Morality

[Learnagain]

I will attempt to articulate this question I'm having. It has to do with morality. Much of what the secular world deems moral I still don't agree with even without God. For example I think abortion is psychologically damaging and know several women who are messed up from it. I think transgender is a mental illness, and I am deeply distressed about how we are dealing with it normalizing it and causing overall long-term psychological harm. I don't think psyche meds are the most effective method for dealing with things. I hate that I spoke with a counselor and with 9 questions he wanted to change my brain chemistry for depression, and yet transgender are no longer treated like a mental illness when there is no physiological proof this is true just thoughts.  I'm afraid that the fruit of my leavig God will end up making me overly liberal, and ignorant of real issues that affect people. Ive always loved people but hate seeing them suffer. If they don't consider mental illness as a potential cause how do they know it's not the case? 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I will attempt to articulate this question I'm having. It has to do with morality. Much of what the secular world deems moral I still don't agree with even without God. For example I think abortion is psychologically damaging and know several women who are messed up from it. I think transgender is a mental illness, and I am deeply distressed about how we are dealing with it normalizing it and causing overall long-term psychological harm. I don't think psyche meds are the most effective method for dealing with things. I hate that I spoke with a counselor and with 9 questions he wanted to change my brain chemistry for depression, and yet transgender are no longer treated like a mental illness when there is no physiological proof this is true just thoughts.  I'm afraid that the fruit of my leavig God will end up making me overly liberal, and ignorant of real issues that affect people. Ive always loved people but hate seeing them suffer. If they don't consider mental illness as a potential cause how do they know it's not the case? 

In my opinion, to me it appears that the god complex still has a hold on your mind. Let me explain. You do realize these are just your opinions? One should always be open to learning and doing research on issues and reading widely, and then forming opinions on them. When I left religion, I also realized that I had to scrap the "I think...therefore it's true" mode of thought. That had kept me in Christianity for the rest of my life. I thought it was the one true religion, therefore, I stayed with it. Any opinions I hold nowadays are open to change, I think that's the best way to grow. So, instead of the "I think" at the beginning of all these phrases, why don't you just view them as questions, and be curious, look at the issues from several perspectives, and then decide what your opinion is?

 

Why the fear of liberalism? Were you taught that liberalism is bad in the church? If you think independently on issues without fearing labels, you'll realize you may agree with liberals on some issues and conservatives on another.

[Learnagain]

46 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

In my opinion, to me it appears that the god complex still has a hold on your mind. Let me explain. You do realize these are just your opinions? One should always be open to learning and doing research on issues and reading widely, and then forming opinions on them. When I left religion, I also realized that I had to scrap the "I think...therefore it's true" mode of thought. That had kept me in Christianity for the rest of my life. I thought it was the one true religion, therefore, I stayed with it. Any opinions I hold nowadays are open to change, I think that's the best way to grow. So, instead of the "I think" at the beginning of all these phrases, why don't you just view them as questions, and be curious, look at the issues from several perspectives, and then decide what your opinion is?

 

Why the fear of liberalism? Were you taught that liberalism is bad in the church? If you think independently on issues without fearing labels, you'll realize you may agree with liberals on some issues and conservatives on another.

I'm not arrogantly saying I think therefore it is. And where is this elusive research youre talking about? Assuming that I have attempted to find evidence, which I have. I have a bachelor's in science and I am an RN.  I said I saw a couselor, I was open to hearing his opinion and then he basically said he does want to talk,  I was asked 9 questions and offered drugs to alter my brain chemistry, why is gender dysmorphia starting to become normalized, and not considered a mental illness? I'm very curious about this. Point me to a peer reviewed study. Point me to the evidence that the brain chemistry is male but the person is born female? Actual tests not the thoughts of am person, because then you should listen to me about religion based on my experience. It's funny when I ask questions, but not ones that match current sociological and political trends I am being opinionated. I love science now please show me evidence that I'm wrong. Me saying "I think" is a polite way of saying challenge me because I do research. Thanks for your response.

[Geezer]

I am not aware that leaving Christianity requires choosing any political party or mandates any particular moral position on any designed  social issue.  It seems none believers have their favorites, when it comes to these sort of issues. Unlike Christianity there is no requirement that one must follow the herd  or embrace group thinking. 

