinking of possible creator types. I see it this way, either we will have the answer one day or we won't. It has to be one or the other. The problem that I see is not that this opens up the possibility of a prime mover, but rather that it just assumes one. I have no problem in principle with deism. But what had been presented here is not an argument for it; it's just, basically, a faith claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 2 hours ago, disillusioned said: The problem that I see is not that this opens up the possibility of a prime mover, but rather that it just assumes one. I have no problem in principle with deism. But what had been presented here is not an argument for it; it's just, basically, a faith claim. I see it more as a philosophy, one I will continue to work on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 2 hours ago, theanticrash said: I see it more as a philosophy, one I will continue to work on. That's fair enough. But I'm wondering if you are hoping to start from a point of assuming that there is a purpose to the universe, or to start somewhere else and try to demonstrate that there is good reason to think that the universe has a purpose. These are two very different philosophical positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 25, 2018 Author Share Posted February 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, disillusioned said: That's fair enough. But I'm wondering if you are hoping to start from a point of assuming that there is a purpose to the universe, or to start somewhere else and try to demonstrate that there is good reason to think that the universe has a purpose. These are two very different philosophical positions. Trust me, I don't know enough, but you can explain that to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 On 25/02/2018 at 6:32 PM, theanticrash said: Trust me, I don't know enough, but you can explain that to me. In general, when you are trying to outline a philosophy, you have to start with basic assumptions. From these assumptions, you try to reason your way to other statements. If you want to go forward with this, you should probably put some thought into where you are starting from, and where you are trying to get to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 27, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted February 27, 2018 It would seem that in all of nature, only humans, and only recently at that, believe they must have some sort of purpose. Obviously everything serves some sort of purpose, but I assume we are talking about having a reason to be and to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted February 27, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted February 27, 2018 I have a purpose. I have a job that pays me money. That money allows me to put gas in my truck so that I can keep doing my job. Continuing to do my job allows me to put some money by. I can then use that money to buy food. Once the food is bought, I need electricity, water, and gas in order to properly and safely store and prepare the food. This also is provided through gainful employment. Once the food is prepared, I derive pleasure out of eating it. The end result of my job, my automobile, my financial responsibility, my obligations to various public utilities, and the simple pleasure of tucking in to a decent meal while smuggly thinking of the starving children in Africa--the final product of all of these relationships--is the ability to take a shit. My purpose is to shit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted February 27, 2018 Author Share Posted February 27, 2018 59 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I have a purpose. I have a job that pays me money. That money allows me to put gas in my truck so that I can keep doing my job. Continuing to do my job allows me to put some money by. I can then use that money to buy food. Once the food is bought, I need electricity, water, and gas in order to properly and safely store and prepare the food. This also is provided through gainful employment. Once the food is prepared, I derive pleasure out of eating it. The end result of my job, my automobile, my financial responsibility, my obligations to various public utilities, and the simple pleasure of tucking in to a decent meal while snuggly thinking of the starving children in Africa--the final product of all of these relationships--is the ability to take a shit. My purpose is to shit. Ha ha ha, smart guy. You have no idea how true that is for someone who had IBS. My whole life used to be about reaching a toilet in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 5 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: I have a purpose. I have a job that pays me money. That money allows me to put gas in my truck so that I can keep doing my job. Continuing to do my job allows me to put some money by. I can then use that money to buy food. Once the food is bought, I need electricity, water, and gas in order to properly and safely store and prepare the food. This also is provided through gainful employment. Once the food is prepared, I derive pleasure out of eating it. The end result of my job, my automobile, my financial responsibility, my obligations to various public utilities, and the simple pleasure of tucking in to a decent meal while snuggly thinking of the starving children in Africa--the final product of all of these relationships--is the ability to take a shit. My purpose is to shit. See, that is why the E. coli God created people. We are the perfect environment designed to perfectly nurture E. coli. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantheory Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 On 2/20/2018 at 12:44 PM, theanticrash said: Let's all do what Christians do and debate (Thump) each other with our personal ex-beliefs. I'll begin a topic and see where it goes (Christians are welcome) I believe the purpose of existence (This universe) is primarily to learn about relationships. Looking at the the evidence of macro and micro evolution I believe that all organic organisms are subject to chemical relationships. Take for instance the sun, the sun is a massive chemical factory. Each type of chemical is impacting and sustaining what we see as the sun today, this I believe is a "Relationship" of chemicals................. I will second or third the comment that the universe has no purpose, neither does humanity. Yes, life and organic chemistry can fit together in symbiotic relationships, if not such entities would likely become extinct. Chemicals are built from atoms, more complex atoms are progressively built from the simplest atom hydrogen. Lighter atoms progressively fuse together to eventually become the largest, heaviest atoms. Some atoms combine with others to become molecules such as H2O, but, believe it or not, there is no purpose to the universe or any part of it according to mainstream science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 2, 2018 Super Moderator Share Posted March 2, 2018 In all sincerity, I think that when you start trying to look for "relationships", you are only a step or two away from concluding that everything has a purpose; and that will eventually lead you to conclude that everything happens for a reason. The end result of that line of thinking is that there must be a reason for all of those reasons: ergo god. This line of thought isn't necessarily dangerous, in and of itself. It's just unproductive due to the faulty assumptions upon which it is built. Everything happens as the result of a cause; but that is different than happening for a reason. If my son gets killed in a car crash, there may be myriad causes for the circumstance of his demise. But the only reason or purpose his death might have is that which I give it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinntar Posted March 6, 2018 Author Share Posted March 6, 2018 On 02/03/2018 at 5:39 AM, pantheory said: I will second or third the comment that the universe has no purpose, neither does humanity. Yes, life and organic chemistry can fit together in symbiotic relationships, if not such entities would likely become extinct. Chemicals are built from atoms, more complex atoms are progressively built from the simplest atom hydrogen. Lighter atoms progressively fuse together to eventually become the largest, heaviest atoms. Some atoms combine with others to become molecules such as H2O, but, believe it or not, there is no purpose to the universe or any part of it according to mainstream science. How do things without purpose come into being? How do thing's combine in a unique fashion to give rise to a sophisticated "Relationship" without giving rise to meaning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now