austere

The role of the Trinity

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I'm in a contemplative mood.

 

Christians, in this day and age, what does the doctrine of the Trinity actually accomplish? If it were taken away, would it affect your faith in some practical way?

 

Without it, God could still send his son to Earth to be the saviour... yet so many creeds and statements of faith explicitly state the belief in the Trinity is non-optional for them.

 

Historically I know this was included to combat breakaway sects during the early church days--but would it actually make a difference to what and how you believe now?

 

No hidden agenda or set-up behind this question, I just got to thinking.

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Christians need the idea of the Trinity because they need the idea of an influencing "spirit" that helps them/makes them feel, absent any actual personage in their lives who can speak real language to them.

 

If a person was raised without religion, or hadn't been taught the lingo of the Christians, they could feel feelings and "hear voices" and they would attribute them to who-knows-what influence, or they would just be considered nuts.

 

Christians NEED the "spirit" so they can justify listening to their own consciences or so they can justify adhering to group-think but calling it "following god's will".

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It's a manufactured "mystery" of the Church and did not originate in the Bible. Tertullian came up with the concept and he also admittedly borrowed from Pagan mythology with the hope that Pagans could more easily convert to a Christianity with a bit of Pagan flavor. Today's idea of a Trinity doesn't resemble the idea Tertullian had put forth, but religious tradition supersedes Scripture and history in many instances.

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When I was starting to doubt my faith in Christianity something that really got to me was trying to imagine what it will be like in heaven.  God the Father sitting on a throne.  But God the son is cool and would give everybody a hug.  But God the son is also going to sit on a throne.  Are the two thrones side by side?  And then what am I going to do with God the Holy Spirit?  Is he like a fog that floats everywhere?  Is the Holy Spirit still invisible in heaven?

 

It doesn't make much sense.

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From my standpoint, it makes sense within the story as God the Father was with them to be rejected, Jesus the Son was with them to be rejected, and now we are given a choice to reject the Spirit/Grace.....

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Now what we need is for @God to comment on this. He seems to be the supreme authority on polytheistic worship.

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7 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Now what we need is for @God to comment on this. He seems to be the supreme authority on polytheistic worship.

 

 

Unfortunately this isn't the Late Show with Stephen Colbert so God won't be visiting us any time soon.  :D

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Just now, mymistake said:

 

 

Unfortunately this isn't the Late Show with Stephen Colbert so God won't be visiting us any time soon.  :D

 

He did not to long ago. @God and I even exchanged pleasantries :D You wait, he'll pop in at some random time in the future.

 

Oh @God hear me and reveal your presence... or is that presents?  

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2 hours ago, end3 said:

From my standpoint, it makes sense within the story as God the Father was with them to be rejected, Jesus the Son was with them to be rejected, and now we are given a choice to reject the Spirit/Grace.....

Something you might have missed.

 

Numbers 23:19

19God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

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6 hours ago, L.B. said:

Christians NEED the "spirit" so they can justify listening to their own consciences or so they can justify adhering to group-think but calling it "following god's will".

And some of them need the "spirit" so that they can argue that the only true one only exists among their own group, and everybody else's "spirit" is just fake. It's really important, if the "spirit" among them is what comes up with the rules.

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On 05/03/2018 at 3:27 PM, austere said:

I'm in a contemplative mood.

 

Christians, in this day and age, what does the doctrine of the Trinity actually accomplish? If it were taken away, would it affect your faith in some practical way?

 

Without it, God could still send his son to Earth to be the saviour... yet so many creeds and statements of faith explicitly state the belief in the Trinity is non-optional for them.

 

Historically I know this was included to combat breakaway sects during the early church days--but would it actually make a difference to what and how you believe now?

 

No hidden agenda or set-up behind this question, I just got to thinking.

I think it would, If you took away Jesus from the Godhead.

 

Jesus has to be apart of the Godhead otherwise Christianity isn't Christianity.

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6 hours ago, end3 said:

From my standpoint, it makes sense within the story as God the Father was with them to be rejected, Jesus the Son was with them to be rejected, and now we are given a choice to reject the Spirit/Grace.....

 

So three strikes you're out? If they are all the same, does that really make sense?

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5 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

He did not to long ago. @God and I even exchanged pleasantries :D You wait, he'll pop in at some random time in the future.

 

Oh @God hear me and reveal your presence... or is that presents?  

 

We may have to wait until next Halloween and then get to him through the Holy Ghost. That seems to be when they show up around here.  :)

 

ETA:  Sorry, I meant Him and They.