 

Your post seems to imply you are not completely over the God virus, and that's okay. The healing process often takes years. And it doesn't require all of your thinking & beliefs have to change all at once. Deprogramming takes time and there are probably some things that you will never change your mind about. 

 

Non-believers don't always agree on social & political issues. My political views still tend to be conservative but my social views have become decidedly liberal. 

[mymistake]

4 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I'm afraid that the fruit of my leavig God will end up making me overly liberal, and ignorant of real issues that affect people.

 

Why would leaving God make you ignorant?

 

4 hours ago, Learnagain said:

Ive always loved people but hate seeing them suffer.

 

 

And yet Christians always make excuses for why God won't help until God decided to "call them home".  That one was hard for me to accept.  I wanted to see God heal people but the answer was always "no".

 

 

Back when I was a Christian I was a fanatic Republican conservative.  When I lost my faith I choose to revisit my political views with fresh eyes.  I discovered that all of my political views, on every single issue, were driven by my faith that the Bible is the word of God.  I could no longer think of a reason to hate gay people.  I couldn't think of any valid reason to discriminate against transgendered people.   On down the line I went and I changed my views if I could not justify them anymore.

 

[Learnagain]

7 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

Why would leaving God make you ignorant?

 

 

 

And yet Christians always make excuses for why God won't help until God decided to "call them home".  That one was hard for me to accept.  I wanted to see God heal people but the answer was always "no".

 

 

Back when I was a Christian I was a fanatic Republican conservative.  When I lost my faith I choose to revisit my political views with fresh eyes.  I discovered that all of my political views, on every single issue, were driven by my faith that the Bible is the word of God.  I could no longer think of a reason to hate gay people.  I couldn't think of any valid reason to discriminate against transgendered people.   On down the line I went and I changed my views if I could not justify them anymore.

 

Thanks for your response. I don think any person is worthless ever. I love people even before leaving christianity. It's not dogma that made me leave but not enough love. So while I love a transgender person and definitely do not descriminate against anyone, I struggle to ever call it normal and not needing treatment. I think to solve real problems we need to be doers not just talkers in Ivory towers. I am very passionate about helping people, but not enabling. Also I don't find a need to ascribe to a certain political stance either. I was radical about love. It is human nature to help each other if is see my brother suffering and he doesn't know why, I am going to share possible solutions even though I may be wrong, just like about my body else.

[sdelsolray]

2 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I'm not arrogantly saying I think therefore it is. And where is this elusive research youre talking about? Assuming that I have attempted to find evidence, which I have. I have a bachelor's in science and I am an RN.  I said I saw a couselor, I was open to hearing his opinion and then he basically said he does want to talk,  I was asked 9 questions and offered drugs to alter my brain chemistry, why is gender dysmorphia starting to become normalized, and not considered a mental illness? I'm very curious about this. Point me to a peer reviewed study. Point me to the evidence that the brain chemistry is male but the person is born female? Actual tests not the thoughts of am person, because then you should listen to me about religion based on my experience. It's funny when I ask questions, but not ones that match current sociological and political trends I am being opinionated. I love science now please show me evidence that I'm wrong. Me saying "I think" is a polite way of saying challenge me because I do research. Thanks for your response.

 

You are the one making the claim that gender dysphoria is a "mental illness".  You have the burden of proof/evidence/persuasion to support that claim.

 

Your comparison of one anecdotal experience with depression and gender dysphoria in general is a non-sequitur.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Learnagain said:

So while I love a transgender person and definitely do not descriminate against anyone, I struggle to ever call it normal and not needing treatment. I think to solve real problems we need to be doers not just talkers in Ivory towers. I am very passionate about helping people, but not enabling.

