Is hell good or bad?

[quinntar]

Christians, in your mind

 

Is hell a bad place?

 

If it is a bad place, then explain why your God has created this bad place. If it is not a bad place, then explain why he has created this good place

[Guest end3]

25 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

Christians, in your mind

 

Is hell a bad place?

 

If it is a bad place, then explain why your God has created this bad place. If it is not a bad place, then explain why he has created this good place

It's all about trust Crash.  God gives progressively easier steps to learn trust.  Hell is the what's left over for those who didn't get the message.  George Bush I, "It's bad....bad".

[quinntar]

43 minutes ago, end3 said:

It's all about trust Crash.  God gives progressively easier steps to learn trust.  Hell is the what's left over for those who didn't get the message.  George Bush I, "It's bad....bad".

Can your God actually create anything bad?

[mymistake]

1 hour ago, end3 said:

It's all about trust Crash.  God gives progressively easier steps to learn trust.  Hell is the what's left over for those who didn't get the message.  George Bush I, "It's bad....bad".

 

 

What steps?  I trusted God completely and it ruined my life.

 

Step 1.  Be born to parents who brainwash you from birth

Step 2.  Attend church at least once a week.  Three times a week if you really love Jesus.

Step 3.  Continue trusting God and wait for Him to tell you everything and make every decision in your life

Step 4.  Wonder why your life looks like it was planned by nobody at all.

Step 5.  Suffer

Step 6.  Wake up?  Maybe.

[quinntar]

1 hour ago, TrueScotsman said:

In the Christian conception of the world, hell would be the manifestation of god's holy wrath justly executed against sinners.  RC Sproul a famous Reformed theologian, said that those in heaven would weep for joy because they would finally understand the necessity of such justice as they would finally understand god's infinite holiness.  It is a reality which utterly debases everything in the universe of value except that which is derived from god, man only has value because he is created in the image of god, and the suffering of billions is viewed as justified because god created beings who by their nature could do nothing other than fall short of that glory.  The best way to understand the god of the Bible is that he is a glory monster, who will consume all existence to fuel his eternal quest for maximizing his glory even at the expense of the majority of humanity.

This I know

[disillusioned]

3 hours ago, theanticrash said:

Christians, in your mind

 

Is hell a bad place?

 

If it is a bad place, then explain why your God has created this bad place. If it is not a bad place, then explain why he has created this good place

 

The why is obvious. It's for other people to go to.

 

Stock answer to the actual question: hell is a place where God is not. A place of isolation from God. Since God is all that is good, His absence is evil itself.

[quinntar]

1 minute ago, disillusioned said:

 

The why is obvious. It's for other people to go to.

 

Stock answer to the actual question: hell is a place where God is not. A place of isolation from God. Since God is all that is good, His absence is evil itself.

Then he is not omnipresent.

[disillusioned]

11 minutes ago, theanticrash said:

Then he is not omnipresent.

 

Omnipresent except for hell, and then only by choice. I don't think this is a major contradiction. Hell doesn't need to be properly a "place".

[quinntar]

6 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

Omnipresent except for hell, and then only by choice. I don't think this is a major contradiction. Hell doesn't need to be properly a "place".

Well the only place I can think of that one could be separated from this God, would be unconscious death.

[quinntar]

 

[Guest end3]

6 hours ago, TrueScotsman said:

Didn't get what message?  The one left by anonymous ancient authors who wrote as human beings?  Why would a god make us trust in second hand anonymous reports from fellow fallible human beings in order to justify our eternal destiny?  Why not send Jesus now in 2018 when the majority of mankind could have made such a decision of sufficient evidence to trust or not trust his message?  Why send him to an illiterate remote location in the Middle East and have no contemporaries report on such events?  

You think if Jesus showed up now as He did before, there would be an inkling of belief?  Really?  Isn't this this point of the created with God at the first, then God with His people, then God as someone they could relate to, understand, and now God in ours through Grace.  And you have the mindset that somehow, God should play it over again? 

 

At what point do we trust, trust other people, and trust God. 

 

[Guest end3]

Again, the point is trust.  It's essentially the theme of the Bible.

 

So most everyone here is trustful of the other person that has been hurt by Christianity.  So you are employing trust to heal and become loving/fulfilled, etc.

 

Why should I deny the Bible when the theme is trust?  You're using it, but it's not true mechanism when the Bible says so?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mymistake]

19 minutes ago, end3 said:

 Why should I deny the Bible when the theme is trust? 

The theme of the Bible isn't trust.  Your assertion is unfounded.  The real theme of the Old Testament is that the Hebrews must obey Yahweh.  (Gentiles only exist to provide plunder for the Hebrew solders.)  The theme of the New Testament is that everyone must submit to Jesus or else Jesus is going to fuck you over for all eternity.

 

At no point does trust enter the equation.  OT Yahweh would smite you dead if you pissed him off.  NT Jesus will turn you over to be tortured forever if you fail to say the pledge of allegiance to Jesus.  That is not what trust means.