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8 hours ago, florduh said:

It's a manufactured "mystery" of the Church and did not originate in the Bible. Tertullian came up with the concept and he also admittedly borrowed from Pagan mythology with the hope that Pagans could more easily convert to a Christianity with a bit of Pagan flavor. Today's idea of a Trinity doesn't resemble the idea Tertullian had put forth, but religious tradition supersedes Scripture and history in many instances.

 

The problem is that the Bible can support anything one wants it to say. The Oneness Pentecostals for example, don't believe in the "Trinity" the way most denominations do. IIRC, they believe in it but only as a one at a time kind of thing.

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7 hours ago, end3 said:

From my standpoint, it makes sense within the story as God the Father was with them to be rejected, Jesus the Son was with them to be rejected, and now we are given a choice to reject the Spirit/Grace.....

 

 

As an aside, when you say Grace do you mean that is God the Holy Spirit?  So you think everything good that happens or should happen is literally the Holy Spirit?

 

I'm not asking to make fun of you but rather to try to figure out what you have been telling us the last five years.

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15 hours ago, duderonomy said:

 

So three strikes you're out? If they are all the same, does that really make sense?

Yes, apparently.  Wasn't there the thing that preachers/ministers say that if God said it three times, that was significant.  Has been too long.

 

And it also is compassionate that God allows for our dichotomy.

 

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14 hours ago, mymistake said:

 

 

As an aside, when you say Grace do you mean that is God the Holy Spirit?  So you think everything good that happens or should happen is literally the Holy Spirit?

 

I'm not asking to make fun of you but rather to try to figure out what you have been telling us the last five years.

I think have we the ability and were provided a message from God on a constant basis......and perhaps we are.....that this is the Holy Spirit which provides us a means of living in a state that would be one with Jesus/God......that we would make decisions and act as they would. 

 

This same timeframe that we are in, the one of the Holy Spirit vs. the presence of Jesus or the presence of God the Father, also is a time of Grace.......that being, if we fail hearing and acting on the provided messages to become finished human beings, then Christ's grace will intercede for the shortcomings. 

 

So in a nutshell, yes, if we were perfectly connected with the Spirit,  then our actions would be good according to God's plan.

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As with all church doctrines, there are passages in the Bible that support them and others that negate them. The current concept of a Trinity evolved from the musings of a guy who lived a couple hundred years after the given date of the crucifixion. People act as if it's one of the Ten Commandments.

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19 hours ago, theanticrash said:

Something you might have missed.

 

Numbers 23:19

19God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

My theory is that in the OT, because God was present with his people, then there needed to be an absolute maintained, in order that He be with his people.  Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seemingly different manifestations yet one with God.  Is nature one with God?  Is humanity the only group not one with God?

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5 minutes ago, florduh said:

As with all church doctrines, there are passages in the Bible that support them and others that negate them. The current concept of a Trinity evolved from the musings of a guy who lived a couple hundred years after the given date of the crucifixion. People act as if it's one of the Ten Commandments.

Well, upon death I expect we will either return to worm dirt or be witness to something else.  One vote worm dirt noted.  Please dip you finger in the purple ink on the way out..

 

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39 minutes ago, end3 said:

I think have we the ability and were provided a message from God on a constant basis......and perhaps we are.....that this is the Holy Spirit which provides us a means of living in a state that would be one with Jesus/God......that we would make decisions and act as they would. 

 

This same timeframe that we are in, the one of the Holy Spirit vs. the presence of Jesus or the presence of God the Father, also is a time of Grace.......that being, if we fail hearing and acting on the provided messages to become finished human beings, then Christ's grace will intercede for the shortcomings. 

 

So in a nutshell, yes, if we were perfectly connected with the Spirit,  then our actions would be good according to God's plan.

 

I'm not going to comment further but I do thank you for answering.

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49 minutes ago, end3 said:

Well, upon death I expect we will either return to worm dirt or be witness to something else.  One vote worm dirt noted.  Please dip you finger in the purple ink on the way out..

 

Huh? We were discussing the how and why of the trinity doctrine, not what awaits us after death. I find that after death discussion useless since nobody actually knows what happens. We DO know how the doctrine of the trinity happened, though.

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1 hour ago, end3 said:

My theory is that in the OT, because God was present with his people, then there needed to be an absolute maintained, in order that He be with his people.  Jesus and the Holy Spirit are seemingly different manifestations yet one with God.  Is nature one with God?  Is humanity the only group not one with God?

How do you get around this verse?

 

Isaiah 45:5

5I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

 

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25 minutes ago, florduh said:

Huh? We were discussing the how and why of the trinity doctrine, not what awaits us after death. I find that after death discussion useless since nobody actually knows what happens. We DO know how the doctrine of the trinity happened, though.

Just saying you obviously believe your source...

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9 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

How do you get around this verse?

 

Isaiah 45:5

5I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

 

John 10:30?

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