Not enabling what? And I dislike when conversation always gets turned into disdain for ivory towers. As if people are unaware that those in academia are often the ones out there doing the research, etc.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I'm not arrogantly saying I think therefore it is. And where is this elusive research youre talking about? Assuming that I have attempted to find evidence, which I have. I have a bachelor's in science and I am an RN.  I said I saw a couselor, I was open to hearing his opinion and then he basically said he does want to talk,  I was asked 9 questions and offered drugs to alter my brain chemistry, why is gender dysmorphia starting to become normalized, and not considered a mental illness? I'm very curious about this. Point me to a peer reviewed study. Point me to the evidence that the brain chemistry is male but the person is born female? Actual tests not the thoughts of am person, because then you should listen to me about religion based on my experience. It's funny when I ask questions, but not ones that match current sociological and political trends I am being opinionated. I love science now please show me evidence that I'm wrong. Me saying "I think" is a polite way of saying challenge me because I do research. Thanks for your response.

First off, why should we treat things on the basis that they're a mental illness? There are health conditions historically that were treated as mental illness that were nothing such, and those poor people were locked up and drugged for the rest of their lives and their freedom and rights were taken away from them. Stigmatizing as mental illness is very dangerous. It's possible societal norms and stigma have prevented most people from even coming out about how they felt about gender, and now they feel safer to do so. 

[mymistake]

4 hours ago, Learnagain said:

So while I love a transgender person and definitely do not descriminate against anyone, I struggle to ever call it normal and not needing treatment. I think to solve real problems we need to be doers not just talkers in Ivory towers. I am very passionate about helping people, but not enabling. Also I don't find a need to ascribe to a certain political stance either. I was radical about love. It is human nature to help each other if is see my brother suffering and he doesn't know why, I am going to share possible solutions even though I may be wrong, just like about my body else.

 

 

Shouldn't we let the doctors who have specialized in mental health decide how to run their specialty?  They are the experts, after all.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Shouldn't we let the doctors who have specialized in mental health decide how to run their specialty?  They are the experts, after all.

I agree with this, but I've become cautious about drs too. In some countries conditions like CFS are still determined to be psychiatric disorders and psychiatrists have the power to take the patients away from the care of their family and institutionalize them. Speaking as someone who has a chronic condition now recognized by the medical profession (but it took us a long time to get there) who was initially told it was all in my head, this is pretty horrible treatment. Drs have a lot of power. Luckily in my case we knew it had a genetic link and a family member stepped in to deal with my dr, who hadnt even considered the possibility.

[Learnagain]

2 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

Shouldn't we let the doctors who have specialized in mental health decide how to run their specialty?  They are the experts, after all.

This is like saying shouldn't we listen to pastors cause after all its their specialty? When we both know they don't know everything and there are good and bad Dr's. So why do you worship them. I work with drs every day

[Learnagain]

8 hours ago, Geezer said:

I am not aware that leaving Christianity requires choosing any political party or mandates any particular moral position on any designed  social issue.  It seems none believers have their favorites, when it comes to these sort of issues. Unlike Christianity there is no requirement that one must follow the herd  or embrace group thinking. 

 

Your post seems to imply you are not completely over the God virus, and that's okay. The healing process often takes years. And it doesn't require all of your thinking & beliefs have to change all at once. Deprogramming takes time and there are probably some things that you will never change your mind about. 

 

Non-believers don't always agree on social & political issues. My political views still tend to be conservative but my social views have become decidedly liberal. 

That's good some non believers don't follow the herd the heard, because most do and stop thinking.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Learnagain said:

That's good some non believers don't follow the herd the heard, because most do and stop thinking.

Most non believers follow the herd and stop thinking? I'm going to disagree with that. There are plenty of thinking non believers on this site for example. If you browse around you'll see that plenty of them are capable of using critical thinking skills. 

[Learnagain]

57 minutes ago, TruthSeeker0 said:

Most non believers follow the herd and stop thinking? I'm going to disagree with that. There are plenty of thinking non believers on this site for example. If you browse around you'll see that plenty of them are capable of using critical thinking skills. 

I agree with you about this site, but does this mean that this is the majority here on this site?

[disillusioned]

2 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I agree with you about this site, but does this mean that this is the majority here on this site?

 

Do you mean to ask if the majority here are critical thinkers? If so, I'd have to say "yes".

 

I've met and interacted with many of the smartest people I know here on this site. I often find myself disagreeing with my fellow members here, and that's fine. It's good. We push each other. We try to find our way forward. No has all the answers. For me, that's a central realisation of ex-Christianity. So, if we want to go forward, we have to keep thinking.