 

If a robber points a gun at you and tells you he will murder you unless you give him your wallet is that trust?  In both the NT and OT God threatens people.  Do what God says or else you will be killed or worse.

 

[sdelsolray]

28 minutes ago, end3 said:

Again, the point is trust.  It's essentially the theme of the Bible.

 

So most everyone here is trustful of the other person that has been hurt by Christianity.  So you are employing trust to heal and become loving/fulfilled, etc.

 

Why should I deny the Bible when the theme is trust?  You're using it, but it's not true mechanism when the Bible says so?

 

 

False equivalence makes for poor apologetics.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I'd have to agree with @mymistake on this one.  It's hard for me to trust god when the threat of hellfire and brimstone hangs over me as a consequence of not trusting god.  I trust that god would throw me into hell for not trusting him; the bible makes that pretty clear.  But that's not the kind of trust upon which a loving and mutually beneficial relationship can be built.  I'd assert that if god wants that kind of relationship with us, perhaps he could back off a little bit on the threats.

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, sdelsolray said:

 

False equivalence makes for poor apologetics.

Trust is trust...

 

Edit:  To add, then many here adopt a affinity for science and logic as their trust that won't hurt them.

[Guest end3]

41 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'd have to agree with @mymistake on this one.  It's hard for me to trust god when the threat of hellfire and brimstone hangs over me as a consequence of not trusting god.  I trust that god would throw me into hell for not trusting him; the bible makes that pretty clear.  But that's not the kind of trust upon which a loving and mutually beneficial relationship can be built.  I'd assert that if god wants that kind of relationship with us, perhaps he could back off a little bit on the threats.

So I would assume you would give your life for your family, but you think that would not be enough for them to decide they trust you?

[Guest end3]

1 hour ago, mymistake said:

The theme of the Bible isn't trust.  Your assertion is unfounded.  The real theme of the Old Testament is that the Hebrews must obey Yahweh.  (Gentiles only exist to provide plunder for the Hebrew solders.)  The theme of the New Testament is that everyone must submit to Jesus or else Jesus is going to fuck you over for all eternity.

 

At no point does trust enter the equation.  OT Yahweh would smite you dead if you pissed him off.  NT Jesus will turn you over to be tortured forever if you fail to say the pledge of allegiance to Jesus.  That is not what trust means.

 

If a robber points a gun at you and tells you he will murder you unless you give him your wallet is that trust?  In both the NT and OT God threatens people.  Do what God says or else you will be killed or worse.

 

That's a pretty narrow and biased view MM...js.

[quinntar]

Why are we talking about trust? Trust that the Christian God will save us from the bad or good place of hell.

 

If the God of the Bible creates good thing's, then why do most Christians admit it's a bad place to go? Hell can't be a bad place if a good God can only create good thing's.

[disillusioned]

5 hours ago, theanticrash said:

 

Hell can't be a bad place if a good God can only create good thing's.

 

I don't think this is really a tenet of Christianity. God created Satan, after all...

[mwc]

     I think if you're cold then hell is a good place but if you're already comfortable it could be bad.

 

          mwc

 

[mwc]

7 hours ago, end3 said:

You think if Jesus showed up now as He did before, there would be an inkling of belief?  Really? 

     Assuming the stories to be true then if we got a repeat today that played out nearly identical I would think that xians would fail that test of belief.  All of them would think it the trick of the devil and welcome his death (probably not on a cross this time of course).

 

     But xians failings aside what about everyone else?  What if they believed in him?  This magical man?  Maybe this time around he'd be willing to let scientists get in there and set up some proper tests?  Get some real results instead of just some "believe this" stuff?  Maybe cure some amputees?  Full blown AIDS could use some help.  There's a lot of incurable diseases that we could send his way this time.  Planes would be landing from all over the world.  You think people opening  a hole in a roof to lower some guy down was outrageous just wait until a modern god starts healing the unhealable.

 

          mwc

 

[quinntar]

17 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

 

I don't think this is really a tenet of Christianity. God created Satan, after all...

If you read the opening of Genesis it reads that God created everything good, in the beginning everything was good.

 

Genesis 1 New International Version (NIV)

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty,darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of Godwas hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vaultbetween the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place,and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.”23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds.And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may ruleover the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.

 

All thing's were created good.

[disillusioned]

Yes, but Genesis 1 can be read as referring only to the creation of the universe. Hell, Satan, etc may be thought of as existing outside the universe.

[quinntar]

2 minutes ago, disillusioned said:

Yes, but Genesis 1 can be read as referring only to the creation of the universe. Hell, Satan, etc may be thought of as existing outside the universe.

So the God of the Bible creates bad things too? Christians are not going to like that one little bit.

 

Doesn't the average Christian jump up and down when confronted by this exact dilemma, isn't it them who exclaim that God is a good God? That no evil (Darkness) can be found in him.