 

Stick around. Read some more threads, and get involved in some more discussions. Then decide for yourself if we're critical thinkers or not.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

I often find myself disagreeing with my fellow members here, and that's fine. It's good. We push each other. We try to find our way forward. No has all the answers. For me, that's a central realisation or ex-Christianity. So, if we want to go forward, we have to keep thinking.

 

Yup, I have come to appreciate the diversity of views here. 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Learnagain said:

I agree with you about this site, but does this mean that this is the majority here on this site?

Well why not try find some stats? Its a good idea instead of just stating that most follow a herd and don't think. I'd ask you to consider one thing: people who throw away their whole belief system rarely do so without thinking, considering the serious consequences it results in for many of them. For a lot of them it's a  process that lasts years of consideration. I'd argue that makes them pretty thinking people. 

[mymistake]

17 hours ago, Learnagain said:

This is like saying shouldn't we listen to pastors cause after all its their specialty? When we both know they don't know everything and there are good and bad Dr's. So why do you worship them. I work with drs every day

 

Uh . . .no.  Pastors are con men who sell a product that does not exist.  Doctors have been put through rigorous testing of specialized empirical science.  The ones who can't pass get cut.  Those who complete the program are recognized as experts by their peers.  This is not worship.  I am recognizing that I would have to put in a decade of full time work before I could hope to catch up with where a doctor is now.  They have already done the work which is why we ask them for their opinion.

 

17 hours ago, Learnagain said:

That's good some non believers don't follow the herd the heard, because most do and stop thinking.

 

16 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I agree with you about this site, but does this mean that this is the majority here on this site?

 

 

We have all kind of people joining our community.  Many of them are developing their freethinking skills.  The science vs. religion section is a treasure trove.  But you can find meaningful, thought provoking discussions in most sections.

 

 

 

[RealityCheck]

14 hours ago, Learnagain said:

I'm afraid that the fruit of my leavig God will end up making me overly liberal, and ignorant of real issues that affect people. 

Liberalism can be as much a religion as Christianity itself.  This is something that I discovered after spending sufficient times around atheist circles.  However, being overly liberal doesn't mean that you will suddenly be ignorant towards other people's issues.  My advice regarding that is to listen to all viewpoints from every possible side and decide for yourself.  Don't fall into the trap of accepting a label either.  I don't see myself as atheist, conservative, liberal, etc.  My mind is sovereign and free from all group driven agendas.  Do not fall for pleas to your emotions.

As for morality in itself?  I believe morality is a set of behaviors that we evolved to keep us cohesive as a social species.  If we casually committed murder, we wouldn't be viable as a species for very long for example.

[ContraBardus]

There are several conservatives on these boards.

 

You don't have to become a liberal without God.

 

I'm not really liberal myself, though I'm also not a right wing conservative. I don't view politics as a team sport. I generally try to choose the lesser evil without consideration to party affiliations.

 

A lot of people "choose a side" in politics so they don't have to keep up with things. It's a lazy option for many. They just pick a favorite color and team and vote down the line without ever bothering to consider the platform of candidates or whether what they are doing is in their interests.

 

Regarding morality, it is important to understand the concept of the lesser evil.

 

Yes, abortion can cause distress and regret in some women, but being forced into having a baby can ruin the lives of many women as well. There is no good answer, but I see no reason legal abortions aren't the lesser evil.

 

I don't think legalizing all drugs is "good". However, it is by far the lesser evil. The "war on drugs" is costly in more than one way, ineffective, and drugs should be treated as a healthcare issue, not a criminal one. We literally created the black market, which drives violence, makes them less safe, and overall does a lot more harm than good.

 

Understanding that sometimes there is no good option helps with navigating morality in social issues like abortion and drugs.

 

Plus, a lack of the belief that a lack of morality can be "absolved" by God is a scary thought to some. It means they have to take personal responsibility for their own flaws and choices.

 

I also wonder how many of those "messed up" women are "messed up" due to being shamed or otherwise made to feel guilty by others for their choice. This includes religion and doesn't necessarily have to be directed at them individually. I suspect hearing about how awful and evil it is when they go to church or by other people rather than being supported and treated with dignity for making a difficult choice probably has something to do with it.

 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, ContraBardus said:

I also wonder how many of those "messed up" women are "messed up" due to being shamed or otherwise made to feel guilty by others for their choice. This includes religion and doesn't necessarily have to be directed at them individually. I suspect hearing about how awful and evil it is when they go to church or by other people rather than being supported and treated with dignity for making a difficult choice probably has something to do with it.

Excellent point.

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, RealityCheck said:

Liberalism can be as much a religion as Christianity itself.   

 

Yes, anything can be like a religion if it is done with a dogmatic mindset.  If we start with the desired conclusion and then go looking for excuses to justify that conclusion we will go astray.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Learnagain, there are some good thoughts expressed above.  I would add, the terms liberal and conservative have been contaminated.  Look them up in the dictionary and see which one you would rather be.   Or perhaps we need to be a little of both.   There are times we need to conserve, and times we need to look outside the box.  Don't fall into the trap of polarizing every issue.  

 

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

On 2/24/2018 at 4:36 AM, Learnagain said:

I think abortion is psychologically damaging and know several women who are messed up from it.

 

That is a complex issue and there is a broad range of experiences that women go through. As ContraBardus mentioned, some of the damage is likely coming from others badgering them. Regardless, it's not a one-size-fits-all issue, which is why women should be able to choose what is best for their own situation. Being pro-choice is not the same thing as pushing for abortions. It's simply leaving the decision in the hands of the one who's pregnant.

 

On 2/24/2018 at 4:36 AM, Learnagain said:

I think transgender is a mental illness, and I am deeply distressed about how we are dealing with it normalizing it and causing overall long-term psychological harm. I don't think psyche meds are the most effective method for dealing with things. I hate that I spoke with a counselor and with 9 questions he wanted to change my brain chemistry for depression, and yet transgender are no longer treated like a mental illness when there is no physiological proof this is true just thoughts.

 

This is what I really wanted to address here because I have personal experience with this issue. It is also a complex issue and I can certainly see how it's difficult for some people to wrap their heads around it. As the father of a transgender child, though, I can say with firsthand knowledge that you are simply wrong to label it a "mental illness." It's just reality. If you would like for me to post his story here, I can do so if you ask.

 

Everyone has a gender identity, and most of us are fortunate enough to have been born with the body that matches our identity. Not everyone is that fortunate, though. Can you imagine for a moment if you, with your male gender identity, had been born in a female body? If you had the exact same thoughts and feelings that you have now, yet your body parts were different and you had society telling you that you had to look, talk, act, think, and feel like a woman? Could you do that, given your current mindset? How would you like to be constantly badgered like that? You see, THAT is what a transgender person goes through with people who don't understand them.

 

As an RN, I'm sure you're familiar with hermaphrodites, right? Those are people who are born with both male and female body parts. Though rare, it does happen. Now, would you have a problem with those people picking the gender that suits them, despite also having the body parts that match the opposite gender? If not, then what in the world are they supposed to do? And if so, then can you not see that it's similar to transgender people? If hermaphrodites can be born with wrong body parts, through no fault of their own, then wouldn't it make sense that a similar thing can happen with transgenders?

 

I think it's great that our society has come a long way with accepting transgenders. Nobody needs to be trashed by society for simply being who they are. I will throw in one caveat here, though. There are evidently some circles where some may want to jump on a transgender bandwagon even though they don't have gender dysphoria. Even my own transgender child doesn't see them as actually transgender. However, there are many who really have been born with the wrong body parts, and we should not be denying their civil rights to be who they genuinely are.

 

It's really not a choice, and it's not something that you can change. It simply is what it is. My own child's licensed therapist has been dealing with this specialty for many years, and she told us that she has never had a single patient whom she referred to an endocrinologist ever come back regretting it.

 

I would recommend that you refrain from judging people from the outside. If possible, get to know a few transgender people yourself so you can see what they actually go through.

 

By the way, welcome to the board and congratulations on breaking free from religion. I hope you can also break free from the stereotypes and oversimplifications that come from religion. I wish you the best as you try to move forward and work through some complex issues.